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Hi all, remember this car?      And this thread?? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3911577 Which contained this EV conversion???    Well, if you haven't go check out that thread to learn all about my history with this beautiful piece of Japanese engineering. And then forget all about it, because we're starting from scratch, baby! To be honest, I've forgotten what this EV needed to be finished, it was some pretty big stuff like:
And to be perfectly honest, I just love the look of the car and really want to drive it. So, after spending an hour or so staring at the car, wondering what might fit in the engine bay in place of a battery pack, I decided "gently caress it", the best way to measure the bay is to empty the bay. It took less than 3 hours to rip all EV-related components out of the car; leaving me with, once again, a rolling chassis. And then I put an engine in it. Stay tuned for more!
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Nov 10, 2022 01:24
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Ground floor.
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Nov 10, 2022 02:25
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Oh this is going to be good 
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Nov 10, 2022 02:41
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So, it's getting an engine. But what kind of engine? It's a clean slate. It doesn't have to be a rotary. Everything that made it "easy" to put a 13B and FD parts in this car is gone - wiring, cooling, fuel system, gone. Diff already has a front mounting bracket, no needed for a factory transmission and powerplant frame. I can put anything in there. Except, I really can't. The engine bay is freaking tiny. The engine is meant to tuck a little bit under the firewall, and the steering rack sits annoyingly high up, just 2 foot forward of it. The front is low as poo poo, radiators need to lie down somwhat, reducing space further. The bay is 26" tall, and 72cm wide, it's not big. So, I've got 24" x 72cm and 26" of height to play with. Enjoy the mixture of standards. What can I fit? 1JZ/2JZ/RB? Yep, people have done it. No idea how, probably tubular subframe, dropped steering rack, thicc boi radiator at the front, no AC, and somehow got the shifter to line up in the hole? Anyway these are big, heavy, old engines, and I don't need the performance potential that matches the price tag. LS? Hell yeah! Except, everyone who's done a LS FD says "it's great, it drives like a Corvette", welp. I already have a manual Corvette. In the same color. It weighs the same. It has an LS. I'd be making the same car again, except with the steering wheel on the other side. Oh well. Diesel? Hilarious. Shame about the low redline. I looked at the VW 1.8T engines for AGES, it looked like a cool and quirky swap for a FD, and guaranteed to annoy everyone at the Japanese car meets. Pros? Cheap as poo poo, can just get a whole car for 1k and take everything from it. Big power potential for cheap. Cons? Only came in FWD. Really don't wanna go down the custom transmission mathing solution - I looked into RX8 6-speed boxes with these, but in the end, there was a better option already from a different manufacturer. One of my colleagues DD's a S2000. I love it. I want one. They're expensive. But the engine/box combo? Amazing. A 2 litre 4 cylinder RWD unit that revs to S2000's are expensive and come as a soft top. Boo. FD's are prettier, and I already have one. But I don't like the rotary engine. We can make the best of both worlds. A S2000 powered FD. Power? A tiny bit more than a stock FD Redline? Surprisingly, even higher than the 13B Weight? Hard to work out, as people weigh engines with or without various parts attached. I can lift a fully dressed one in and out of a car with one other person, and I could do that to a 13B as well, so, similar? Gas mileage? "Reliability" (sorry)? Ability to pass emissions? The F20c motor feels like a good contender.  So, anyway, one 450 mile round trip later and my trusty Audi A6 comes in clutch to transport this surprisingly cheap, Facebook Marketplace F20 motor and transmission. But does it fit?! I got some measurements, it's 25" tall. So yeah, it fits, right?    Well, it kinda fits. Give me nother 30 minutes, and I'll make sure it fits for real.       Ok, it fits. The shifter is less than 1" forward of OEM FD. There is...some...clearance at the top and bottom. With a jack underneath, the hood closes. It fits.
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Nov 10, 2022 03:24
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Ohhhh gently caress Yes
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Nov 10, 2022 03:41
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well this is interesting. im definitely on team V8, but if you already have one of those, i get it. maybe a flathead ford V8 would have been interesting. tiny too. this is going to be boring and reliable, but should make an interesting final product
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Nov 10, 2022 07:06
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Raluek posted:well this is interesting. im definitely on team V8, but if you already have one of those, i get it. maybe a flathead ford V8 would have been interesting. tiny too. There's not really a V8 option available to me - getting a DOHC V8 to fit in the bay would be challenging, and LS (or any American V8's) engines aren't readily available in the UK, we're talking around £7-10k for an engine/trans combo. We have plenty of BMW, Audi, Merc, Jaguar, etc V8's, but they all have their challenges, not to mention their size. A turbo/blown F20 can reach 450-500hp  Updating coming in a bit!
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Nov 10, 2022 20:26
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Pomp and Circumcized posted:There's not really a V8 option available to me - getting a DOHC V8 to fit in the bay would be challenging, and LS (or any American V8's) engines aren't readily available in the UK, we're talking around £7-10k for an engine/trans combo. *cough*ROVER*cough* To be fair, you didn't ask for good ideas.
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Nov 10, 2022 21:00
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Boaz MacPhereson posted:*cough*ROVER*cough* Haha, not gonna lie, it was on my shortlist! Could just stick a nice little 3.9 carbed model in there with whatever tragic transmission it comes with and then take a step back, look at it, and think "why?". I've already got 3x V8 cars, I didn't want the FD to be another V8 but worse, haha.
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Nov 10, 2022 22:09
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Pomp and Circumcized posted:Haha, not gonna lie, it was on my shortlist! Could just stick a nice little 3.9 carbed model in there with whatever tragic transmission it comes with and then take a step back, look at it, and think "why?". The pictures and reactions alone might be worth the effort.
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Nov 10, 2022 22:11
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I'm sold. In for updates.
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Nov 10, 2022 22:28
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Nah not a 3.9 though those blocks are pretty good. Go for the TVR 5.2
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Nov 10, 2022 23:36
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Just to get everyone caught up, this project is about 80% complete, I'm waiting on a few parts which I need in order to finish off, but I should be able to get us up to the present in the next few days of updates. I really pushed through this project, working on my time off since I started in late August. I don't have many photos, I'm going to post what I have in order, so things may look like they are jumping around, it's because I did other things while waiting on parts. Ok, update time... I recovered the fuel tank and lines from storage, The fuel hoses were all old rubber, I replaced them with R9 hoses which are rated for ethanol. Checked the tank, it was spotless inside, pump works, level sender is a bit flakey but let's see if that clears itself up.  I ordered a new filter but it took too long to arrive so I refitted the old one - th eold one seemed to be clean internally, I back flushed it with brake cleaner and fuel and some other stuff probably. I painted the lines, found most of the fuel line clamps/bakcet things and ordered the ones which I couldn't find. Mazda parts are generally quite reasonable for this car, it seems.  The tank made it into the car. I got some new straps for it as well, as mine were rusted pretty bad and were missing the tabs for the splash guard.  Ok, engine time, lots of lining up and stuff, subframe came out a few times, lots of bits got chopped off to akkis the subframe to fit up to the engine.   Fortunately things like the exhaust headers fit and clear the steering column, etc, which is nice.  Once happy, I made up some moutning pads for the factory S2000 mounts, and poorly welded up the subframe. My MIG welding abilities have increased dramatically in the last few months, and I revisited much of this to tidy things up before paint, add extra supports, etc.   You'll notice the pads on the mounting points, I had to drop the subframe by 10mm to allow the AC compressor to clear the steering rack. I also had to relocate a port on the rack. Anyway, it's in, for real this time.   The radiator is there, mounted with wire, I made some mounts for that as well, as well as for the AC condenser. I reused one of the two FD oil coolers to cool the power steering fluid.  I also made a rear transmission mount, no picture of this for some reason, but here it is having been painted with an epoxy chassis paint, along with the front subframe:  The paint dries satin (after about 2 days), fortunately! I designed an adapter piece to mate the transmission to a 1310 Ujoint, basically a copy of this. Here's a 3D-printed test piece, just to make sure I didn't gently caress up any measurements.  Mine came out at less than half the price, and was made in a few days by a local machine shop. I also ordered a new drive shaft from a local shop, from a 1310 at one end to the FD flange at the other, I noticed some leaking around the ABS pump/solenoid unit, so I rebuilt that. No "after" pictures, but here it is in pieces: 
Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Nov 11, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 23:37
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I also made up some brackets for the PS pump (this is the TRW pump from a 2000's Vauxhall Astra, so I guess GM uses this in other vehicles as well?) A common electric pump for kit cars, etc. The S2000 has an electric rack, so I chose to re-use this pump from the old EV comversion. It lives in a new home so it has a new bracket and a shortened hoses.   I also reused the EV battery tray, and mounted it on this stupid crossmember thing, I have no idea where else to put it. I added bracing (not pictured) so that it doesn't wobble.   And I adapted the FD ECU mounts to mount the S2000 ECU in the factory location. 
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Nov 11, 2022 00:01
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Where the gently caress have you been?
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Nov 13, 2022 22:14
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Olympic Mathlete posted:Where the gently caress have you been? Building this mad car, clearly. I love it.
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Nov 14, 2022 04:36
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Lol, I've had a lot of work on, and only had a few months this year to work on the car, so I've been really piling through it. Im currently working abroad with terrible internet, I'll try to get some updates out, to be honest it's mostly a straightforward swap, so there isn't too much too much to go through, just a few quirks of the FD to deal with!
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Nov 16, 2022 21:50
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Holy poo poo you madman. 
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Nov 18, 2022 16:06
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Hell yes. Yesss.
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Nov 18, 2022 19:20
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Update time. We did wiring: Open barel splices:  Wiring:  In the top left you can see the electronic throttle control module - the later model S2000s had this, it was external rather than built in to the ECM. I couldn't find any for sale in the UK so here's one from an Acura TSX form the USA (Thanks, eBay Global Shipping).  Wiring:     I used a fuse/relay box from a Jaguar S-type, leftover from a previous project. It happened to contain just enough fuses and relays, and came with plenty of long-enough wires:  The slightly-melted 60A fuses were from the fire-damaged Corvette's old fuse box:  I bought a new AC condenser and mounted it:  Valve cover came off for paint:   Clutch pedal needed a neutral safety switch, here's one from an MX5, the pedal was modified to accept it:  The brake hoses which run along the top of the firewall (to the ABS unit and back) wouldn't work with the engine in place, so I bought stainless hoses and made my own assembly which tucks into the transmission tunnel just a little bit:    I needed to relocate a port on the power steering rack to clear the AC compressor. All went well but it leaked through a few pinholes, and no matter what I tried, I coudln't weld them shut due to the contamination. So I JB-welded the poo poo out of it and it's been fine:  
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Dec 13, 2022 23:57
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Third time turning the key after a few attempts while I guess it primed: https://imgur.com/a/dCChPZh (sound on) I'm amazed that this thing just fired right up without any attention. Just plug and go!
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Dec 16, 2022 02:05
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Well that was quick. Nice job.
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Dec 16, 2022 02:18
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Cool frankencar, hell yeah
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Dec 31, 2022 03:02
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Time is short, so here's some bits I did in December: Painted the coil plug cover. Gloss rather than wrinkle because that's what I had on hand.  Here's the accelerator pedal position sensor that the later S2000's had, it's a stange setup, still a cable pedal, but with this external sensor. The throttle control module (ETCM) is external as well. But this sensor goes into the ECU. Whereas the TPS goes into the ETCM. The ECU and ETCM communicate via two wires, either a UART or just PWM send/recieve, whatever. It's a really strange half-and-half system that looks like Honda just grafted drive-by-wire to an existing ECU.  Digital dash - this was from the EV project, just re purposed for this build. Copied the S2000 speedometer, it all draws as images. Change a few features, removed the efficiency/wh per mile graph, replaced with bigger warning icons and a current/daily trip display. Added a GPS unit to handle compass, altitude, and also a backup speedometer for testing etc, mimiced the S2000 coolant and fuel level sensors. It's still a work in progress, the character LCDs at the bottom I plan to change for OLED, the smaller screens I already have round IPS TFT's for, they look much nicer. Struggling to source some 4.5" round TFT's which aren't MIPI-DSI, am hopign for either SPI or RGB (parallel) round ones. Need to 3D print the whole screen mounting solution, right now it's vinyl wrapped PVC sheet, hot glued into place. At some point I'll 3D scan the unit and make up a whole back, complete with mounts, etc, but will wait for the final displays to apper first.  The diff had one chipped spider/worm/torsen gear tooth, so I got a good second hand replacement and swapped it out. New bearings and seals well.   Had a mishap on the front subframe, looks like it warped slightly when welding, my bad, should have welded it while in the car, I did think about it at the time. One hole wasn't quite aligned right, and putting the bolt in trashed the nut inside the frame rail.  Solution? Cut a slot, use a bottle jack to spread it back out, weld in place. Then make up some studs and weld them into the now-trashed nuts inside the frame rails.       It now mounts up nice and square, the lower control arms fit without issue, and the engine position seems to be the same as before welding the mounts, so I think we saved it. The holes in the frame rails were welded back closed, epoxy painted, and a load of paint was sprayed into the inside to help prevent rust. Made this surround for the shifter, to keep the outside out. There's a second layer in the S2000 for another gasket, I need to make the surround for this and add it to the stack.  Rear brakes were removed, treated with rust remover, painted up, rebuild kits, etc, the works.      This is the rust remover, it's prett good, here's some before, afters.   Rear subframe got the same treatment, it got a coat of rust converter on it as well before epoxy paint.     I also bought an electroplating (zinc/nickel) kit to coat the fasteners and small parts. You can see the yellow passivate coating on some of the parts above.  Front hubs/arms were cleaned up, rusty parts wire rust removed and treated with rust converter.  Brake lines arrived (again), ready to fit. I made up a little heat shield for one of the plastic mounts which goes near the exhaust. Brakes and clutch all bled as normal, all seems good so far.    I made up these braided brake lines, much cheaper than buying ready-made ones, they are made from the off-cuts of the longer lines.  A bracket to hold the radiator hose joiners - due to the long distance for the radiator hoses and the odd layout in the bay, I opted to mount joiners partway along - without this, the hoses really wanted to cut corners right into the alternator, and wanted to take the space of other components. In hindsight, I could maybe have just used long hoses through the same clamp, but sometimes that's just how things work out.   Lots of time spent on wiring, I believe wiring is now done, still need to check if the S2000 ECU will accept the AC request signal from the RX7, the RX7 does some intersting things with voltages from the fan resistor as part of the AC request signal, I may need to run this into a circuit to clean it up. Also need to interpret the check engine light signal and test a few other things. The color bands on the harnesses are to let me know which harness is which, the Mazda wiring diagrams use the same reference colours for the harnesses.    The engine is now in the car, hopefully for good. It fired up immediately with the key, new things like the clutch, gearbox, etc all work fine. All that's left is to bleed the coolant, finish the exhaust, sort out a few programming things on the dash, vacuum test and fill the AC, figure out intake pipework, maybe a front strut brace. Stuff not in pictures is adding a port on the intake manifold for the brake booster, the pipe for that, power steering pipework and testing, AC lines, and all the other little bits. Engine runs fine, we only ran it for a minute, but has loads of white smoke, so maybe the head gasket has gone, I dunno. There was never white smoke before, it might just be condensation or whatever. Engine did overheat a little bit when testing previously, due to air locks. But not by a lot (thermostat is 78C, highest we hit was 105C). Need to get the coolant bled, run it for more than 1 minute at a time, check compression, coolant in oil, exhaust in coolant, etc etc, and go from there.
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Dec 31, 2022 22:45
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Aw man, I was looking forward to it being EV. Oh well. This is pretty darn neat too, and you already got it running!
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Jan 1, 2023 03:03
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kastein posted:Aw man, I was looking forward to it being EV. Oh well. This is pretty darn neat too, and you already got it running! Yep so many friends and family have said the same thing - it wasn't an easy decision to make the change back. Also I noticed that I typoed in the thread title, lol Update soon.
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Jan 17, 2023 23:03
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Yeah I would have liked to see the EV version too, but can't help but think the F20 is a great result.
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Jan 18, 2023 02:24
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BuckyDoneGun posted:Yeah I would have liked to see the EV version too, but can't help but think the F20 is a great result. EV would be cool. V8 would be cool. this is... fine. im sure it will be a great car in the end regardless.
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Jan 18, 2023 06:06
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Raluek posted:EV would be cool. V8 would be cool. this is... fine. im sure it will be a great car in the end regardless. Which V8 would you have put in there?
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Jan 19, 2023 14:00
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Pomp and Circumcized posted:Which V8 would you have put in there? since it's a light, compact sports car i really dont think the LS can be beat. i understand you don't want to do that since you already have one of those, but it seems like a "more of a good thing" type situation to me. if it was just for lols instead of trying to make a good car, those old flathead fords are tiny and would be hilarious to see in there.
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Jan 20, 2023 06:18
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Pomp and Circumcized posted:Which V8 would you have put in there? Mercedes M113K including the air 2 water intercooler system.
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Jan 20, 2023 16:14
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If I was building my own, I'd go with an LS for all the usual reasons, plus I live somewhere where they're available unlike the UK, but for watching someone else build on the internet, that's boring now. Given the usual selection of DOHC V8's are gunna be a bitch to fit, about all I can think of that I'd be interested in seeing would be one of the motorbike based V8's like the Hartley as found in the Atom 500. Never seen one of them done, 10,000 rpm, good times. No idea if they fit better though:
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Jan 20, 2023 21:21
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Raluek posted:since it's a light, compact sports car i really dont think the LS can be beat. i understand you don't want to do that since you already have one of those, but it seems like a "more of a good thing" type situation to me. Where would I find one, and how much would it cost me?
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Jan 22, 2023 02:57
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...about as much as the 3 or 4 powertrains you've already picked up or planned for it since the last time it drove? Like I'm not trying to be super harsh or anything and the s2k motor is neat but idk, you've bushwacked a very odd path to get here. I'm pretty sure that in your shoes I'd have put a 13b back in it by now
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Jan 22, 2023 20:56
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yeah idk, but probably less than just a tesla swap even. i think the going rate for an actual aluminum motor is around $5k with trans?
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Jan 22, 2023 22:27
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Turbo Fondant posted:...about as much as the 3 or 4 powertrains you've already picked up or planned for it since the last time it drove? what
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Jan 22, 2023 22:52
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Raluek posted:yeah idk, but probably less than just a tesla swap even. i think the going rate for an actual aluminum motor is around $5k with trans? i couldn't find a drop in ls motor with trans for less than £15k all-in, the f20 swap has cost me less than £4k i re-sold most of the EV swap parts and came close to breaking even i feel as though there's no interest in the project as it stands, i'll let the thread die for now and will resurrect it when i put my "5th" powertrain in, as long as it a v8
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Jan 22, 2023 22:57
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Dude's already posted his considered reasoning guys.Pomp and Circumcized posted:It's a clean slate. It doesn't have to be a rotary. Everything that made it "easy" to put a 13B and FD parts in this car is gone - wiring, cooling, fuel system, gone. Diff already has a front mounting bracket, no needed for a factory transmission and powerplant frame. I can put anything in there. Pomp and Circumcized posted:There's not really a V8 option available to me - getting a DOHC V8 to fit in the bay would be challenging, and LS (or any American V8's) engines aren't readily available in the UK, we're talking around £7-10k for an engine/trans combo.
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Jan 22, 2023 23:01
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Pomp and Circumcized posted:i couldn't find a drop in ls motor with trans for less than £15k For what its worth, I've been enjoying reading since I found the last thread but have nothing to contribute. Looking forward to seeing that thing back on the road, even if its using a steam engine built out of an old water heater.
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Jan 22, 2023 23:38
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Cat Hatter posted:For what its worth, I've been enjoying reading since I found the last thread but have nothing to contribute. Looking forward to seeing that thing back on the road, even if its using a steam engine built out of an old water heater. Same, I shut the gently caress up anymore if I can help it. But yes I'm enjoying the thread and gently caress that one weird guy throwing shade at your motor choice. 
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Jan 23, 2023 01:44
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