|
Hello everyone, you should read the water margin, and talk about it with us What is the Water Margin The Water Margin (Also known as Outlaws of the Marsh, and All Men are Brothers) is a 14th-15th century Chinese novel, set in the early 11th Century. It tells the stories of a number of outlaws, who through various circumstances, band together to fight against (and eventually for) the Song Dynasty. Why you should read the Water Margin The Water Margin is written in vernacular Chinese (rare for the period) and has a strikingly modern style. All of the characters have extremely interesting circumstances, and many of their struggles are political commentary against the rigid nature of Chinese society of the time. Many have gone on to be iconic in Chinese pop culture, similar to those from Romance of the Three Kingdoms, or Journey to the West. Beyond the plot and historical interest, its also really really funny. Who are these dorks I (Natalie) am reading this alongside my cohost and fellow forums member Cherrie. I am reading this in English while she is reading it in the original Chinese. Each chapter we produce a podcast episode, where we discuss the plot, and go over cultural and historical things that may not be clear to a modern audience. We try to have fun with it. Why did you make this thread We started reading and making episodes for this a few months ago, but it turns out most of the listeners are goons. So I thought this might be a fun place to discuss the story. We are currently on the 4th chapter, but since there are 96 more to go, there is plenty of time to start reading it! Which Translation? While there are many translations of the book available, we are going with the one done by Sidney Shapiro, who moved to China in the 1940s, and became a naturalized citizen in the PRC. He is an interesting character in his own right, and his translation has a certain down to earth character that we think fits well with the original. His copies are usually titled 'Outlaws in the Marsh' Chapters Audio Commentary for All Current Chapters - https://www.withchinesecharacteristics.com/water-margins Chapter 1: "Zhang the Divine Teacher Prays to Dispel a Plague, Marshal Hong Releases Demons by Mistake" Chapter 2: "Arms Instructor Wang Goes Secretly to Yanan Prefecture, Nine Dragins Shi Jin Wreaks Havoc in Shi Family Village" Chapter 3: "Master Shi Leaves Huayin County at Night, Major Lu Pummels the Lord of the West" Ch 4: Sagacious Lu Puts Mount Wutai in an Uproar, Squire Zhao Repairs Wenshu Monastey Ch 5: Nine Dragons Shi Jin Robs in Red Pine Forest; Sagacious Lu Burns down Waguan Monastery Ch 6: The Tattooed Monk Uproots a Willow Tree; Lin Chong enters the White Tiger Inner Sanctum by Mistake SerCypher fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Feb 1, 2023 |
#
?
Dec 8, 2022 20:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 30, 2024 14:08 |
|
|
Oh this is very exciting. This is one of the four major classics I haven't gotten to reading, and I'm very interested to see where this goes. Fake edit: Any reason why you went for the Shapiro translation? I'm not as familiar with the differences and why. Kangxi fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Dec 8, 2022 |
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2022 21:03
|
|
|
Kangxi posted:Oh this is very exciting. This is one of the four major classics I haven't gotten to reading, and I'm very interested to see where this goes. Spoilers but its going to go to Mount Liang.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2022 21:06
|
|
|
I always wanted to read this!
|
|
#
?
Dec 9, 2022 04:01
|
|
|
Chapter 5: Sagacious Lu Attends a Wedding Official Chapter Title: Drunk, the Little King Raises the Gold−Spangled Bed Curtains; Lu the Tattooed Monk Throws Peach Blossom Village into Confusion Listen: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1348048/11916507 Stars of Destiny: Lu Zhishen (Sagacious Lu) Tiger−Fighting General Li Zhong Little Conqueror Zhou Tong In this chapter we continue the Journey of Sagacious Lu and his antics. If you need an image of what Sagacious Lu looks like, here is a good illustration. Just a massive hairy fat rear end dude. A real walrus of a man.  [
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 23:02
|
|
|
cool book but im not going to listen to your podcast
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2022 04:26
|
|
|
A human heart posted:cool book but im not going to listen to your podcast No worries! Just thought it might be fun to talk about with people. Edit: I have done a bunch of LPs in the past,so I just kind of considered this as a book version. If its against the forum rules or something I can ask for the thread to be deleted. SerCypher fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Dec 23, 2022 |
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2022 05:19
|
|
|
SerCypher posted:No worries! Just thought it might be fun to talk about with people. I started reading this book because of this thread, and have found it quite entertaining. I like the extra context y’all provide in the podcast. Hope you keep it up!
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2022 21:52
|
|
|
thetedster posted:I started reading this book because of this thread, and have found it quite entertaining. I like the extra context y’all provide in the podcast. Hope you keep it up! Thanks!! Are you also reading the Shapiro translation?
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2022 07:40
|
|
|
Two chapters in and I'm really enjoying the commentary. And the duck football facts.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2022 18:23
|
|
|
anilEhilated posted:Two chapters in and I'm really enjoying the commentary. And the duck football facts. thank you! i knew that was some precious research time WELL SPENT!!
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2022 20:50
|
|
|
SerCypher posted:Thanks!! Are you also reading the Shapiro translation? Yep, and although the edition I have is riddled with typos (or poor OCR), the translation makes the story feel like something that could have been written recently much less 700 years ago.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2022 00:36
|
|
|
Chapter 6: Sagacious Lu Burns down a Monastery Official Chapter Title: Nine Dragons Shi Jin Robs in Red Pine Forest; Sagacious Lu Burns down Waguan Monastery Listen: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1348048/11976256 Stars of Destiny: Lu Zhishen (Sagacious Lu) 9 Dragons Shi Jin Synopsis: In this episode Sagacious Lu visits a monastery, and meet up with some old friends. There are also some slight disagreements he has with a Daoist Priest and a Buddhist Monk. By the end of the Chapter he finally reaches the great Xiangguo monastery and is put in an important position there. Other Topics Discussed: Division of Buddhist Monks (Clear vs Listening) Kitchen Gods The Commentaries of 金圣叹 Being a Man of Valor as opposed to just a person who knows how to fight. References: Paper on the Monk System in the Ming and Qing Dynasties http://rdbk1.ynlib.cn:6251/qw/Paper/635647 Commentaries by 金圣叹 http://www.guoxue123.com/xiaosuo/jd/jpshz/index.htm If anyone is curious about other items brought up in the text, please let me know. A listener from the forums suggested the commentaries of 金圣叹, so we (well Cherrie) have started perusing those as well. Someone asked what the definition of a bowl is, or a large bowl, given Lu Zhishen's crazy drinking (10-30 bowls at a time). That one is a bit of a tough question as it's not really a standardized measurement, and is probably closest to something like "a glass of wine". I'd assume about 4-8 oz. Chinese wine during this period (黃酒) is very strong though (close to 20%) so it's a lot of booze! SerCypher fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Feb 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2023 21:16
|
|
|
Just want to say that i loved the book since i read it a few years ago (also the Shapiro version), and the pod has been great!!
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 19:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 30, 2024 14:08 |
|
|
Chapter 7: Making sport of a respectable woman in times of peace and order Official Chapter Title: The Tattooed Monk Uproots a Willow Tree; Lin Chong enters the White Tiger Inner Sanctum by Mistake Listen: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1348048/12142941 Stars of Destiny: Lin Chong Sagacious Lu (Lu Zhishen) Synopsis: In this chapter Sagacious Lu continues his esteemed position as master of the vegetable gardens, and finds a new sworn brother, Lin Chong. Unfortunately Lin Chong has a hot wife and a lecherous boss, which is a recipe for disaster in Song Dynasty China. Other Topics Discussed: Sworn Brotherhood Crows What being a virtuous wife means in the time period. Elaborate plots to frame people Is it physically possible to rip a large tree out of the ground with your hands. References: Research paper on sworn brotherhood https://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/scriptorium/jyebay.html Commentaries by 金圣叹 http://www.guoxue123.com/xiaosuo/jd/jpshz/index.htm I feel like more than some others, this chapter has some good social commentary criticizing the Chinese Government system (the book was banned off and on again historically). Lin Chong is a guy who has done well in society through martial prowess, and is theoretically the kind of guy you want in your military, but he lacks true access to power. Gao's son has much stronger social connections, so despite all of Lin's achievements, he's driven out, like Wang Jin was in chapter 2. Overall warriors and soldiers were not valued highly by many dynasties, and the militaries would start to be staffed with sycophants rather than anyone actually competent. SerCypher fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Feb 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 08:19
|
|