Autumn/Spring CSPAM Feedback Thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > Autumn/Spring CSPAM Feedback Thread

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

vyelkin posted:

Majorian I am begging you to stop fighting with people giving feedback in the feedback thread.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2022 13:03

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 10, 2024 09:20

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

I went ahead an ungassed the Stewie Griffin thread. As an avid Family Guy fan since the very beginning, I have been enjoying it and would hate to see the forums lose it.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2022 16:09

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

lobotomy molo posted:

azathoth, can you weigh in on why so many more cspammers have been getting banned? it seems like an obvious trend (+400%), but so far only crusty nutsack has chosen to comment on the situation (by denying it exists).

your feedback would be very much appreciated.

I had been reading the thread for a while, and came up with the permas, bans, and probes that were justified based on posting in the C-SPAM thread, and that is it. I didn't read the GBS thread beyond seeing the occasional report, as another admin did the same thing that I did. For the C-SPAM thread, we arrived at what we did based on the posts the posters made in C-SPAM, not because we were saying something like "well if we want to ban <X> from the C-SPAM thread, we need to find someone from the GBS thread to make the numbers even". That would be asinine because we don't moderate C-SPAM based on what GBS does, and GBS doesn't moderate based on what C-SPAM does.

Your whole argument is predicated on the idea that there was a forum war between C-SPAM and GBS, and that if we did something to C-SPAM, we had to do the same to GBS and vice versa and that's just dumb.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2022 22:04

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

redneck nazgul posted:

the impression given was that every permaban from GBS for the war thread was met with one from CSPAM, which checks out per the leper's colony. more people got regular bans from the GBS thread, but that's also the thread that had more people posting in it.

it may have not been intentional but i can't blame someone on either side looking at the results and going "that side got off easy, there must have been some sort of negotiation or tit-for-tat"

That is my memory of how it shook out, though we didn't have a goal of "one for one" at any point. We read the threads and came up with what we came up with based on the posts people made, not out of some weird desire for parity.

I thought that it roughly ended up being about even on permas and more bans for the GBS thread, with the GBS thread getting more if anything, but I'm phoneposting so I couldn't easily trawl the Leper's Colony looking for it.

I can understand people wanting to view it as one "side" getting off easy (which I'm guessing GBS thinks about C-SPAM too but whatever) but the idea that GBS and C-SPAM are at war was the same bullshit dynamic that made the thread into such a problem. Each thread had problems, we addressed the C-SPAM one and as near as I can tell the GBS one got addressed too. It just so happened that we had roughly equal permas and GBS got a couple more bans.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2022 22:38

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

Brain Candy posted:

my man, there doesn't have to be anyone going 'nyah nyah i'm going to go get those cspamers' in some elaborate plot and nothing mentioned requires one. please be a materialist

imagine a situation with two police districts, and one has 400% more arrests than the other. now if you ask anyone who is working in either of the districts they don't twiddle their mustache (because cop mustache's are too short) and they don't necessarily think they are doing anything differently if you asked them, just making calls based on what they actually see

but the 400% happens for reasons that have largely nothing to do with the individual qualities or virtues of the people making the decisions in the moment. this is how police think they aren't racist even as they arrest way more Black people, because liberalism has done this cool slight of hand where you're supposed to evaluate what you feel or believe instead of what you do

literally no one has to actually think the thought 'i should come down harder on x or balance with y' for that to be the practical result

Ah, my bad, I read Fly Molo's posts as implying exactly that and felt the need to refute the assertion.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2022 22:50

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

lobotomy molo posted:

az, i sincerely hope your job has nothing to do with numbers, or you're just having an off day. again, just for the record:

cspam:
bans: 14
permabans: 8
total # bans: 22

gbs:
bans: 7
permabans: 2
total # bans: 9

that's +200% more bans for cspam and +400% more permabans. if you recall it was around equal and gbs got slightly more bans, your recollection is completely wrong. speculation about the reason why cspammers keep getting banned so much more often is beyond the scope of what i'm allowed to discuss, but the difference in outcomes is a plain material fact.

exactly. every time i get banned it just makes me nicer

For the record, I was only referring to the big wave of bans and probes that we did, not to the life of the thread or whatever longer timetable you are using. I also have no interest in comparing numbers even if you list the times and bans, because I don't really care how GBS mods or doesn't mod. I'm not gonna put through more or less bans or probes because they put through more or less, and comparing the two is useless because of it.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2022 23:52

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

lobotomy molo posted:

but you’re an admin? you should care how other forums moderate. unless you’re a cspam-only admin, that’s absolutely within your purview. that’s certainly not how other admins act.

okay, that’s very disappointing to hear but thank you for the honest answer. i don’t know how moderation on SA will ever improve if the old bad lowtax standard of “mods can do whatever they want in their feifs, I don’t care if problems exist, I just don’t ever want to hear about them” is still the SOP. if we can’t discuss or compare moderation itt and you don’t care what we think, all bans are justified, then what is there to provide feedback about?

I am not obligated to care about GBS and I stopped reading threads there quite a while ago when the OSHA and Schadenfreude threads got boring. If a GBS mod needs help with something, I'm happy to oblige, usually running a longer probe or ban, I'm happy to look it over but otherwise no, I mostly stick to politics forums. It isn't exactly helpful for me to have in depth opinions on how to moderate somewhere I don't really post.

As for feedback, I do listen to your feedback, but just because you have a particular perspective, that does not mean that I must automatically agree. I will always consider what you have to say but I'm sorry, I just don't find your arguments compelling.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2022 00:17

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

I'm always going to put forward what I think is best, but I do my best to listen and take what I am told to heart about mistakes or alternative ways of doing things. We've had circular discussions about this on many occasions and at the end of the day, I think you and I have very different ideas about how to mod C-SPAM. I just don't know that there's a common ground we can find on this.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2022 00:49

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

some plague rats posted:

Hey Azathoth while you're here what criteria are you using to select mods and how did it recommend Majorian. Honest question

For Majorian, he did a good job as IK of the U/R thread. Overall, we look at threads that don't have mods reading them, then look at the most frequent posters and see who we think would be good. Overall, I think Majorian has done a good job as a mod and that the U/R thread is much better for him being a full mod and being able to see reports. This little spat with AiT being an exception, of course, but I think he will learn from it.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2022 01:12

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

ted hitler hunter posted:

Why doesn't mods get/request PTO when they should?

This is part of why we have pushed to have a lot more mods, and why we just added more. When I came on back in October of last year, there were periods early on where I was the only mod who was not at least partially away, and that creates a powerful disincentive to step away. I have done some of the dumbest poo poo of my tenure when I didn't feel I could step away and was stressed by life outside the forums.

Now, we actively encourage mods to take time away, either from the forums entirely, or just from mod stuff. I hope that posting is still fun for every mod, I'd never tell them to not post if they like it. Getting people to do it remains an ongoing effort.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2022 01:44

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

some plague rats posted:

Okay so how the hell are they picking you guys. Az can you please be specific what the selection criteria is because from the outside it's completely baffling

We don't pick someone just because they are the most prolific posters in any given thread, Jazerus for example posts in a bunch of different threads and seemed like they would do a good job so when we discussed candidates, someone brought their name up. We discussed them, along with other people and came to consensus to make an offer. During these discussions, we look at rapsheets and post histories, at least as much as we can. If someone's a prolific poster, no one's reading through 40k posts to see if they'd be a good mod.

It's the same criteria that got you picked as an IK basically. Someone thought you'd do a good job, it got discussed, no one said "wait, isn't that the poster who did <some creepy thing>" and then a star got given out.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2022 02:02

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

AnimeIsTrash posted:

Lmfao come on dude, you can just step down.

I will one day, but not today and probably not tomorrow. I'll keep doing this as long as it's still a rewarding experience and I have the time, and while this thread isn't exactly a barrel of laughs, I do still overall find it a worthwhile use of my time.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2022 02:03

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

some plague rats posted:

So are new moderators still largely selected by the existing mods? Because that definitely seems like it would create self-perpetuating issues, right?

It's the same system that selected you, so unless you consider yourself to be an insider candidate who wholeheartedly supports the existing status quo, I'd say that there is room in there for a variety of different types of people, including some you wouldn't normally expect.

We also do listen to suggestions when people say someone would be a good mod or IK.

Beyond that, at some point the system does self select, as we can only make mods or IKs out of people who think it is a good use of time to be a volunteer internet janitor for no pay and that flat out eliminates a good chunk of posters.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2022 02:18

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

some plague rats posted:

I was put forward by the PYF mods, who are normal, and made a good decision because I'm great, but I feel like there would be an issue when mods are being selected by the likes of flavius and crusty nutsack and squizzle, to pull names from the Bad Era? Was there ever a point where you were like okay, this well is completely poisoned? Anyway make Paul a mod

And the PYF mods were all picked by other PYF mods who were picked by ... At some point in that chain, you're gonna find a normal person being picked by a dumbass. That sort of thing can and does happen.

For C-SPAM, it is my understanding that Dreylad and vyelkin were appointed directly by the admins specifically to help break the negative feedback loop that the Bad Era (as apt a term as any) had created between mods and the community and every mod we have today, myself included, are part of their "coaching tree" to borrow a sports analogy, save Crusty. In the same way, I got the red star because there wasn't representation on the admin team for the politics forums, and not having any admins that had anything more than a passing familiarity with C-SPAM was another root cause of the Bad Era.

I think we've made a lot of progress in getting better moderation over the last 18 months, but we're all volunteers picked by volunteers who thought this was a good idea, and if folks do have ideas for someone we haven't considered who might be a good mod, we do welcome suggestions. The biggest issue we still have with that is that we will likely agree with your suggestion and probably even offered them a mod or IK star at some point and they refused.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2022 02:43

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

lobotomy molo posted:

why bother spending any more time discussing this? the admin already weighed in and said any such comparison is invalid and all of the cspam bans were justified on their own merits.

it’s time to move on, heal, and reset the clock

lmao trying to hide behind my legs is seriously the best response you've got to that?

# ¿ Dec 16, 2022 02:53

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

im an AMERICAN posted:

oh hey look a new thread title

also you can't use leper colony for data collection because accounts can be banned without entries in the Leper Colony

We only do that for you and seraph, as for whatever reason you both seem to enjoy flaunting your wealth via the Leper's Colony.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2022 02:59

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 10, 2024 09:20

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

Gonna close this up now, thank you all for your feedback. If anyone has further comments, my inbox is always open, you can also email if you don't have PMs (or prefer email) azathoth@somethingawful.com.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2022 22:17

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > Autumn/Spring CSPAM Feedback Thread