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Even if the cure-plan only has a 50% chance of working, killing Ellie without her consent is the morally correct thing to do.
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Mar 17, 2023 06:47
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All things being equal, i.e. in a situation where Ellie actually had the agency to make a choice that mattered, rather than the illusion of choice or no choice at all... could Ellie consent to being operated on in a way that would likely result in her death? tbh I'd argue that, yeah, she could, but I suspect that's a controversial take.
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Mar 17, 2023 06:59
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Open Source Idiom posted:All things being equal, i.e. in a situation where Ellie actually had the agency to make a choice that mattered, rather than the illusion of choice or no choice at all... could Ellie consent to being operated on in a way that would likely result in her death? She lists off all the people who got turned over the series and how terrible she feels about it, she 100% would consent at the least.
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Mar 17, 2023 07:21
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socialsecurity posted:She lists off all the people who got turned over the series and how terrible she feels about it, she 100% would consent at the least. Oh yeah, I absolutely believe she *would* consent. I'm asking whether -- morally speaking -- she *could*.
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Mar 17, 2023 07:35
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You know Marlene would phrase it like "Hey, wanna heroically sacrifice your life to save all of humanity, being remembered as history's greatest hero? Or selfishly keep living and doom humanity to a slow extinction? It's totally your choice though  "
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Mar 17, 2023 08:12
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Even if the cure-plan only has a 50% chance of working, killing Ellie without her consent is the morally correct thing to do. 
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Mar 17, 2023 08:19
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I think the only people who made morally defensible choices on how to live in the mushpocalypse were Bill and his husband and the Colorado people, unless there was sinister underpinning I forgot. Folks need crops and walls.
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Mar 17, 2023 08:51
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e: My bad
Bright Bart fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 09:21
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Bright Bart posted:e: My bad You made me look up specifics, so I am responding this anyway. Sanitary practices for executions are enshrined in state law. Here are excerpts from Florida’s current protocol.  The executioner who pushes the plunger is not necessarily a doctor, but licensed medical professionals must examine the condemned and place the line.  They must also all be verifiably sober. 
Platystemon fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 09:51
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i think ellie would have gillick competence personally
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Mar 17, 2023 10:47
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Jerusalem posted:Still gets me that Marlene snaps at Joel that he KNOWS that Ellie would agree to the sacrifice.... the sacrifice that Marlene explicitly did NOT ask her to make. Where was your confidence then, lady? I think Ellie would do it, especially after all the poo poo she's seen, and the survivor's guilt she's racked up but I also think Marlene is torn up about it to the point she knows what she's doing is terrible and she wants to spare them the weight and horror of the situation. Also hence why she doesn't just kill Joel, she sees herself as a "good person" and murdering a guy after all he went through to bring Ellie to them is not something a good person does (then again, neither is stiffing someone on a deal - where's his fuckin' truck and supplies, lady?). She's already killing her best friend's child, killing an innocent (lol) man is not the act of hero fighting to restore lost rights and freedoms. (Also, those ragging on her Marlene dumping Ellie with Fedra misses the point that she placed her somewhere she was guaranteed to be safe, housed, fed and educated and trained with skills to help her survive - and as head honcho of the Boston group, if she says 'never target this location', no one's gonna cross her. And there will be no worrying about ration cards or random bombings or the criminal poo poo going on in the QZ, Fedra are naturally gonna give their own a better deal, they hold all the aces.) For all everyone's making GBS threads on them, I actually buy that most of the Fireflies genuinely mean well, want an end to dictatorship and the lawlessness outside the QZs, and restore democracy to whoever's left. But they're low on numbers, and in denial about how irreversibly hosed everything is: the old world ain't coming back, and 15+ years of guerrilla warfare against Fedra with little to actually show for it has worn them down physically and mentally to a point where they are so desperate, they begin to take horrendous short cuts. The best thing for the Fireflies going forward would be to just focus on settling and building a community ala Jackson. Make it safe and secure, get fortifications all sorted, then just send/broadcast the word to people and gradually expand over time instead of trying to overthrow QZs.
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Mar 17, 2023 11:26
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My favourite trivia about Marlene is that she arranged for a woman in very late stage pregnancy to leave the QZ and then hosed up the rendezvous. Rather unsurprisingly the pregnant woman was dead within hours. When I see her approach to prenatal care it certainly makes me trust her on paediatrics. bucketybuck fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 12:01
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Ellie definitely would have consented which is why it's really dumb to explicitly tell Joel she didn't. Just lie and say you did Marlene (I'm not saying that's what Marlene should have done in an absolute sense, just that if they were gonna murder Ellie they are already going to hell, lying isn't gonna make it worse)
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Mar 17, 2023 13:38
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XboxPants posted:Even that is fair. I just don't care whether the show "earned" my engagement. I enjoy thinking about interesting things, I'm not gonna punish myself to spite the writers for failing. For context, this is the attitude I've developed after spending hours and hours in quarantine during COVID, first watching good new shows, then rewatching good shows I'd seen before, then eventually watching kinda mediocre shows and just making the best of trying to find whatever interesting aspects I could. I find I can make just about anything interesting if I really want to, so it makes me feel like its on me if I don't. It's like, I just take media as prompts for me to think about life and myself and humanity and philosophy. Your take here of "I like what I feel the storytellers are telling me and I would rather think about that" is just baffling to me I understand what the story is meant to be and how we're supposed to see Joel as the baddie here because he's stopped the cure happening for everyone. He's done it because he wants to protect his new daughter since he couldn't protect the old one. Cool, fine But the text of the show doesn't show that and that's way more interesting to talk about since there's actually something to talk about with it. I get the THEME but I don't think it worked at all - nearly everyone around me who hasn't played the game dropped off the show before it was done and the few who didn't I've not spoken to anyone who thinks Joel was in the wrong. The fireflies are baddies, he killed the baddies. Job done. They could have worked to make it NOT feel that way, but they didn't. He's rescuing the main character from a load of idiots who want to kill her! I also feel a bit like people screaming for freedom from the government after we've had COVID hits differently than it would have 3 years ago, so that makes them feel even worse. To me that's the story failing, I don't think the INTENTION matters, only what we saw.
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Mar 17, 2023 14:06
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For comparison, here is how you portray ethical people deciding whether to take apart someone's brain based on an unproven theory:      
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Mar 17, 2023 14:06
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Taear posted:Your take here of "I like what I feel the storytellers are telling me and I would rather think about that" is just baffling to me Yeah I agree with this, i get the themes at the ending, I think everyone in this thread does. And if folks want to go through mental hoops to make them land better that's fine. I have done that for other stuff. But personally the writing here wasn't interesting enough to me to justify it. The failure of the writing is: Discussing if the fireflies are idiots or not is way more interesting than the themes of the ending. Probably why it has apparently dominated discussion for 10 years.
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Mar 17, 2023 14:47
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havent played the games or been following the discussion itt too closely but i assume that joel understood that killing ellie would give humanity a huuuuge chance of beating cordyceps (certainly better than anything in the past 20 years) given they basically know how she got infected and have a working theory for what happened and what to do next however he would definitely opt to give his (adopted) daughter a chance to live a full life, the commune that he saw essentially does offer a cordyceps-free life already. i also like the idea that was posted a bit ago, that his rambo bit was like a suicide attempt because for him it really isn't a choice Jerusalem posted:Still gets me that Marlene snaps at Joel that he KNOWS that Ellie would agree to the sacrifice.... the sacrifice that Marlene explicitly did NOT ask her to make. Where was your confidence then, lady? my POV on this is that marlene views ellie purely as a trolley problem. if she is confident about the success of the procedure, of course she would pull the lever however, by now she knows that ellie is not a trolley problem to Joel but a daughter/person; so she points out (correctly) that ellie would have chosen self-sacrifice. from this perspective, joel is undeniably betraying ellie. Plus lying to ellie about what happened at the clinic essentially denies her the chance to seek out other researchers in the future as a grown adult, per marlene's "it's still not too late" Jay-V fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 15:01
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I was 100% with Joel's choice, but still feel the show made the case for the Fireflies' view on things. Them being somewhat incompetent and overzealous rings true for me. That they couldn't understand why Joel wouldn't just hand over a girl to be murdered seemed like rather the point to me.
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Mar 17, 2023 17:27
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Jay-V posted:but i assume that joel understood that killing ellie would give humanity a huuuuge chance of beating cordyceps That may be what the writers had in their heads, the problem is they didn't manage it to show it on screen.
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Mar 17, 2023 19:08
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It's also unclear how much of a difference having the medicine would make.
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Mar 17, 2023 22:24
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Yeah, it's essentially a show about a guy saving his surrogate daughter from group after group of increasingly deranged psychopaths. There's a nice bit of symmetry in that the last group of psychopaths he saves her from were also the first group.
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Mar 17, 2023 22:36
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Well it’s definitely true Joel would consider Ellie to be the best chance for people to build cordyceps immunity I agree that no one knows (nor can they know) 100% for sure that a cure can be generated But the question of are the fireflies and this doctor just a bunch of fuckups seems irrelevant because Joel doesn’t care. it’s not a question he raises, he doesn’t ask “isn’t there a way to keep her alive.” He just knows that they intend to kill her, and that is what sets him off. To me it suggests he would save Ellie even if a genie appeared to tell him it would work. So the question the show poses to me isn’t “is it right to sacrifice one child for everyone else on earth.” It’s: given that he lies to Ellie at the end after acting against what she would have wanted, how exactly does Joel view Ellie. Does he actually love her? Is she just a way for him to right the past? Maybe with parental love there is always a tension between letting someone be their own person and infantilizing them, or using them to rewrite history. I think that’s what the show drove at and it’s a little silly to stumble over “are the fireflies stupid? Would it have worked?” Jay-V fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 22:55
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I'm actually curious -- for TV show watchers who haven't played or been spoiled on anything about season 2, where do they speculate the story goes next?toggle posted:Is the game fun to play? It's really enjoyable, immersive and fun.
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Mar 18, 2023 00:41
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I think Ellie starts working for the mushrooms, she was never immune, just the next evolution and she hand picks her heralds to become her entourage and it becomes like a Kardashians reality show with a fungal twist, meant to provoke thoughtful discussion about society or whatever but the writers goof it up again and everyone just talks about contrived the cosmetic spores popup launch massacre was.
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Mar 18, 2023 01:04
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Hopefully season 2 is one big flashback because those were the best scenes of the show
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Mar 18, 2023 02:24
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i hope marlene comes back as a mushroom
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Mar 18, 2023 02:28
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Don't know where the story goes next but i hope the show is more like episode 3 than episode 9.
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Mar 18, 2023 03:47
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I think Marlene just hated Ellie and was looking for a reason to chop her brain up and virtue signal to the rest of the Fireflies that she was good leader and was really trying hard for a cure. On the face of it, it seems plausible that Ellie can somehow be the source of a cure. She probably told that doctor some stuff from some other doctor or an armchair virologist who archived alt.medicine.fungus, but due to the way the organization is set up, it was for her ears only. Whether she was mad at Ellie for being the reason her mom died or she cried too much because nobody had baby food before they got rid of her. She dumps her on fedra, the organization she's dedicated to destroying, but that's ok if she gets caught in a bombing, because she hates that kid for whatever reason. Then maybe she remembered how annoying she was as a baby when Ellie was yelling at her during quarantine after getting bit. So she tells Joel to take her away, knowing Ellie is immune or at least believing it, so she'll get torn to pieces in the best case scenario. *EDIT* And she probably blames Ellie for getting her new recruit killed in the mall too. covidstomper58 fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Mar 18, 2023 |
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Mar 18, 2023 04:09
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SchwarzeKrieg posted:Exactly this, although I think it's ambiguous whether it was a lie meant to save Ellie the heartbreak or a lie meant to avoid damaging the relationship Joel had come to value (or some combination of the two, most likely). There've been numerous moments in the series where they focused our attention on someone blatantly lying to their loved one about survivability, confidence etc.., and it's shown as a strength with no trace of shame I think, which has been interesting. The most prominent I remember was when Henry was explicitly taught by the old man to act brave so that Sam could feel like they were safe even while the food was dwindling. Joel's been baselessly telling Ellie they'll be OK since they met. I suspect they meant this last lie to be him telling her what she needs to hear even while knowing the truth, and her being complicit in that lie because she needs to hear it, but in this case I couldn't tell if they wanted us to feel like it was a betrayal or sweet.
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Mar 18, 2023 05:45
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Mar 18, 2023 13:45
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Were the giraffe's partially done with CG? There's a Hollywood Reporter article that suggests that they were redone in CG, and that's the vibe I got from the final version, but now I'm seeing real animals so I dunno what to think. At this point I'm wondering if it was a case of a practical effect being reworked with CGI in post, like the zombie from episode five.
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Mar 18, 2023 14:06
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covidstomper58 posted:I think Marlene just hated Ellie and was looking for a reason to chop her brain up and virtue signal to the rest of the Fireflies that she was good leader and was really trying hard for a cure. On the face of it, it seems plausible that Ellie can somehow be the source of a cure. She probably told that doctor some stuff from some other doctor or an armchair virologist who archived alt.medicine.fungus, but due to the way the organization is set up, it was for her ears only. Whether she was mad at Ellie for being the reason her mom died or she cried too much because nobody had baby food before they got rid of her. She dumps her on fedra, the organization she's dedicated to destroying, but that's ok if she gets caught in a bombing, because she hates that kid for whatever reason. Then maybe she remembered how annoying she was as a baby when Ellie was yelling at her during quarantine after getting bit. So she tells Joel to take her away, knowing Ellie is immune or at least believing it, so she'll get torn to pieces in the best case scenario. i think this is spot on
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Mar 18, 2023 16:06
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Open Source Idiom posted:Were the giraffe's partially done with CG? There's a Hollywood Reporter article that suggests that they were redone in CG, and that's the vibe I got from the final version, but now I'm seeing real animals so I dunno what to think. Real giraffe, but on a green screen There’s some photos of the setup, it looks very very silly
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Mar 18, 2023 16:36
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The show’s marketing is getting out of control.quote:Leslie Samuel, founder of Interactive Biology, gives some context for the importance of genetic trading between organisms for scientific research, and notes how the loss of nerve cells in the brain is one of the hallmarks of neurodegenerative diseases. The ability to generate new neurons in the adult brain could be a game-changer in the field of neurology. https://marketscale.com/industries/...sease-research/
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Mar 19, 2023 03:28
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the scenes with a whole bunch of giraffes are probably cgi, no?
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Mar 19, 2023 03:31
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Kill All Cops posted:the scenes with a whole bunch of giraffes are probably cgi, no? What I wanna know is how a herd of giraffes is thriving after 20 winters in SLC e: The giraffe's name is Nabo
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Mar 19, 2023 04:23
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Yes, of course Giraffes cannot survive the lower temperatures of winter and as such humanity has nothing to fear. But what if that were to change? What if the world got slightly warmer? There are no preventatives, no cures, nothing to stop the long necks from overwhelming our civilization. What happens? We lose. 
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Mar 19, 2023 04:44
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I'm hoping for a between season short where Joel goes back and shoots one giraffe while still in a rage while Ellie is still knocked out, and makes jerky out of giraffes and later pulls some out of his pack and offers some to Ellie who says "This isn't Biyull jerky, when did you pick this up?"
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Mar 19, 2023 04:47
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Albino Squirrel posted:Partially. The actors were interacting with a real giraffe from the Calgary Zoo, but in front of a green screen. That's actually what the Fireflies have been doing, the reason that they're stretched so thin and falling apart is because their main focus has just been maintaining this awesome and gentle giraffe herd. Sadly, with all the effort and resources they've been putting into Marlene's weird pet project, their future is in jeopardy. Contact your local Firefly outpost and volunteer today to ensure future generations of post-apocalyptic teenagers will still be able to appreciate the wonder and beauty of these majestic animals
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Mar 19, 2023 04:49
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How many firefly slips does a giraffe shift pay? Is that like 2 hours of Mortal Kombat II time? Do they also pay in tacos as I've heard?
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Mar 19, 2023 04:56
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