Ukraine War: Berth El Buk

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(Thread IKs: weg, Toxic Mental)

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Hollismason posted:

So have the tanks arrived in Ukraine yet? Whats going on with that?

Regardless of when they arrive, Ukraine isn't going to deploy them until their next major offensive, probably in April.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2023 21:46

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 04:18

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

FirstnameLastname posted:

?

Do you think the recruiters are *asking* the people they're recruiting and sending out to fight? They literally don't have a choice. If you refuse conscription you go to prison - where you also get conscripted.

They have a choice whether or not to commit war crimes. "Just following orders" has a rather bad history as an argument.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2023 22:16

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

flubber nuts posted:

war

what is it good for?

# ¿ Mar 5, 2023 22:44

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

zone posted:

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1632469732417761284
.....and why does this bozo suggest that America would start a war against Mexico at all? Not to mention America has plenty of land and resources to spare of its own.

Her argument seems to be that America is just like Russia in that both want to do naked imperial conquests of their neighbors, except that Americans are too weak to actually do it.

Therefore Russia is superior because they actually do nakedly imperial conquests of their neighbors.

It more of the same ghoulish poo poo they've been spouting since the start of the war.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2023 23:37

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

FirstnameLastname posted:

that's not what i said :|

as a group entity the Russian military is a hostile aggressor and deserves no sympathy

but at the same time, those poor-rear end conscripts from the middle of nowhere who are being drafted to be killed and have their homeland colonized by ethnic Russians are, at the individual level, absolutely victims to this war, there's no other way to really describe that

to clarify, not victims of Ukraine's, even though they're firing the shots, Russia's govt. is the actor that's causing their deaths in an ethnic cleansing campaign
that deserves some sympathy, or to at least be acknowledged, i think, in comparison to cheering for all of their deaths - Russia wants them to die.
If you don't support Russia's invasion, you don't want to support their culling of various indigenous and minority groups across the country in one of the cruelest and most destructive ways imaginable either. That's all I'm trying to say really

I don't want them to die, I want them to go home. That's the only "no one dies" option.

If they won't go home, then I would prefer that the Russians die instead of the Ukrainians.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2023 23:42

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

FirstnameLastname posted:

not that there's noone without blood on their hands, but that there's victims on every side of a conflict. I wasn't making a moral argument at all, more a point of how moral definitions are applied and who they're applied to. (i promise I'll shut up about it after this btw i just love to post and feel like i misstated some stuff )

I'm not tryna tell people to not do stuff btw or poo poo on people itt,
it's just to make that distinction because I'm guessing most people aren't aware that entire extra atrocity is even happening

i was responding initially to a guy mad about wanting to celebrate dead conscripts in greater detail and another one talking about the conscripts all being rapist warcriminals, bc it's all wrapped up under 'Russia'.

That was why I brought that whole good/bad framing up, because it's just natural for people to do that, and it needs disrupted for that message to get across. i don't think most of the people doing it are aware the ones they're dehumanizing n making GBS threads on the most are really the ones who deserve it the least

it's invisible when you look at the Russian forces as one big thing where everyone in it is equally responsible for all they've done, while most those mobiks dying now weren't even in the military when Bucha or Mariupol happened.

It just feels hosed up how the minority groups in Russia are being scooped up by the Russian military to get massacred in Ukraine and that entire tragedy is invisible to a lot of people, because the larger and more overt atrocity of Russia invading Ukraine masks it.

Then, since Russia is doing all this hosed up stuff, people end up cheering for any russian defeat - but the conscripts being targeted for battledeath aren't the ones launching all those missiles or saying to lay mines everywhere. They're not responsible for the Russian military culture of rape and abuse. The higher officers are ultimately responsible for the stuff like Bucha, they're the ones who have it coming

The conscripts are, however, responsible for a looot of the overall visible mass of the russian forces, and especially casualties, at an increasing rate since January or so, that's mostly what they're doing, dying.

they're not the rapist warcriminals, that's almost entirely volunteer career soldiers and the officers in control of things, artillery and rocket teams, pilots, not mobiks. them dying on its own means Ukraine has less ammo, that's their purpose in combat, and ultimately is what Russia wants for them.

on the ww2 references, i used thoss as an example because ww2 always gets brought up as 'the just war' and someone would say 'oh should we have felt bad for the wehrmacht too' (no) and i was preempting that by using some of the most extreme examples of reasons to not cheer for terrible things happening under the pretext of it being for a just cause

I wasn't directly comparing them or saying it's the same situation, only that they're both not good things or worth celebrating and that there can be elements of a society that are victims while still being a part of the aggressor in the overarching conflict, and that it's important to not reduce very large and complex geopolitical events into columns of goodguy-badguy

anyways ya i think i got the point across & im glad that discussion was able to happen without things getting all flamewary

it's not

This is analogous in many ways to the American experience in Vietnam. The US Army was mostly conscripts, and rich white kids fled to Canada or got deferments. The resulting corps was thus disproportionately poor and minorities.

However, once they got to Vietnam, they were just American soldiers and the Vietnamese did not care about their ethnic or economic status.

Similarly, Russia needs to sort out internally the politics of conscription and making national service more equitable. Once they get to Ukraine, though, they're just Russian soldiers and the Ukrainians care more about defending their homes than the ethnic or economic status of their opponents.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2023 02:37

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Futanari Damacy posted:

If stopping genocide goes hand in hand with stopping the war, then I don't see how supporting peace could be a controversial position

Depends on what sort of peace you're after. If your version of peace means that Russia gets rewarded for its imperialism and genocide by keeping the land it's occupied, that's no peace. It's just a temporary lull.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2023 16:03

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Wagner fighters proudly capture a Ukrainian tank, Eastern Bakhmut:

https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1632769826023194625

(Evidence that Ukraine has abandoned its positions east of the Bakhmutivka River)

# ¿ Mar 6, 2023 16:56

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

KirbyKhan posted:

War is bad

Genocide is worse. Some things are worth fighting about.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2023 17:38

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Captain Fargle posted:

Everyone talks about how Russia has taken extreme losses trying to capture Bakhmut but nobody ever clarifies what qualifies as extreme. Do we have any actual idea numbers wise as to what they've thrown at it?

Ukraine was claiming 10-20000 Russians killed or wounded as of mid-January.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2023 18:59

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Isizzlehorn posted:

what's the point of thread rule 1 if handwaving away 'stopping the war' and 'supporting peace' isn't considered bloodlust? mfw

Unless your version of 'stopping the war' means "Russians GTFO of Ukraine," you're just cheerleading genocide.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2023 20:26

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1633075716760690689

# ¿ Mar 8, 2023 05:21

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

CommieGIR posted:

It's a battle of attrition that despite Russian advances Ukraine continues to control as a bloodletting campaign.

Last week, NATO estimated Russia was losing at least five soldiers for every Ukrainian. https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-03-06-23/h_265c92682c57b8228fbbf082fb3b6888

Ukraine is taking heavy losses defending the town. Russia is destroying itself.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2023 04:11

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

HonorableTB posted:

If you arrest and imprison the head of a nuclear armed power then all bets are off

lol. Russia is not going to launch nukes on anyone. Putin will simply avoid going anywhere that getting arrested might be an issue.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2023 03:30

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

BrownPepper posted:

was the united state's invasion of Iraq illegal in the same way that Russia's invasion of the Ukraine is?

I don't recall the US claiming Iraq as its own territory and annexing it as a 51st state, or declaring that all Iraqis should die or stealing Iraqi children to be raised in America.

The US invasion of Iraq was dumb and illegal and shouldn't have happened for a lot of reasons, but it was a distinctly lower tier of evil than what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2023 00:51

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Suspect A posted:

Yeah, lower tier of evil. What.

Explain to me the difference between a venial and mortal sin.

Then explain to me the difference between a misdemeanor and a felony.

Then try again at posting.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2023 01:32

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

https://twitter.com/IuliiaMendel/status/1638607236711829504

# ¿ Mar 22, 2023 19:53

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Polidoro posted:

Ukraine denies this according to a cat

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1638615545468846080?t=q6gwQ21mBaft_BuiVh69tQ&s=19

Iuliia Mendel is was Zelenskyy's personal spokesperson, so I'd hope she knows what she's talking about.

Maybe she's talking out of turn here.

Deteriorata fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Mar 22, 2023

# ¿ Mar 22, 2023 20:17

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

e: same

# ¿ Mar 23, 2023 23:10

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Chicken Butt posted:

What�s Meloni�s deal? US fascists loving love Putin, how did she come by her one good (anti-Putin) position?

Yeah, she's been kind of surprising on the upside thus far. I keep waiting for her to pull the mask off, though.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2023 01:03

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Power Khan posted:

https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1639371955886338050

lol

https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1639371964690100226

Do they get Merit badges?

# ¿ Mar 24, 2023 22:30

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

aniviron posted:

That was Deteriorata, and I dunno. I welcomed seeing it though.

It was in the D&D thread. I stopped because I was on a trip where I had to get up early every day and dawn in Kyiv was just too drat late.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2023 14:12

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Comstar posted:

Crossing the Dniper would break the Russian defence and unhinge all their defensive lines to be useless and outflanked.

Saying there�s good tank country elsewhere is what the French army thought in 1940- there was but it was all a feint to draw the defenders away. And I can�t think the Russians defending the river are very deep or good troops- why put your best defence somewhere the enemy is not going to go?

Also its the best place the Ukrainian air support can probably be used and the worst one for Russian air- being further away from any of the Russian air bases and the ones in Crimea easy to hit.

I guess we�ll find out by next month or so? When�s the mud going to be gone by?

I could see it as a second front once the main one got going in Zaporizhzhia. The Russians pull troops out of Kherson to reinforce the front, and the Ukrainians use it as an opportunity to cross. It would put a major strain on Russian logistics and communication, a couple of already-established weak points.

I'm not a military strategist, though. The Ukrainians have shown themselves to be quite savvy in that regard, so we'll see what happens.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2023 03:14

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Sedgr posted:

I wonder what the statuette was? Classical marble statue, Warhammer 40k, or life sized replica of Putin made out of turds?

Putin is a real piece of poo poo.

A black falcon. From Malta.

# ¿ Apr 3, 2023 00:02

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Tiny Timbs posted:

There�s no such rule, just a custom. Entry has to be approved by all members, anyway, so it�s not like any rule would matter if they didn�t want it to.

Yeah, NATO does not want to be dragged into somebody's border dispute, so getting your borders settled is typically one of many conditions NATO will set before even considering membership. As you say, not an official rule, but a pretty firm one nonetheless.

That's one of the big reasons Ukraine is unlikely to accept any peace deal that leaves Russians on their soil.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2023 23:42

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

zone posted:

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1644374089161637888
Whoops!

"Just sign here to get your money. You can pick up your rifle and ammo at the next desk. The train for Bakhmut leaves at 18:00."

# ¿ Apr 7, 2023 22:04

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

tmfc posted:

no

I would rather stick my finger in a live light socket than watch wrestling. Thanks anyway.

Somebody fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Apr 12, 2023

# ¿ Apr 12, 2023 01:38

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Negostrike posted:

There's no "anti-americanism" in this. He just said the truth. NATO is just making this poo poo worse. The only way to end this war quickly is to have a negotiation and both Ukraine and Russia are gonna have to compromise and yes, Ukraine and sorry liberals like you will have to swallow their tears and concede at least Crimea. Cruel reality, isn't it.

And this shows how you're completely oblivious about geopolitics. South America never had any leftist regime ever.

Oh, look everybody! A Troll! What fun!

Sorry, I'm not going to respond to the substance of your post because there isn't any.

# ¿ Apr 19, 2023 23:10

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

HonorableTB posted:

For the counteroffensive I predict an axis of advance towards Melitopol and then on to Mariupol, with the aim to sever the land bridge to Crimea

Pretty bold. No one will see it coming.

# ¿ Apr 20, 2023 03:25

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Deki posted:

Crimea is going to suck because the approach to it is extremely narrow, Ukraine doesn't have a navy, and Russia has far, far more reason to defend it than the fake separatist republics.

Not saying they can't do it, but it'd be extremely hard short of Russian morale just flattening and everyone fleeing to the border.

I seriously doubt Ukraine is going to have to invade Crimea. Once it is besieged, it's only a matter of time before the Russians abandon it voluntarily.

The isthmus works both ways. Russians aren't going to be able to attack readily out of Crimea, either. A fairly small force can plug the bottle while the rest of the Ukrainian forces focus on Donbass.

# ¿ Apr 20, 2023 18:58

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Funky See Funky Do posted:

The hesitancy of NATO to properly arm Ukraine is so frustrating and terrifying.

I feel like the frustration needs no explanation but the terror comes from the fact that Russia's threats are being taken seriously and are incredibly effective at deterring NATO.

31 Abrams? They could send hundreds, no problem.

While the US is giving a lot, they're deliberately hanging back and trying to push Europe to the fore - both because Ukraine is in Europe and to give them a chance to shine without being overshadowed by the US.

The problem is that Europe as a group has very little to give because they haven't been spending properly on defense for decades, simultaneously relying on the US and then bitching about US dominance.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2023 15:47

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Butterfly Valley posted:

Let's not get carried away and insinuate that the amount of money the US spends on the MIC is 'proper' - it's loving insane. Also I don't know that any European states do particularly bitch about US dominance? No-ones trying to compete with the US there. The norm should not be that every country has hundreds of spare unwanted tanks just sitting around in storage.

Allowing themselves to become reliant upon imported energy, turning a blind eye to numerous FSB assassinations and fuckery across the continent, and letting oligarchs launder their cash in property and donations across the political elite, all in the naive hope that Russia would generally behave in a way mostly tolerable, yes, absolutely culpable.

NATO specifies 2% of GDP on defense spending. Almost no one in Europe has hit that for a very long time.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2023 18:11

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Arc Hammer posted:

Does Ukraine have any effective counter to the Black Sea Fleet apart from it catching on fire?

They've got lots of missiles that seem pretty effective. The Black Sea Fleet has proved to be largely useless other than as a missile launching platform. It doesn't really need to be countered at this point.

# ¿ Apr 22, 2023 16:26

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

HonorableTB posted:

Lmao tucker's gonna show up on Soloyvov Tonight within 2 weeks, for sure

https://twitter.com/KyleWalter_/status/1650553967917641746

# ¿ Apr 24, 2023 20:03

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Small bit of counter-offensive news:

https://t-me.translate.goog/suspilnekherson?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

quote:

In the Kherson region, the work on clearing the front line of the left bank of the Dnieper continues, in the last three days - "quite powerful results", reported the head of the press center of the Southern Defense Forces Humenyuk.

According to her, the Defense Forces are currently working in a counter-battery mode, managing to destroy Russian artillery, tanks, armored vehicles and air defense equipment. Humenyuk once again called for informational silence.

"We're kicking they're asses but don't tell anyone." :ssh:

# ¿ Apr 25, 2023 19:53

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

weg posted:

You might think so but I'm going to bet there have been many failures along the way.

There has to be a least one instance of a hitman trying to kill a guy by pushing him up a flight of stairs.

There was one FSB agent who tried to blow up a car but just burned his lips.

# ¿ Apr 26, 2023 01:06

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Negostrike posted:

Don't listen to nazi poo poo y'all wtf

We'll take your advice and ignore you.

# ¿ Apr 26, 2023 03:44

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

HonorableTB posted:

Yes there are nazis in both countries, as well as in every country worldwide. In this war though only one of the major belligerents has a branch of its armed forces named after hitler's favorite composer and is conducting a war of genocidal aggression to wipe out the cultural identity of the other belligerent nation.

drat, why would NATO do that?

# ¿ Apr 26, 2023 04:33

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

https://twitter.com/lunchbox997/status/1650952334057566209

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1652052491431735298

# ¿ Apr 28, 2023 22:14

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 04:18

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

zone posted:

https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1652399644054368258
Crazies everywhere. Wonder how little a sum it took for him to be bought.

He's pro-Putin, pro-China, anti-US, and Armenian genocide denier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do%C4%9Fu_Perin%C3%A7ek

# ¿ Apr 29, 2023 22:06

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