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They did pay it off, 15 years of Claudio being right.
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Apr 1, 2023 16:39
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Gaz-L posted:Then don't do the FIFTEEN YEARS IN THE MAKING video packages yet. Like, mention the history sure, but don't make it the focus of the build unless you're paying that off. Why not? Getting the audience familiar with Eddie and Claudio's history (and then reinforcing that dynamic by having Eddie fall into the same traps that he did against a less experienced Claudio) means now you can actually build on Eddie realizing those mistakes he made and working to fix them for the rematch.
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Apr 1, 2023 16:40
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Pylons posted:Why not? Getting the audience familiar with Eddie and Claudio's history (and then reinforcing that dynamic by having Eddie fall into the same traps that he did against a less experienced Claudio) means now you can actually build on Eddie realizing those mistakes he made and working to fix them for the rematch. The story of 'Eddie's waited 15 years to beat Claudio.... and failed to do it' just feels like a weird way to build it, rather than doing the gradual build, then drawing a line to the history when you're ready for the big win. Like, we're getting into 'Cody losing on Sunday will be a good decision so they can build to him beating Roman in 3 years' territory.
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Apr 1, 2023 16:53
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I have to assume Eddie is going to either beat Claudio in NYC, or eventually beat loving MJF for the AEW title. Only way this makes sense to me. PPV good although I felt the women's match needed like 5 more minutes, expected a bit more (I actually thought the Emi match was a bit better?) and the Tana/Garcia match felt oddly low-speed, low energy. Both guys have had high speed bangers so maybe it was just they weren't a good match, who knows. Should put Danny with someone like Naito/Hiromu/Ishimori next. Looking forward to the Ingobernables, Hijo/Kommander, and other cool tag matches we'll get against Lucha Bros. So glad they're once again belted up.
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Apr 1, 2023 16:54
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sometimes the good guys dont win. better luck next time eddie.
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Apr 1, 2023 16:55
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yea ok posted:sometimes the good guys dont win. better luck next time eddie. Which would be fine if Eddie had just come in to the Khan-iverse for this show, but he hasn't won a feud ever in AEW.
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Apr 1, 2023 17:08
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I think it would have been fun for Eddie to win on that hurricanrana flash pin, then Claudio is enraged because Eddie got a lucky win. So he keeps trying to get a rematch but Eddie plays the same game as Claudio telling him that he doesn’t deserve a shot because he has no honor, etc. until Claudio does something vile enough to change Eddie’s mind - but only for a fight without honor for the belt which Eddie wins decisively. We can still get to a rematch and have Eddie win and I’m sure it’ll be great, but last night felt like as good a time as any to do it.
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Apr 1, 2023 17:15
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Gaz-L posted:Yeah, the Mark and Eddie finishes were the wrong decisions. I can see mmmmaybe doing one of them, but doing both basically falls back into one of Khan's biggest failings as a booker: He chases 'long term storytelling' to try and milk a bigger reaction even when it doesn't make sense and often hurts long term perception of stars and angles. And that's not to say that it doesn't still work to a degree when he gets there in some cases, but he absolutely misses the peak or keeps things going way after it a lot of the time. Sometimes it's OK to just have a storyline that has a bunch of backstory but you only highlighted 2 months ago and just... pay it off. Like, I think that main event finish might have actually seriously hurt Kingston as a draw. The dude literally can't seem to win ANY storyline and eventually that turns you into a guy fans don't invest in because they know they won't be rewarded. How does he do this? Tony's booking is a combination of instant and delayed gratification. It has been that way in ROH and AEW as it should be. Claudio got the title as quick as he could after signing. Joe got the TV title quickly. On the other hand the Briscoes had to lose twice to get their win over FTR and now two other guys are going to have to struggle a little bit to get their big wins. In AEW it's the same way. Mox got the title in his first shot. Punk won the title on his first shot. FTR got the titles very quickly after coming in. Some guys struggle a tiny bit like the Acclaimed, some get long redemption stories like Hangman. This show was the same. You had Shibata win the title and the Lucha Bros win. You had some heels win. That's what wrestling is. Look at the reaction Kingston got at the end of that match and for his promo and try to argue he was seriously hurt.
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Apr 1, 2023 17:20
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Ganso Bomb posted:I think it would have been fun for Eddie to win on that hurricanrana flash pin, then Claudio is enraged because Eddie got a lucky win. So he keeps trying to get a rematch but Eddie plays the same game as Claudio telling him that he doesn’t deserve a shot because he has no honor, etc. until Claudio does something vile enough to change Eddie’s mind - but only for a fight without honor for the belt which Eddie wins decisively. It would even have made the angle with the BCC looking to attack Eddie make more sense. Like, yes they're heels, but what's the point of attacking him when Claudio won? Eddie getting a win on a counter, BCC being mad and attacking, then Shibata runs them off to help a fellow fighter makes more sense. I dunno, most of the matches were good, but the Dante injury plus the two bad finishes just kind took the wind out of the sails for me. Heck, while it's not an option given what went down, I think the Lucha Bros as ROH champs is the wrong choice and similarly reeks of Tony not wanting to change course, seeing as he said the plan was Briscoes vs Lucha Bros, presumably with Penta and Fenix winning the titles here. It should've been Top Flight winning and using the ROH titles to cement themselves as stars on the rise.
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Apr 1, 2023 17:20
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The Kingdom winning would have been a feel good moment after Mark's loss. That's really the biggest mistake in my mind.
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Apr 1, 2023 17:24
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Gumball Gumption posted:The Kingdom winning would have been a feel good moment after Mark's loss. That's really the biggest mistake in my mind. it would have been a feelgood win but also it would have been the least interesting team to win. I was legit surprised that Mike and RUSH got a big pop for the Styles/Nakamura "set the ladder aside" spot
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Apr 1, 2023 17:27
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Gumball Gumption posted:The Kingdom winning would have been a feel good moment after Mark's loss. That's really the biggest mistake in my mind. I’ve turned around so hard on The Kingdom in the last few weeks and would have been pretty happy with them winning, though I’m not unhappy the Lucha Bros won or anything.
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Apr 1, 2023 17:29
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Gumball Gumption posted:The Kingdom winning would have been a feel good moment after Mark's loss. That's really the biggest mistake in my mind. I like The Kingdom but they get almost no reaction, just scattered mega fans My brother won't stop saying they look like youth group counselors
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Apr 1, 2023 18:00
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Timing for doing a title change is a tricky thing. Sometimes you miss the window like ROH did for Tyler Black or WCW/WWF did for Luger. And other times waiting just makes things even better (Okada having to wait an extra year to finally beat Tanahashi at the dome, Hangman journey to the tile). While I probably would of booked Briscoe winning I'm willing to trust Tony that he has a plan as usually he's been right on when to do switches
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Apr 1, 2023 18:39
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Pylons posted:I don't think Tony has ever missed the boat in the way you're describing. Can you give some examples? Jade has been ready to lose that title for a long rear end time and Tony keeps having her redisgest the entire women's division so she can lose to Statlander rather than call an audible
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Apr 1, 2023 18:49
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HonorableTB posted:Jade has been ready to lose that title for a long rear end time and Tony keeps having her redisgest the entire women's division so she can lose to Statlander rather than call an audible People are so confident that Jade was supposed to lose to Statlander despite it never having been booked and people involved saying it wasn't happening..
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Apr 1, 2023 19:01
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i really don't like the lucha bros winning the ROH belts after never being in ROH. i don't like that being a champion in ROH is something to keep AEW guys busy when they've got nothing going on on dynamite. but whatever it's clear by now this is what new ROH is and i should stop getting hung up on it
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Apr 1, 2023 19:07
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John Dudebro posted:i really don't like the lucha bros winning the ROH belts after never being in ROH. i don't like that being a champion in ROH is something to keep AEW guys busy when they've got nothing going on on dynamite. but whatever it's clear by now this is what new ROH is and i should stop getting hung up on it The Lucha Bros were going to be the Briscoes major feud this year. The greatest ROH Champion won the title on his second show in the promotion.
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Apr 1, 2023 19:08
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Gaz-L posted:The story of 'Eddie's waited 15 years to beat Claudio.... and failed to do it' just feels like a weird way to build it, rather than doing the gradual build, then drawing a line to the history when you're ready for the big win. Like, we're getting into 'Cody losing on Sunday will be a good decision so they can build to him beating Roman in 3 years' territory. Yeah, at some point it is possible to be too married to the idea that every story has to go on for multiple years to reach a conclusion It's wild that someone can see something like how over the Acclaimed was at the time of their first title shot/match and know at that point to call an audible and pull the trigger soon after, but still think that's the only time they should be booking like that/that it should remain an ultra-rarity and literally every other development is a 2+ year tale that must be stuck to
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Apr 1, 2023 19:15
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Chris James 2 posted:Yeah, at some point it is possible to be too married to the idea that every story has to go on for multiple years to reach a conclusion Or maybe the Acclaimed were booked exactly according to plan.
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Apr 1, 2023 19:16
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MassRafTer posted:People are so confident that Jade was supposed to lose to Statlander despite it never having been booked and people involved saying it wasn't happening.. In which case that's worse, because it implies Tony has NO idea what he's doing with Jade and is booking her in a holding pattern indefinitely where she squashes undercard girls for weeks on end, then a challenger is heated up for like 2 weeks, Jade beats her in like 7 minutes in a mediocre match and repeats. Insert Jade saying she's 'That Bitch' and 'cut the poo poo' a few times. Like, she's got a great look and is very athletic, but she's plateaued as a wrestler and a talker, or if she hasn't, the booking isn't showing off her improving/Tony's scared she hasn't and is protecting her.
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Apr 1, 2023 19:33
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Gaz-L posted:In which case that's worse, because it implies Tony has NO idea what he's doing with Jade and is booking her in a holding pattern indefinitely where she squashes undercard girls for weeks on end, then a challenger is heated up for like 2 weeks, Jade beats her in like 7 minutes in a mediocre match and repeats. Insert Jade saying she's 'That Bitch' and 'cut the poo poo' a few times. Is she squashing undercard girls every week or is she going to "redisgest the entire women's division" as was said earlier? She's currently feuding with the new signing for the division. She's done this once before. Her last feud was with her former henchmen, one of which she has a long history with. Before that she feuded with a former Women's champion. Mixed in are squashes or matches with undercarders.
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Apr 1, 2023 19:40
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I really don't get the "Tony is too obsessed with delayed gratification and extreme long-term booking" when we are talking about a promotion that started airing a weekly show less than a month ago. If you go back six weeks, the idea of Eddie Kingston challenging for the ROH title isn't something that exists in anyone's minds; it's hard for me to buy that him not winning it is a missed opportunity you won't be able to recreate. Usually I don't like people making "Well actually, what's Best For Business..." arguments in response to people's critiques of a wrestling show, but in this case I do think it's reasonable to point out that it's not great for ROH's business model if people think they can just tune in for the PPVs and walk away fully narratively satisfied with the good guys triumphing. Having babyfaces on the chase in the nascent stages of a (functionally) new promotion feels pretty logical to me in terms of setting up storytelling hooks for the weekly show, too. It also helps that, if there are two babyfaces in the industry who will never ever lose their shine, it's Eddie Kingston and Mark Briscoe. I promise you there will not be a struggle to get crowds on their side going forward
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Apr 1, 2023 19:47
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No lie I think Jade has been the best part of the women's division for a while. If Hayter wasn't being held back then Jade would be second best.
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Apr 1, 2023 19:47
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All I know is Jade has become complete tune-out TV for me. There's no heat or forward momentum for her, at least with me. I'd disagree with the 'entire women's division' point anyway. They pointedly keep her away from Baker, Hayter and the rest. I think she maybe had one match with Shida? She mostly runs through Skye Blue, Anna Jay and that level. She's had like 3-4 defences against some of them. That's clearly a holding pattern and if there's nothing he's holding for, then it's bad booking.
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Apr 1, 2023 19:50
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xbilkis posted:I really don't get the "Tony is too obsessed with delayed gratification and extreme long-term booking" when we are talking about a promotion that started airing a weekly show less than a month ago. If you go back six weeks, the idea of Eddie Kingston challenging for the ROH title isn't something that exists in anyone's minds; it's hard for me to buy that him not winning it is a missed opportunity you won't be able to recreate. The problem is you can't keep claiming it's a 'fresh start' when ROH stuff has been on AEW TV for a year now, Ian plugs AEW stuff on ROH shows and when one of said babyfaces has been on AEW TV (and please don't try to pretend anyone watching the new ROH doesn't watch/isn't aware of AEW) for like 3 years now. It's not happening in a vacuum. And Khan very much has made a habit of booking Eddie to come up short even when it doesn't make sense. There's 0 reason he should've lost that last match with Jericho.
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Apr 1, 2023 19:52
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Gaz-L posted:The problem is you can't keep claiming it's a 'fresh start' when ROH stuff has been on AEW TV for a year now, Ian plugs AEW stuff on ROH shows and when one of said babyfaces has been on AEW TV (and please don't try to pretend anyone watching the new ROH doesn't watch/isn't aware of AEW) for like 3 years now. It's not happening in a vacuum. And Khan very much has made a habit of booking Eddie to come up short even when it doesn't make sense. There's 0 reason he should've lost that last match with Jericho. Jericho was challenging for the AEW Championship right after.
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Apr 1, 2023 19:55
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I'm hoping she drops to Taya and ends up in the women's blood and guts match
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Apr 1, 2023 19:56
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MassRafTer posted:Jericho was challenging for the AEW Championship right after. Then don't book the match! They did the blow off already! Have him beat someone else!
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Apr 1, 2023 20:02
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Gaz-L posted:Then don't book the match! They did the blow off already! Have him beat someone else! Then don't say there was 0 reason for him to win. A match result can have negatives while also having a reason for it. Not every piece of booking is ideal and not everything is 100% negative. MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Apr 1, 2023 |
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Apr 1, 2023 20:11
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Oh my god i stopped reading the aew thread to get away from gaz-l whining and moaning about jade cargill and now its happening in the ROH threads????????
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Apr 1, 2023 21:34
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Alaois posted:Oh my god i stopped reading the aew thread to get away from gaz-l whining and moaning about jade cargill and now its happening in the ROH threads???????? After the creation of Jericho Derangement Syndrome occupied the initials JDS we are powerless to craft a term to shame the Jade haters so they run wild. 
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Apr 1, 2023 21:39
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Alaois posted:Oh my god i stopped reading the aew thread to get away from gaz-l whining and moaning about jade cargill and now its happening in the ROH threads???????? didn't you hear? it was so highly requested in sad, that one of the new features of psp is gaz-l bitching about jade cargill in EVERY thread
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Apr 1, 2023 22:30
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Not to take the bait, but realtalk? Find the last post I made about her in an AEW thread.
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Apr 2, 2023 00:33
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Gaz-L posted:Not to take the bait, but realtalk? Find the last post I made about her in an AEW thread. I looked and it's been awhile but man you bring her up a ton in the Columbo thread.
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Apr 2, 2023 00:45
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SunshineDanceParty posted:I looked and it's been awhile but man you bring her up a ton in the Columbo thread. Well obviously, she's rich, has a shifty lawyer and won't answer questions, clearly she's hiding something.
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Apr 2, 2023 00:49
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MassRafTer posted:The greatest ROH Champion won the title on his second show in the promotion. Actually it was Mayu's sixth show in the promotion
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Apr 2, 2023 01:07
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MassRafTer posted:After the creation of Jericho Derangement Syndrome occupied the initials JDS we are powerless to craft a term to shame the Jade haters so they run wild. Mentally Carg-ILL?
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Apr 2, 2023 02:35
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Gaz-L posted:All I know is Jade has become complete tune-out TV for me. There's no heat or forward momentum for her, at least with me. You and I have complete opposite opinions about jade. I get very engaged when she's on tv. Because she looks and acts like a star and does cool big power moves. Also its really nice to see a black woman to get a push like her. Literally I can't even think of anyone to compare her to.
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Apr 2, 2023 15:28
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Shard posted:You and I have complete opposite opinions about jade. I get very engaged when she's on tv. Because she looks and acts like a star and does cool big power moves. Also its really nice to see a black woman to get a push like her. Literally I can't even think of anyone to compare her to. Presence can only carry you for so long. Her booking has hit a creative wall and her ring work is similar. Neither of these things are insurmountable but I think that if Stat isn’t close to a return, Taya should beat her in this feud. Can give her different stories to work and give the women’s division a proper secondary title rather than a vanity belt
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Apr 2, 2023 15:43
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