|
We're settling this now.
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 03:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 09:40 |
|
|
The Iliad is a slog of war porn and Achilles being a pouty bitch The odyssey is Odysseus banging hot chicks, clowning monsters, and getting a happy ending. Also the miniseries has Vanessa Williams, Isabella Rosellini and Christopher Lee. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 04:29
|
|
|
Baby's first understanding of toxic masculinity but when I read the odyssey at university it was fascinating to read something from thousands of years ago that was just wall to wall buff dudes oiling each other up and weeping openly for their fallen friends and like that was just how men were back in the day. Really drives home that the 'a man should only live to conquer and helping others is a sign of weakness' types are full of poo poo
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 09:58
|
|
|
The Odyssey is possibly funnier. The bits about Nestor being old and long winded, Odysseus washing up on Phaecia and covering himself up with a mighty branch, the various party islands. Hera seducing Zeus is the only funny part in the Iliad I can think of but I'm sure there's more.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 11:06
|
|
|
ahh, time to crack open the iliad and settle down with my favourite section - chapter 2, the catalogue of ships
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 11:26
|
|
|
Grevling posted:The Odyssey is possibly funnier. The bits about Nestor being old and long winded, Odysseus washing up on Phaecia and covering himself up with a mighty branch, the various party islands. Hera seducing Zeus is the only funny part in the Iliad I can think of but I'm sure there's more. The bit where Thersites the ugly deformed guy comes out to clown on Agamemnon because Achilles did it, and even though everything he says is pretty much true and Achilles just said it all already, Odysseus thinks “oh gently caress, this guys gonna convince them all to go home” and beats the poo poo out of Thersites so everyone will laugh at him instead
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 11:39
|
|
|
Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:ahh, time to crack open the iliad and settle down with my favourite section - chapter 2, the catalogue of ships Unironically sick!
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 13:48
|
|
|
Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:ahh, time to crack open the iliad and settle down with my favourite section - chapter 2, the catalogue of ships I remember reading that in college and thinking "there's no loving way this adds up to 1000"
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 13:49
|
|
|
the illiad's a bit like dbz in that there are pages and pages of melodrama while the action starts up
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 14:00
|
|
|
Arrhythmia posted:I remember reading that in college and thinking "there's no loving way this adds up to 1000" You’re right, there’s more. It’s loving Bronze Age D-Day
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 14:01
|
|
|
RETVRNquote:The beauteous warrior now arrays for fight,
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 14:05
|
|
|
Grevling posted:The Odyssey is possibly funnier. The bits about Nestor being old and long winded, Odysseus washing up on Phaecia and covering himself up with a mighty branch, the various party islands. Hera seducing Zeus is the only funny part in the Iliad I can think of but I'm sure there's more. Also the quarrel of the gods in book 21. Athene and Ares run into each other on the battlefield, she throws a marker stone at Ares and flattens him. Aphrodite rushes down to help him limp away, so Athene punches her in the tits and flattens her too and gloats about how owned both of them are. Then the other gods get envious watching them fight and Artemis starts getting mad about how all the pro-Trojan gods are being wimps. Hera overhears this and takes it personal, and slaps Artemis around so she drops her bow and arrows and she runs away crying to Zeus, and her mom has to pick up her bow and arrows and chase after her.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 17:12
|
|
|
Its been forever since I've read either, but iirc the Iliad has the Aeantes murdering loads of Trojans by going BACK TO BACK like in the hit xbox 360 game Army of Two Also has fun moments like Big Ajax getting rat hosed by the gods as he's about to clown on Hector in their duel, and when Glaucus and Diomedes refuse to fight each other because their grandparents gave each other a cup, and the amazing passage describing Achilles' shield DeadFatDuckFat fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Apr 6, 2023 |
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 19:18
|
|
|
The War Nerd Iliad by John Dolan (the war nerd) is a really fun modern adaptation.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2023 21:49
|
|
|
Odyssey has more fun parts but Iliad was referenced more by Star Wars so it's impossible to saw which is better.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2023 04:04
|
|
|
A war started just because a guy was horny. Anyway the Iliad is about some whiny poo poo who died from a loving ankle wound, boo hoo. Meanwhile Odysseus had to fight and gently caress through hell and back to get back home, and he accomplished this despite pissing off loving Posiedon, the second-most powerful god of the stupid bunch. Odyssey wins god drat easily.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2023 22:59
|
|
|
Achilles story in the Iliad sucks so hard. He kills Hector and desecrates the corpse because Hector killed Achilles's cousin/friend/boyfriend in a fair and open battle because Patroclus was wearing Achilles's poo poo because Achilles was refusing to fight because he was having a pout because Agamemnon took Achilles's war spoils - a woman. There is an epic duel because Achilles got his 'prize' taken away. It's just such a deeply stupid conflict in a wider, deeply stupid war (Oh this other king is angry because his wife left him for another man because three goddesses put a gun to his head to pick the prettiest? Sign me up!) At least Odysseus had the excuse of being PTSD'd from the war and then ten years of witnessing the wildest poo poo when he slaughtered those suitors.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2023 23:39
|
|
|
I haven't read The Iliad, but I cried at the part in The Odyssey where we learn that Odysseus's dog was putting off dying for 20 years just so he could see his best friend again. Am I remembering that right?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2023 23:44
|
|
|
yeah, his dog was called Σευμουρ
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2023 00:09
|
|
|
The Illiad involves Diomedes going out and dominating the Trojan army alone, so it automatically wins out over The Odyssey. (The ship catalogue and family trees are merely a bonus!)
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2023 00:18
|
|
|
Cthulu Carl posted:Achilles story in the Iliad sucks so hard. He kills Hector and desecrates the corpse because Hector killed Achilles's cousin/friend/boyfriend in a fair and open battle because Patroclus was wearing Achilles's poo poo because Achilles was refusing to fight because he was having a pout because Agamemnon took Achilles's war spoils - a woman. Achilles has spent his entire adulthood and adolescence fighting in a war that he knows with absolute, divine certainty will kill him unless he runs away from it. Moreover, he’s cursed by God to be unable to control or hide his emotions while all the other lords successfully dissemble theirs. He tries unsuccessfully to convince the other men that losing his sex slave only offends his honor; as he confesses when Odysseus presses him in book 9, he sincerely loved Briseis—not that this cuts much ice with her, she’s understandably terrified of him. As he puts it, he has just as much right to resent the theft of Briseis as the Atreides to resent the rape of Helen. (Helen didn’t leave Menelaus very willingly btw, she was abducted and won’t stop complaining about it to anyone who listens, including her rapist’s dad and Aphrodite herself) In the end Achilles is compelled to go back on his feelings for the slave-woman to the cause of concord among the Argives. He sacrifices his heart to be a manly man and lead the armies to victory over Hector. And as his shade says bitterly in the Odyssey, it wasn’t worth it. His short glorious life has left him in despair, and he can only be mollified by hearing that his son (conceived while the teenage Achilles was being forced to live as a girl in a foreign country, btw) has grown up to be just as good a child soldier as he was himself. Achilles is a great character, every bit as human as Odysseus. To blame him for being flawed is to miss the point. “Thus was the will of Zeus.” You know how you know the Trojan war was stupid? The Iliad taught you, when its poet(s) made Achilles ask pointedly if the Atreides are the only people on earth who want to keep their wives.
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2023 01:37
|
|
|
skasion posted:Achilles has spent his entire adulthood and adolescence fighting in a war that he knows with absolute, divine certainty will kill him unless he runs away from it. Moreover, he’s cursed by God to be unable to control or hide his emotions while all the other lords successfully dissemble theirs. He tries unsuccessfully to convince the other men that losing his sex slave only offends his honor; as he confesses when Odysseus presses him in book 9, he sincerely loved Briseis—not that this cuts much ice with her, she’s understandably terrified of him. As he puts it, he has just as much right to resent the theft of Briseis as the Atreides to resent the rape of Helen. (Helen didn’t leave Menelaus very willingly btw, she was abducted and won’t stop complaining about it to anyone who listens, including her rapist’s dad and Aphrodite herself) I ain't readin' all that, it's not even in dactylic hexameter. Odysseus Roolz, Achilles Droolz
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2023 01:52
|
|
|
Cthulu Carl posted:I ain't readin' all that, it's not even in dactylic hexameter. Odysseus is great too. He’s also a jerk obviously, but in completely different way. What gets me about both characters is how genuine and deeply realized they are even though they’re mostly constructed out of ritualized poetic cliche. The nuance with which literal pantsless iron age clansmen who kept slaves and poo poo in a ditch could delve into their own machismo through these elaborate language constructs. It’s loving cool
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2023 02:58
|
|
|
skasion posted:Achilles has spent his entire adulthood and adolescence fighting in a war that he knows with absolute, divine certainty will kill him unless he runs away from it. Moreover, he’s cursed by God to be unable to control or hide his emotions while all the other lords successfully dissemble theirs. He tries unsuccessfully to convince the other men that losing his sex slave only offends his honor; as he confesses when Odysseus presses him in book 9, he sincerely loved Briseis—not that this cuts much ice with her, she’s understandably terrified of him. As he puts it, he has just as much right to resent the theft of Briseis as the Atreides to resent the rape of Helen. (Helen didn’t leave Menelaus very willingly btw, she was abducted and won’t stop complaining about it to anyone who listens, including her rapist’s dad and Aphrodite herself) pretty convincing
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2023 06:14
|
|
|
skasion posted:Odysseus is great too. He’s also a jerk obviously, but in completely different way. What gets me about both characters is how genuine and deeply realized they are even though they’re mostly constructed out of ritualized poetic cliche. The nuance with which literal pantsless iron age clansmen who kept slaves and poo poo in a ditch could delve into their own machismo through these elaborate language constructs. It’s loving cool Thanks, completely agree. Iliad for DAYS among the literati
|
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2023 16:35
|
|
|
skasion posted:The bit where Thersites the ugly deformed guy comes out to clown on Agamemnon because Achilles did it, and even though everything he says is pretty much true and Achilles just said it all already, Odysseus thinks “oh gently caress, this guys gonna convince them all to go home” and beats the poo poo out of Thersites so everyone will laugh at him instead I like to think the Odyssey poet heard this part and was like "Goddamn, this guy needs an epic all of his own."
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2023 09:24
|
|
|
The Odyssey easily this shouldn't be a debate.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2023 17:38
|
|
|
Trick question, it's the Aenead, the greatest work of fan fiction ever written and the canonical source of the Trojan Horse
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2023 20:26
|
|
|
the iliad is a good read but definitely a lot of oiled up fart-huffing soldiering going on. it would be homer's greatest if he died before he could write the odyssey, the undeniably superior homeric epic
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2023 20:33
|
|
|
its cool that the illiad has buff men crying together, but its cooler that the odyssey valorizes tricksters
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2023 21:05
|
|
|
The Odyssey because during the time of the Iliad nobody had consciousness yet.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2023 22:10
|
|
|
sometimes I remember just how old these works are and feel an incredible amount of humbling awe. my answer is both op I'm sorry
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2023 22:17
|
|
|
Rental Sting posted:The Odyssey because during the time of the Iliad nobody had consciousness yet. Their bicameral brains made them all schizophrenic from our point of view.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 10:14
|
|
|
deadking posted:The War Nerd Iliad by John Dolan (the war nerd) is a really fun modern adaptation. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 10:32
|
|
|
Grevling posted:Their bicameral brains made them all schizophrenic from our point of view. This is my favorite weird theory.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 15:21
|
|
|
All I remember from the Iliad is dudes killing each other and then ceremonially taking their armor. This happened like 5 times in a row. Granted, I read it 20 years ago.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 20:44
|
|
|
I am there, and the other champion is there, and it's just the two of us, and I put the other champion's armor in my chariot, and I am the winner.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2023 21:10
|
|
|
P-Mack posted:I am there, and the other champion is there, and it's just the two of us, and I put the other champion's armor in my chariot, and I am the winner. lol
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2023 02:36
|
|
|
The Oddysey is almost objectively superior, but the scene with Argos is *just* heartbreaking and cruel enough that I don't like rereading it
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2023 02:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 09:40 |
|
|
Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:ahh, time to crack open the iliad and settle down with my favourite section - chapter 2, the catalogue of ships follow that up with a little Whale Facts from Melville
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2023 18:34
|
|
