|
I'm personally medium-okay with the compromise, but the addendum of allowing it outside of the designated thread seems specifically engineered to make this mod action as unsatisfying as possible to as many goons as possible.
|
#
¿
Jun 13, 2023 00:00
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 16, 2024 03:35 |
|
|
Leperflesh posted:We're trying to be realistic and explicit about what we think we can do, and to express intent via the rules. When I say this next paragraph, I need you to understand I am not saying this as someone who has gone on record against you. This is simply as a goon. I would say this to any mod who made similar arguments. What do you think is 'unrealistic' about banning AI talk in TG? What law of reality hinders this course of action? It can't be the lack of consensus, because as far as I know, if you and AV wanted to, you could make that the rule anyway even if everyone didn't like it. You could set the example. By pulling the "better subforums aren't possible" line, it just sounds incredibly craven.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 13, 2023 00:26
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:there have been, and will continue to be, low-key uses of AI art and text that nobody would notice unless someone explicitly pointed it out. If someone is running a game in TGR and one of the PCs in that game generated their character portrait that is appearing on one token, that is not the level of problem that we think we can realistically deal with, if anyone even notices. Fundamentally, that is not "AI Talk." I think you're mixing your messages here. There are two issues here: "AI Itself" which is impressive and accessible but threatening to cause labor issues and "AI Talk" which is the currently intractable debate between techno-optimists and creatives. It is the latter that is corrosive and causing issues for the forum. An "AI Talk" ban is not necessarily a ban on any AI content in TG. It could be, but it doesn't have to be. A containment zone is one way to hem in the "AI Talk" problem pretty straightforwardly but obviously not the "AI Itself" problem. The fact that you're saying you cannot deal with a problem because some other problem may happen but maybe no one will even notice seems like your priorities are pretty extremely misaligned. Leperflesh posted:Like guys I know we are all game nerds and so we want to read some rules and then immediately, reflexively theorycraft them to death. But can we not? If you have a specific post you want to make, and you don't know if it's OK, ask me or Anti. If you see a post you think isn't OK, report it. If we run with these rules for a bit and everyone is confused and chaos reigns, we'll figure it out. Uh, this is the feedback thread. You are going to attract feedback. If you don't like the feedback you're getting, there are many things you can do about it.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 13, 2023 00:53
|
|
|
If the "low content" proviso is discarded, thereby making it a real containment thread for TG, I think that is a considerably more satisfactory answer. I know some people would rather not have the thread at all, but if discussion is verboten anywhere else in TG and content is heavily discouraged where it is noticed, that should ameliorate the 'community management aspect' of the problem here on SA. This isn't to understate how large of a threat AI poses to creative labor. The new AI OP should try and lay out the basics of the arguments on both side so that when someone gets probed for AI content and are directed there, they can be immediately caught up on why it is considered a problem.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 13, 2023 10:48
|
|
|
silvergoose posted:One of the key goals is (or at least, ought to be) preventing giant pages long derails of trash posts when someone posts an image, or makes a snarky "ohhh, you think AI is dangerous or theft? boohoo" or poo poo like that This guy gets it.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 13, 2023 12:15
|
|
|
This is getting closer and closer to arguing about the issue at hand (the ethics of AI) instead of arguing about the policy (the effectiveness of AI containment to combat derails to improve TG). Talking about the issue makes feedback threads into de facto containment threads, which has made previous feedback threads here and in SAD pretty useless in my opinion because they get mired in the same poo poo that makes containment and/or blanket bans necessary. Obviously, some discussion of an issue will have to be allowed, at least in brief for the necessary context.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 13, 2023 13:54
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:The racist has been permabanned. So, here's the question, relevant because it got picked up in SAD so I don't know if this was TG mods or the admin who decided it was worth a perma. (I know only admins can actually enact it.) Is this going to be what we can expect going forward? Can we expect permas for people who say sexist things, for instance? In the past, we haven't been able to rely on that level of support.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 2, 2023 23:19
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:e. no, there is no world in which the SA admins ban or permaban a poster for liking Kingdom Death: Monster. Since that's obviously what you're referring to. That is the incident I am referring to, but I am referring to your individual failure to punish the actual sexism more than the occasional tiny probe. I don't wish to relitigate poo poo because it is low profit but you'd made remarks that you were attempting to change things around these parts, and I was just checking to be certain that we had your support if sexism happened. (Fortunately, it still appears to be rare in the threads I read.) Regardless, it matters a bit less now because we have a few more members of the mod team such as: dwarf74 posted:I admit I was shooting for the moon on the perma request, but I'm glad the admins saw the same priors that I did, lol Thank you very much for giving it a shot. It's certainly better than the alternative of just kicking the can and imagining that poster will somehow get better. Though I do believe in the power of punishment to improve posting, it's not going to work for bigotry since it is inherently irrational. That is absolutely the attitude that our mod team should regard that type of unacceptable posting. I am grateful for the volunteer work of the mods and that we have your support. On that note, I'm also glad for the admins for taking action and to the TG posters who bought it to SAD. I think this is a success story for these feedback threads; from the outside, it could have been unclear why that was problematic unless you were pretty deep into the MTG poo poo, which meant it would cause maximum thread violence (since they would not miss what is meant) but also not necessarily be understood by an third party without context. Once understood, anyone volunteering to make this site better would not hesitate to act.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 3, 2023 09:16
|
|
|
Tarnop posted:My feedback and suggestion is that maybe Toshimo didn't need his dick sucked about how good and right he is while giving him a tiny slap on the wrist for dancing on a man's grave Wait, how did Framboise hand out a 1 day probe? Aren't they an IK?
|
|
#
¿
Sep 10, 2023 18:13
|
|
|
I'm glad to see that once people cooled down a bit, parties have realized that there is an actual potentially valid complaint here, and that is "One day for a hyper aggro repeat offender is a fairly light probe, and hedging talk in LC entries isn't helping discourage them." Now, I think it was unhelpful for the user to make the complaint so aggressively, but mods and IKs need to be the bigger people here. If we're going to have a feedback thread, you are going to catch some seriously unwelcome and possibly unfair flak. FWIW, I also don't like it when this thread is about a specific user, because then this is going to be a Thread Enemies Thread. That said, the exception must be made for when that user is someone with buttons when it's germane to their actions or inaction in that capacity. I doubt there's not much profit in litigating the specifics in this case. Here's what I would say: Do mods typically ask if you have good beliefs before probing bad posts? No, they don't and I don't think they should. Sure, I think it's typical to make indulgences if someone is often a good contributor, but that should probably only slow the acceleration of probe lengths rather than immunize them or truncate punishments. At most it should be, "I get where your coming from but this is too aggro" but even that is probably unwise to not give them the wrong idea. Punish bad posts unreservedly and hopefully they will stop making bad posts. If nothing else, a long LC entry will hopefully encourage longer probes which means fewer posts from them.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 11, 2023 08:48
|
|
|
Nuns with Guns posted:finding a better way to manage the card game threads if the posting in them is so noxious it drives people away. Same goes with anyplace else it feels like joyless whingeposting drags discussion down. I've said it elsewhere (probably in SAD) but my completely uninformed opinion is that it's basically a moderation confidence death spiral. People fail to see action and stop reporting, and mods can't typically act without reports so there is less action to be seen, and the cycle continues. If this model is assumed to be accurate, you can fix it demand side or supply side: that is, you can implore users to please report posts or you can just start aggressively handing out probes in problem threads. Ostensibly you could also have a 'feedback' mechanism that tell goons when a probe was acted on but that requires code and is way above just TG.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 11, 2023 23:47
|
|
|
I don't think it's profitable for this thread to be a public trial for another goon. No one wants to have a bunch of strangers sit at home and dissect their perception of your beliefs, rummaging through your post history to theorize that you are in fact engaging in a ex post facto pro-labor canard to justify your feud over a card game. I don't think any poster, no matter how bad, should be subjected to that. Instead, they should just get probed. Probes with adequate length and dispassionate explanations should leave no confusion as to the environment we're attempting to foster.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 12, 2023 09:57
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:This is a trad games forum. The stakes for most of us are low. Mods should, imo, feel totally free to tone police the gently caress out of the forum, because most of these arguments are about petty nerd poo poo. I agree but such tone policing should always strive to be brief. The mod shouldn't feel much need to elaborate. It should be the equivalent of "Cut the poo poo." e: vvvvv Also this. Magnetic North fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Sep 12, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Sep 12, 2023 18:56
|
|
|
I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't really know these users. However, I have long been of the opinion that the site-wide response to anyone complaining about a sixer for any reason should always be: it's a sixer lmao
|
|
#
¿
Sep 13, 2023 19:55
|
|
|
Fajita Queen posted:Not to belabor the point but I feel like the past couple pages are a fantastic example of exactly the problem and how the moderator response to it has been insufficient. Sometimes you need to just tell someone to gently caress off and give them a week+ Also, the response should not be an elaborate  -fest that will only serve to enrage the person. If you just can't help yourself, then please don't have the discussion publicly where people can pile on.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 13, 2023 21:53
|
|
|
rodbeard posted:Yeah basically this. Every extra chance you gave Arivia was at the expense of everyone else. I think this is apt. Another way to put it might be to say that every chance you give to a bad poster risks a good poster leaving. We've had multiple people come here and tell us that they left TG because bad posting has made is suck for a long while. What's the way to fix it? Use buttons, and most importantly and don't engage with bad posts from your position of authority to try and argue with people. The choice is to either chat and argue with people as a a normal user, or you can be the volunteer who is working create the environment goons want but you can't do both, as has been demonstrated for years now.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 14, 2023 08:32
|
|
|
Thank you for reopening this thread. I think it's fine if this thread gets closed if people start using it for their personal crusades against users who are not part of the mod team, so long as it actually gets reopened eventually.Leperflesh posted:I think what you mean is, a moderator can't be having an argument with someone, and then use their buttons to enforce their side of the argument. That is not what I meant. If you look at what the quoted post is responding to, this is directly referring to attempting to 'rehabilitate' a poster. This is not about actual discussion topics no matter how toxic the posts are and this could apply to any SA subforum. So, for a sleep-deprived (unrelated to TG I promise  ) attempt at clarification:The idea that you felt like you had to 'walk on eggshells' with someone in regards to moderation feedback is potentially understandable but also sub-ideal. It's a little silly (who loving cares what they think, your goal is not to be loved but should be to engender the community goons want) and it's ineffective (most people are not receptive to argumentation at the best of times and are only going to be made more upset by feeling condescended to and even more so in public). In response to this, we had many people come out of the woodwork to say "Hey I stopped posting in TG because of the aggroposting" or something to that effect and I wasn't shocked to see goons say TG was one of the worst places on SA. However, lots of people were also saying "Gee I didn't notice this user's posts being bad" which I also agree with; TG had been quiet for a bit, at least in the circles I run in until this thread got bumped. It reminds me of how there's a particularly bad poster in a different subforum that I know about, and since following a thread out there I thought was unusual how mundanely they've been posting. Well, I think most subforums are like this; usually good until the bad stuff happens and breaks the membrane of pond scum that formed on the surface. Then, once people are discussing a person instead of a game, the target gets defensive, people dogpile, others decide to butt in with their own dissatisfaction withe mod action/inaction or posting enemies, people complain in white noise posts instead of just reporting and moving on, and it just goes nowhere good. Obviously, there has to be a certain allowance for more elaborate and sensitive discussion within a feedback thread, but it can and will boil over particularly if it's about an individual. So here are my suggestions: Use buttons, and if someone complains about getting a sixer, just respond "it's a sixer lmao". If you must engage in a bad post, keep it short. If you must engage with a bad post at length, keep it private. If you must engage with a bad post at length in public, don't get your hopes up.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 16, 2023 06:27
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:Yeah this is going to happen, feedback from the thread is clear and it's a reasonable and appropriate change. This is good to hear.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 17, 2023 20:31
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:perfect, spotless This wording just makes me think of the opposite of forums cancer: things to buy to improve your forum hygiene. Like "rap sheet ear candles" that are meant to flush toxins out of your rapsheet or "homeopathic probations" that last one twentieth of a second.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 19, 2023 20:12
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 16, 2024 03:35 |
|
|
Dwarf74 seems to have their head screwed on straight. Glad to see it.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 19, 2023 22:58
|
|