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i think it's understandable to want to talk things out over hitting buttons but the whole idea over "a sixer shouldn't be a big deal" is like, it should not take some kind of introspection and self reflection to decide that someone needs to take a time out lol
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Sep 13, 2023 21:01
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i do not understand how often mods on somethingawful cower in fear of posters who have literally no power over them
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Sep 13, 2023 21:06
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Endorph posted:i do not understand how often mods on somethingawful cower in fear of posters who have literally no power over them I know it’s “just words on a screen” but sometimes they suck to read. Also you never know who is gonna go full psycho and try to doxx you or whatever.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:12
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Endorph posted:i do not understand how often mods on somethingawful cower in fear of posters who have literally no power over them I think Heath's longpost was right about how people tend to fall behind strong aggressive personalities, and those aren't necessarily the actual mods. Which is actually maybe for the best but results in these weird power dynamics where the superstar posters have more control over the community than the people who nominally have authority over them. "I'll behave, if you two give me an apology" is totally contemptible. That's blatantly someone trying to twist your arm into admitting you were in the wrong even though you know you aren't.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:13
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Judgy Fucker posted:I know it’s “just words on a screen” but sometimes they suck to read. Also you never know who is gonna go full psycho and try to doxx you or whatever. There are a few posters who seem like they're not far from going full psycho off of the dumbest points. It makes threads really poo poo to post in and read
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Sep 13, 2023 21:18
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As someone who's been chased out of threads by you in the past.TheKingofSprings posted:gently caress off Arivia
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Sep 13, 2023 21:21
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It's interesting to consider power dynamics, which isn't how I normally approach mod/user interactions. That's something I'll think about more. My first thought is, of course the users have power, not in the form of buttons, but in the form of the ability to call out a mod and pillory them for bad decisions. I realize that's not the same as being able to give a probation, but we're human, we have feelings, it sucks to be yelled at! Nobody wants to be yelled at. Is it surprising that anyone would take special care to not be yelled at? I don't like or want to be a punching bag or a pushover and I don't want to act or fail to act out of fear of being yelled at. I do want to foster a sense that no matter what our pre-existing relationship, any poster can come to me in public or private with any issue and know that I will at least listen and do my best to be fair, and if I know I cannot, I'll recuse myself and hand off to a co-mod or admin or, occasionally when the stakes are very low, an IK. When anyone is telling me I've got it wrong I am going to do my best to listen, even if it's someone who has a long long history of weaponizing those discussions, because the day I stop listening is the day I shouldn't be a mod any more. Like if Arivia or Toshimo or anyone else I've clashed with in the past files a report or sends me a PM raising an issue, I take it seriously and respond in as professional a manner as I can. Doing that in public I hope does not mean I am being a pushover, and that's the spirit in which I initially was trying to talk with Arivia today. It's a basic truth that everything a mod posts "as a mod" like on duty, can and will be dissected word for word for any flaw or misstatement or hint of bias or contempt etc. etc. People in SAD complain of "mod voice" but it's just a natural adjustment you make in response to being held to account for every word by an audience that is highly motivated to find fault. But there are also some posters who you just have to be super careful with because of the past, who they are, what you want out of that interaction. I am a big believer in focusing on outcomes, I want to say what is helpful to achieve a desired outcome, not what is necessarily satisfying to my emotional desires. Like it can be super satisfying to just tell someone you have a long history of antagonism with "no, gently caress you" and use a button for emphasis, but that's not conducive to reform, that's just firing a shot in the mods vs. users war. You can take my eggshells comment as an extension of the above: I am trying to be professional, to communicate effectively, and to leave open any possibility that still might exist for helping someone to repair their relationship with the community.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:28
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I'd personally like it if the thread stopped dogpiling on Arivia. Please move on. It has gone on long enough. No apologies will be forthcoming, and she has indicated she's done with the sub. I'd like to consider this particular topic closed and move on, except as it relates to moderation in general rather than one poster or incident in specific.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:29
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pressing a button on someone who is flipping the gently caress out is not a "gently caress you" it is a "sit in the corner and calm down" and posters who flip out over this are people who tend not to be long for the forums. not naming any names here like the outcomes of this tend to be good. if two people are going at each other hard, the result of giving both a time-out is, in my experience, usually pretty good. they stop posting, calm down, and everyone gets to talk about card games again
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Sep 13, 2023 21:31
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Vando posted:Whether you meant it that way or not, the way your posts were coming over were as attempts to win an argument rather than raise and resolve issues, at least from my perspective. Can't help thinking the last two pages was all just a bunch of this. Haranguing people into apologising to make the problem go away isn't quite the same as the original type of angry posting we were talking about, but it's equally as toxic. e: for the wider topic, I think there's a lot of this around and I think it goes back to the stuff about most of this being incredibly low stakes. "Winning" these arguments doesn't matter, but people treat it like it's life or death and I'm not sure if that's because of something they're bringing with them, or if it's something we've all promoted over the years as being normal here. Vando fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 21:32
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Ominous Jazz posted:A sixer is barely a punishment it's telling you to take a nap or hit the showers and post again when you're cooled off One time I told Arivia to take a break from posting and come back after cooling off. The result was a vendetta that lasted for years, with various attempts to smear me as being a white nationalist, child pornographer, blatant heterosexual, or all of the above.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:38
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"blatant heterosexual" sorry to laugh but lol
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Sep 13, 2023 21:39
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Fuego Fish posted:One time I told Arivia to take a break from posting and come back after cooling off. The result was a vendetta that lasted for years, with various attempts to smear me as being a white nationalist, child pornographer, blatant heterosexual, or all of the above. if you're straight you need to apologize for the good of the community Also it's A SIXER it's barely above time out why grudge about it
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Sep 13, 2023 21:41
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Well I missed the fun, but as more I general, site-wide moderation philosophy than something TG specific, I feel getting mad about 6ers ought to be probe-able in and of itself. No one is harmed by not being able to post for 6 hours, and the 'how dare you insinuate I may have been anything less than absolutely Objectively Correct about anything I've ever done' crowd that flips out about them (which, to be clear, is in no way limited to Arivia) just aren't pleasant people to have around. People always bring up mod grudges and such but I'm not sure those are really a thing outside the politics forums.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:42
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Ominous Jazz posted:if you're straight you need to apologize for the good of the community For some reason, getting a sixer for something you absolutely did wrong seems to infuriate people WAY more than anything else.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:43
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ive joked before that anyone who gets mad about a sixer, no matter how unjustified, should just be banned and i'm only mostly kidding but yeah despite me saying and believing that sixers aren't a big deal, one of the consistent things mods say is that people go nuts over six hour probations more than any other punishment
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Sep 13, 2023 21:45
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Leperflesh posted:I don't like or want to be a punching bag or a pushover and I don't want to act or fail to act out of fear of being yelled at. I do want to foster a sense that no matter what our pre-existing relationship, any poster can come to me in public or private with any issue and know that I will at least listen and do my best to be fair, and if I know I cannot, I'll recuse myself and hand off to a co-mod or admin or, occasionally when the stakes are very low, an IK. When anyone is telling me I've got it wrong I am going to do my best to listen, even if it's someone who has a long long history of weaponizing those discussions, because the day I stop listening is the day I shouldn't be a mod any more. Well, as someone who might very well have pissed you off by pushing the domino that led to an IK you were happy with quitting, I think you do a pretty good job living up to this standard. I don't always agree with you but I haven't felt you've been unfair to me at any point in this discussion Leperflesh posted:It's a basic truth that everything a mod posts "as a mod" like on duty, can and will be dissected word for word for any flaw or misstatement or hint of bias or contempt etc. etc. People in SAD complain of "mod voice" but it's just a natural adjustment you make in response to being held to account for every word by an audience that is highly motivated to find fault. I don't think this is universally true and it's also a spectrum rather than a binary. I think that it's possible to adjust too far and create more distance between yourself and users, which leads to more dissection and then we're in another undesirable feedback loop. Maybe I'm not the right person to comment on this though since I'm generally ok with mods being a bit more formal if that makes them more comfortable, but I definitely get a weird vibe if a post feels like it's trying to pre-emptively shut off every possible counter argument
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Sep 13, 2023 21:46
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Feels Villeneuve posted:like the outcomes of this tend to be good. if two people are going at each other hard, the result of giving both a time-out is, in my experience, usually pretty good. they stop posting, calm down, and everyone gets to talk about card games again I would request probes for both sickening and I back in the day to get arguments to stop. It worked! That way both of us would take 6 hours off and it would be chill again, at least until the next troll post. Fuego Fish posted:various attempts to smear me as being a... blatant heterosexual... Lmao
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Sep 13, 2023 21:46
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Tarnop posted:I don't think this is universally true and it's also a spectrum rather than a binary. I think that it's possible to adjust too far and create more distance between yourself and users, which leads to more dissection and then we're in another undesirable feedback loop. Maybe I'm not the right person to comment on this though since I'm generally ok with mods being a bit more formal if that makes them more comfortable, but I definitely get a weird vibe if a post feels like it's trying to pre-emptively shut off every possible counter argument for me its like - forum mods should be there to make sure we have a good space for discussing things, and things can get weird if they seem like they're trying to act like a guidance counselor or some poo poo. even if that's not the intent.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:49
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Not to belabor the point but I feel like the past couple pages are a fantastic example of exactly the problem and how the moderator response to it has been insufficient. Sometimes you need to just tell someone to gently caress off and give them a week+
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Sep 13, 2023 21:50
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Mods become meaner NOW
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Sep 13, 2023 21:51
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Fajita Queen posted:Not to belabor the point but I feel like the past couple pages are a fantastic example of exactly the problem and how the moderator response to it has been insufficient. Sometimes you need to just tell someone to gently caress off and give them a week+ Also, the response should not be an elaborate  -fest that will only serve to enrage the person. If you just can't help yourself, then please don't have the discussion publicly where people can pile on.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:53
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Ominous Jazz posted:if you're straight you need to apologize for the good of the community That's the thing: I'm not actually straight. But as part of her blood feud against me, Arivia repeatedly insisted I was, because it better suited her narrative for me to be the oppressive cishet bully, abusing my lofty position as moderator of an IRC channel to sadistically indulge in rampant bigotry and/or privilege.
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Sep 13, 2023 21:55
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Hey if anyone's interested, this is the exchange all the heist hullabaloo is about :Xiahou Dun posted:No. It's pretty emphatic that the game can't live up to the tone of the film, which would lead to possible new players being disappointed. Arivia posted:“D&D can’t do heists” is something you should have told WotC before their new adventure book of just heists. I think you mean “D&D can’t do heists well,” not that it’s completely unable to do them. e: dwarf74 posted:I'd personally like it if the thread stopped dogpiling on Arivia. Please move on. It has gone on long enough. No apologies will be forthcoming, and she has indicated she's done with the sub.
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Sep 13, 2023 22:04
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I'm sure after a couple more chances they'll understand.
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Sep 13, 2023 22:05
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dwarf74 posted:I'd personally like it if the thread stopped dogpiling on Arivia. Please move on. It has gone on long enough. No apologies will be forthcoming, and she has indicated she's done with the sub. let us honor this request please, it is a good one, as satisfying and cathartic as it can feel to do otherwise
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Sep 13, 2023 22:06
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Why not make a new thread and wash the stink off of this one
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Sep 13, 2023 22:11
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Ominous Jazz posted:Why not make a new thread and wash the stink off of this one Threads doing its job fine
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Sep 13, 2023 22:12
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mycot posted:I think Heath's longpost was right about how people tend to fall behind strong aggressive personalities, and those aren't necessarily the actual mods. Which is actually maybe for the best but results in these weird power dynamics where the superstar posters have more control over the community than the people who nominally have authority over them. This is the answer. Some people are annoying but also come with a cheer squad who will stir poo poo if they get slapped for bad posting, so the mod will err on not becoming the SA main character of the day e: that said when i was reading through the leadup to this, i was going to myself "wait, isn't arivia one of those problem posters that people are talking about?" and lo and behold lmao Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 22:12
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Arivia posted:Fine, I’ll move on out of the forum then. If I’m being gaslit and probed for things I didn’t post at all and nothing I can do in good faith is good enough for you, then there’s nothing I can do to remain a poster in good standing. The aristocrats!
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Sep 13, 2023 22:14
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Ominous Jazz posted:Why not make a new thread and wash the stink off of this one This thread seems pretty fine. If TG rebooted a thread every time there was a fight or argument no thread would last longer than 5 pages
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Sep 13, 2023 22:16
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ilmucche posted:This thread seems pretty fine. If TG rebooted a thread every time there was a fight or argument no thread would last longer than 5 pages I don't think that reflects well on this board
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Sep 13, 2023 22:20
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Ominous Jazz posted:I don't think that reflects well on this board No, that's why we're here lol. to try and change that or in some cases, no longer here
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Sep 13, 2023 22:21
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Leperflesh posted:
Can you please confirm that Arivia is actually banned from posting in TG? Otherwise the topic of the moderation team failing to act over this specific poster being toxic for years isn't actually resolved, because there's absolutely nothing stopping her from continuing to post here. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 22:28
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Lemon-Lime posted:Can you please confirm that Arivia is actually banned from posting in TG? Otherwise the topic of the moderation team failing to act over this specific poster being toxic for years isn't actually resolved, because there's absolutely nothing stopping her from continuing to post here.  I'm not a mod or admin. That's between them and her - or just her, I suppose. I was genuine when I said, yesterday(!), that I thought she was improving a lot over the past few years. It's egg on my face, now, and super ironic, in retrospect.
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Sep 13, 2023 22:46
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dwarf74 posted:6ers are the best I can hand out, and that's goin super well. Yes, sorry, the question was for Leperflesh but I did a lazy multi quote instead of embedding your quote inside his.  e; vv Leperflesh posted:Yes, it's gone through. It's a forumban. I'm unhappy it came to this. Thanks for the confirmation. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 23:00
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Excellent shoot
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Sep 14, 2023 00:39
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Yes, it's gone through. It's a forumban. I'm unhappy it came to this.
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Sep 14, 2023 00:39
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TheKingofSprings posted:Excellent shoot
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Sep 14, 2023 00:43
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Leperflesh posted:Yes, it's gone through. It's a forumban. I'm unhappy it came to this. Sorry you're bummed out but you made the right decision.
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Sep 14, 2023 01:05
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