Trad Games and TGR suggestions, feedback, and community thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Trad Games and TGR suggestions, feedback, and community thread

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Leperflesh posted:

The last several pages of the previous thread were a heated debate about rules for posting AI-generated text and images in TG. Over 50 goons expressed some kind of opinion on what to do. Based on that discussion, TG moderators have decided to do the following:

Reboot the AI for TG thread, with a new non-permabanned OP. Posting about AI "stuff" related to TG is encouraged there. That thread is a no-trolling zone, though, so do not barge in just to pick targets for abuse or "just ask questions." If you want to Debate & Discuss the ethics of AI, please visit the AI thread in the D&D forum.

Set new rules in the TG rules thread prohibiting low-effort posts of generated images or text stuff in other threads, due to the high risk of unresolvable extended arguing derails they attract.

Encourage people to start including credit or sources for images, game text, etc. that they post or use in their threads and games. This is not a hard rule because it's basically unenforceable, and there are many contexts where providing a source would be difficult or tangential, but it's a cool and good thing to do that we'd like to see more of.

I know that some of these decisions will be unsatisfactory to a lot of posters. This represents an unhappy compromise because we are convinced that it is the least-worst solution for now. This is not set in stone, and if things don't work, we can revisit the issues, but please give things time to settle out.

Yeah this is not satisfactory at all and doesn't address the numerous complaints about AI poo poo that were put forward in the previous thread. Nice job, mods! :jerkbag:

# ¿ Jun 12, 2023 23:39

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 05:14

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

PurpleXVI posted:

I'm unhappy that AI gets allowed outside of its containment zone, but hopefully the idea of "low effort" will be brutally policed.

You know these mods, it absolutely will not be.

# ¿ Jun 12, 2023 23:47

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Antivehicular posted:

This is the intent of the rule, yes. It's specifically based on the example posted in the previous thread of mostly handmade Blood Bowl assets that included a generated team logo, but where there's still been a lot of work put in by the poster manually. What we don't want people to post is just straight dumps of "I had ChatGPT make a dungeon" or "here's my new PC portrait from Midjourney" or whatever when there's no human creative work done.

Allowing it at all still implicitly encourages people to use those tools which are run entirely off of stolen assets and are used as justification to oppress workers.

# ¿ Jun 12, 2023 23:48

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Leperflesh posted:

We have had this debate, at length, this point was made repeatedly, and we have arrived at the compromise we're at.

When something is bad you don't compromise with it.

With this kind of approach to moderation, why do you mod tradgames instead of D&D? Did you get the acronym confused with the game?

# ¿ Jun 12, 2023 23:55

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Leperflesh posted:

The community does not have a consensus that this is as bad as you feel it is, so Anti and I do not feel we should enforce that specific uncompromising viewpoint.

There doesn't need to be consensus among the community when one part of the community is wrong. You ban the bad thing and tell them to go elsewhere if they don't like it. If you are unwilling to make that call then you should step down and let someone else make it.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2023 00:38

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

It is not even remotely difficult to say "if you want to talk about or post AI content do it in debate and discussion instead" and then enforce that, if you are not bad at moderating. This does not need to be more complicated than that, it is helping nobody.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2023 04:38

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

sebmojo posted:

We are not going to ban discussion of ai on the something awful forums.

Directing it to the subforum it belongs in is not banning it.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2023 12:36

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

gurragadon posted:

This is the subforum for discussing AI use in traditional games. Debate and Discussion is the forum for discussing ethical and legal implications of AI. Nobody is talking about TTRPG's in D&D unless there is a legal or ethical concern surrounding them.

If there were an AI subforum then it would make sense to post everything there, but right now AI isn't the primary topic. It's ethics of AI, or how to use AI for TTRPG's, or AI in music. It's how AI is applied to the specific primary topics of the subforum.

And the only discussion that should be necessary regarding AI use in games is "Dont do it, it's wildly unethical" which is why we have a problem with this in the first place.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2023 12:56

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Hey can one of you guys ban the racist guy who popped up in the Magic thread, thanks

# ¿ Jul 2, 2023 15:10

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Thank you

# ¿ Jul 2, 2023 16:22

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Leperflesh posted:

e. no, there is no world in which the SA admins ban or permaban a poster for liking Kingdom Death: Monster. Since that's obviously what you're referring to.

lol

# ¿ Jul 2, 2023 23:56

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Framboise posted:

Thing is, if I acted every single time someone posts in the MTG thread said something in a hostile or harsh way, I'd be probing half the morons in the thread every couple of days because the thread is, by far, the most overdramatic and fussy thread I can tolerate frequenting, populated by people with the social skills of hungry feral cats.

Good, maybe do this repeatedly until it stops instead of letting the thread be a cesspool of toxic poo poo that loads of people on the forums can't stand to read or post in because of how horrible it's been. Then repeat this for the rest of Tradgames, because this forum is hugely undermoderated and some of the most awful, hostile, lovely people are the loudest.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2023 23:15

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Leperflesh posted:

The IK Framboise talked to me first and I agreed with a 1-day probe, which also required admin approval. Jeffrey approved the probation with full view of our discussion on it.

Toshimo's probation is for a combination of grotesquely cheering for the death of a random magic the gathering influencer as a response in a thread where people were openly mourning that person, and, for the hypocrisy of being the loudest voice for more and tougher moderation in that very thread against the people who make it a hostile place to post. A one-day probation is still pretty minor. A post that would likely have gotten a pass from someone else doesn't necessarily get that benefit of the doubt from a repeat offender, that's part of the context that goes into probation decisions. Particularly someone who has been vigorously demanding more probations.

Framboise can speak for himself but my interpretation of the probation reason is that Framboise agrees with the principle that labor needs to fight capital, but, that this is a real lovely way to express that, both in terms of timing and expressed vitriol.

Oh also 1 day bans don't require admin approval, any mod can hand them out, so are you lying or just bad at your job?

# ¿ Sep 10, 2023 23:39

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Yes but the IK talked to the mod first, so the mod could have just done the 1 day himself. Leperflesh is, however, notoriously probation-averse.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2023 23:43

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

I'm sorry Framboise that this stressed you out so much. I generally think that you're a good poster, and certainly don't think you shouldn be pilloried over a single mistake, but if you believe this ain't for you then stepping down is probably for the best.

sebmojo posted:

I�m happy to approve a more rigorous set of �please shut up� probes because of this kind of thing, we are all here to post together in nerdhood, not flip out like assholes.

This is great to hear, I am fully in favor of you guys just carpetbombing TG with probes until posting improves.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2023 11:33

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Toshimo posted:

People making fake claims of offsite drama while you post in the the thread in a forum you moderate while just letting it all ramp up is 100% on you.

They aren't fake, you just deleted the posts immediately after making them because you knew people would screenshot them if you didn't. This happened several times and the mod logs of you getting banned for doing that poo poo still exist on at least one discord server that I can search right now.

All of which is completely immaterial to your suck-rear end posts all over this forum, which on their own merits warrant frequent long probes and bans every time you continue making them, if the admins don't decide to just perma your rear end after this is all over.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2023 15:17

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

I'm not posting arguments about the offsite stuff. He is deflecting to complaining about that and only that because he can't answer for his years of lovely posts on this website, and my point was that the offsite poo poo doesn't matter because he sucks plenty bad enough here.

Stop falling for this crap dude

# ¿ Sep 11, 2023 18:26

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

mycot posted:

I'll cop to it the person who initially brought up the racism was the poster Farg and myself. I don't think anyone else brought it up, Fahita Queen only mentioned it upthread because Toshimo did and was countering it by saying it is irrelevant. I was being snide but at the same time one post isn't exactly a high effort smear campaign and it's weird to use me to dismiss every other complaint from other posters and completely ignore their arguments.

It isn't weird at all, it's a very deliberate attempt to try to refocus the discussion onto something other than his toxic behavior in hopes that the mods will get distracted. And it's working, somehow?

# ¿ Sep 11, 2023 22:49

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Nuns with Guns posted:

I was thinking I should say that my last post was my final thought on the Discord stuff, but I assumed my shift in the reply made it clear. Maybe not clear enough to make it explicit, so I'll say it directly now: I think we can drop the racism accusations and just focus on finding a better way to manage the card game threads if the posting in them is so noxious it drives people away. Same goes with anyplace else it feels like joyless whingeposting drags discussion down.

Thank you, and for the record you aren't who I was referring to at the end of my post there.. :cheers:

I do think that as others have said the posting has mildly improved in the past year or so but tradgames still feels like the most hostile forum on SA to post in besides the three politics ones, and by a comfortable margin. Plenty of words have been said about the reasons why, both in this feedback thread and the previous, so really it feels like there isn't much that can be done besides impotently post about it.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2023 23:14

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Leperflesh posted:

I think Anti and I have both already said we'll take an active role in that thread, we agreed with ramping and doing longer probations, and I'm not sure what else we need to agree to here that we haven't already. I don't mind that more people want to weigh in in support of more aggressive moderation, but the reason I'm not replying to every post is because the consensus is already clear and obvious and agreed-to.

A couple of people have already volunteered to be IK in the magic thread, and we'll take a look at those ideas too.

Thank you for this. I'm sorry for coming off strong with my criticism, it came from a lot of frustration building up because I really do hope things improve.

ilmucche posted:

We could call them "the hatewatch"

lol, excellent

# ¿ Sep 12, 2023 01:37

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

The problem I think is that a lot of the hostile posts in TG don't individually rise to the level of even a sixer, they just cumulatively drive so much air out of the room and make discussion suck for people who aren't on the same "side" as the people being hostile. So reporting an individual post gets that post seen and nothing else happens.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2023 13:22

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Antivehicular posted:

consistently, perversely wrong in a disruptive way.

This should be a thread title. I don't know what for, but goddamn does it deserve it somewhere.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2023 02:04

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Control Volume posted:

lol

The even funnier thing is that dwarf74 is still correct

# ¿ Sep 13, 2023 17:52

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Not to belabor the point but I feel like the past couple pages are a fantastic example of exactly the problem and how the moderator response to it has been insufficient. Sometimes you need to just tell someone to gently caress off and give them a week+

# ¿ Sep 13, 2023 21:50

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Giving people a few chances (with appropriate punishments) is fine and generally the correct thing to do, but at some point it should become obvious that they aren't going to improve no matter how much rope you give them.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2023 04:16

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

fr0id posted:

This is a unique subforum. It is one that anyone outside of the culture would think (d&d, board games, Magic the Gathering, and warhammer painting) would be the most easy going forum possible, outside of maybe magic.

I am asking for extra accountability from you because in my experience of the past few years people have felt like you are not doing anything when you have in fact been doing so. Again, if someone should get a PM from a mod, they should get a sixer imo. It�s not a black mark. Any personal mod action outside a post should get a sixer.

You�re asking why I think this should be outside regular SA rules. I am going to give you some mean advice but something I am basing 2-3 years of feedback on that I�ve read.

First, leperflesh, you work very hard and it�s very obvious. You have stuck around very long because everyone respects that. You really try.

Second: you are Wishy washy about almost everything. Like the board game thread. We had two new users one of whom everyone hated and you decided the best action was a new ik that lead to one of our best posters leaving. That was a wrong decision entirely on you that you need to deal with. If you had just forum banned the user that all the thread regulars hated, that would not have happened. They still post to this day btw. None of their posts add anywhere near the value that the actual board game designer did. YOU hosed THAT UP. THATS ALL YOU. I�m doing all caps because I�m loving angry that you being wishy washy lost us a literal game design god.

And yes. Leperflesh. You should feel like you lost us those posters. You did. Bad modding. Lack of support. And knowing not to give them Modship in the first place.

Third: again just loving document every mod action you take. And do it publicly. Like it�s not much to ask. Document every pm.

Are you really still mad that a handful of you having screeching meltdowns at a mod to forumban someone you didn't like who didn't really break any rules besides retaliating to constant harassment from you didn't accomplish what you wanted? Grow the gently caress up lol

# ¿ Sep 17, 2023 16:01