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It's funny that Final Fantasy mode is supposed to be harder than the normal game, but you have Zantetsuken, so instead every fight just ends instantly
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Jun 29, 2023 03:49
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Mechafunkzilla posted:It's funny that Final Fantasy mode is supposed to be harder than the normal game, but you have Zantetsuken, so instead every fight just ends instantly Yeah, Zantetsuken kind of trivializes most fights. I think if you really want to get the harder FF experience you need to hold back on some stuff which is disappointing.
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Jun 29, 2023 03:52
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There was a bit in the mid game when Annabelle was talking to Hugo and after he stumps off to go wreck the duchy and she talks about how dumb everyone who isn't in a breeding program is the scene ends on a shot of her wrist and bracelet, the latter with a little blue glow. What was that about?
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Jun 29, 2023 04:01
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I appreciate that Dion engages in the oldest dragoon tradition of backstabbing. But mostly the right people unlike Kain.
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Jun 29, 2023 04:03
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It was mostly supposed to be a front stabbing, really. Also can I just say I love how in the scene just after the Bahamut fight Clive just sorta casually hops down from SPACE
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Jun 29, 2023 04:06
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I noticed the bracelet thing also, but I don't think it's intentional and anyway it's definitely never followed up on
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Jun 29, 2023 04:08
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah sadly that's pretty much just Climate Change In A Nutshell. I think if they make ff16-2 (or if they do DLC as some kind of episodic thing that starts after the end of the game) he'll be alive for sure, maybe even the protagonist again
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Jun 29, 2023 04:31
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It looked like the curse was slowly creeping up his hand at the end so even if he’s alive I’m not sure he’s in fighting shape
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Jun 29, 2023 04:34
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But most (all?) of his attack animations just use his right hand
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Jun 29, 2023 04:43
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I had convinced myself that present Joshua was an egi that Clive had subconsciously created to lessen his guilt created after he unknowingly absorbed Phoenix powers at Phoenix Gate, which is why he could help break Clive out of his rift mental crisis (because he actually WAS part of Clive). The whole egi stuff just seemed to have no real payoff otherwise. Better for him that he got some quality time with his brother. I'm on team alive but retired / in hiding, Tactics / Vagrant Story / 12 all had this kind of ending, and someone had to write the book. Wouldn't be surprised if the intro four had a shack on a cliff on Ash.
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Jun 29, 2023 04:53
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derra posted:I had convinced myself that present Joshua was an egi that Clive had subconsciously created to lessen his guilt created after he unknowingly absorbed Phoenix powers at Phoenix Gate, which is why he could help break Clive out of his rift mental crisis (because he actually WAS part of Clive). The whole egi stuff just seemed to have no real payoff otherwise. Better for him that he got some quality time with his brother. The Egi stuff was paid off with the reveal that the dude who was doing all the work for Odin was just an egi all along. It's not anything huge, it is just there to establish that some Dominants *can* create minions like that.
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Jun 29, 2023 05:52
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Just finished it, count me in on 'ending was pretty unsatisfying' but I 100% thought Clive was dead. Why did the red moon go out, was it just symbolism?
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Jun 29, 2023 12:35
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Clive being dead doesn’t really make sense on a thematic or a literal level. He’s A) the one narrating the book beginning and ending B) is the one who washes up and C) is the only one who would know exactly what happened in Origin to write a book that included that information. It’s obviously him writing under his brothers name no different than he took Cid’s name. And that’s all to say nothing of how the game spends the entire last 10 to 20% talking about how you gotta live for something not die for something.
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Jun 29, 2023 12:37
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I think the reason I find the ending's particular brand of ambiguity so frustrating is that it feels like what we're shown on screen is sharply at odds with all the themes and foreshadowing up to that point. What the ending actually shows us looks a lot like a death scene, and Metia fading really adds to that, at least I think so. (It seems a common interpretation that Metia's light fading is a sign that Jill's prayer has been answered? That doesn't make a ton of sense to me but maybe I missed some lore detail about Metia along the way.) But I agree with Captain Oblivious that the story only really makes sense if Clive lives. It feels to me like what the story's been setting up and what we see on screen clash with one another in a way that I find more frustrating than intriguing. The more I think about the ending the more I think Clive lives, but then if I rewatch the actual scenes they still look a lot to me like his death. I enjoy some tension in interpreting a story but I don't think I like when that tension exists in trying to figure out what the basic events are, y'know? Basically I think the ambiguity about what this world's future looks like--how will people do without magic? Can the land truly recover from the Blight?--was enough ambiguity and the story could've been a bit clearer about whether Clive or Joshua lived or died without the ending feeling too neat and tidy. Harrow fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 13:33
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ImpAtom posted:The Egi stuff was paid off with the reveal that the dude who was doing all the work for Odin was just an egi all along. It's not anything huge, it is just there to establish that some Dominants *can* create minions like that. Barney has no real friends wasn't an amazing use of that card, even if it fits a weird sad sack like him. Harbard could have just been the Odin equivalent of the Phoenix's first shield, which is another Dominant power that just kinda poofs out of the story. Weird question, were the slaver bandits that attacked Benedikta after the run through the castle... real? Like it's 3 goons that effortlessly wipe the rest of her elite ninja unit, that admittedly Clive already ran roughshod over, say some poo poo that pointedly triggers her past trauma but when she does her Priming freak out they noticeable vanish. I mean maybe they just got blown to hell by the wind explosion or something but I'm wondering if it wasn't some Ultima fuckery
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Jun 29, 2023 13:37
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Caidin posted:Barney has no real friends wasn't an amazing use of that card, even if it fits a weird sad sack like him. Harbard could have just been the Odin equivalent of the Phoenix's first shield, which is another Dominant power that just kinda poofs out of the story. I don't really think it is a card. It is just a flavor thing.
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Jun 29, 2023 13:45
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There's also no real reason for Clive to pretend to be dead/write a book under a pseudonym. Ramza ended his game wanted by an extremely burn em at the stake happy religion, Clive did everything under another name, didn't really do anything bad anyway and is friends/nephew with the guys pretty much running the continent as far as we know.
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Jun 29, 2023 13:48
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Sakurazuka posted:There's also no real reason for Clive to pretend to be dead/write a book under a pseudonym. Ramza ended his game wanted by an extremely burn em at the stake happy religion, Clive did everything under another name, didn't really do anything bad anyway and is friends/nephew with the guys pretty much running the continent as far as we know. I think the idea is that if Clive did publish the book using Joshua's name as a pseudonym, it wasn't to protect his anonymity so he could disappear like Ramza, but rather to keep his brother's name and legacy alive. I'm not entirely sure if that's what happened or not but I do think Clive surviving makes a bit more sense than Joshua surviving given what we see happen so I dunno.
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Jun 29, 2023 13:49
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Sakurazuka posted:There's also no real reason for Clive to pretend to be dead/write a book under a pseudonym. Ramza ended his game wanted by an extremely burn em at the stake happy religion, Clive did everything under another name, didn't really do anything bad anyway and is friends/nephew with the guys pretty much running the continent as far as we know. This at least can be justified for one of the same reasons Clive took Cid's name: to honor him and assure his brother's name lives on. Don't know if I agree since 'Clive fails to heal Joshua, gets Ultima's power, heals Joshua and then casts Raise' implies Joshua coming back
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Jun 29, 2023 13:51
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Yeah I also think that everything about the way Clive's healing of Joshua is framed makes it really look like we're supposed to see it as successful. Even Clive doesn't react with disappointment. There's this huge build-up to Clive's attempt to revive him and for that to just... not work feels like a big wet fart. But I also feel that way about Clive himself dying after all of the foreshadowing and thematic build-up to his survival. I think it's safe to say that at least one of the brothers survived, but it's completely up in the air which one, or if it was both. It actually kind of reminds me of Tales of the Abyss's ending, of all things.
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Jun 29, 2023 13:55
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Idk how it's ambiguous that Clive is dead. He turned to stone on the beach. I'd rather he lived but he's dead and that makes him more epic.
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Jun 29, 2023 15:44
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JBP posted:Idk how it's ambiguous that Clive is dead. He turned to stone on the beach. Only his hand turned to stone, though. You can see that only his fingertips are stone at first but it isn't spreading, and when he tries to use magic the rest of his hand petrifies. It didn't seem to be spreading on its own, which is why it's ambiguous.
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Jun 29, 2023 15:48
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Harrow posted:Only his hand turned to stone, though. You can see that only his fingertips are stone at first but it isn't spreading, and when he tries to use magic the rest of his hand petrifies. It didn't seem to be spreading on its own, which is why it's ambiguous. It was happening fast and all the sick people that turn to stone die. I don't think this flies in the face of the themes of hope and trust. Clive even says that the world's going to be a chaotic mess where people will struggle. The hope of everyone that he'd come back kept him going so he could get the job done, then he died anyway. It seems very straightforward to me. Clive uses a heap of aether to revive Joshua and blow up the final crystal. Dies of curse.
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Jun 29, 2023 15:54
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JBP posted:It was happening fast and all the sick people that turn to stone die. Cid and Jill didn't. Well, Cid died but it wasn't because of the curse. They both kept living with parts of them turned to stone. Hell we even see Bearers living and using magic with whole limbs petrified. The only people we see die of the curse are so far gone by the time we see them that it's hard to see how they're even breathing. Clive's stops at his wrist, though. That's not to say that he didn't die--like I said I think it's ambiguous--but if he did I don't think he turned to stone.
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Jun 29, 2023 15:56
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JBP posted:Idk how it's ambiguous that Clive is dead. He turned to stone on the beach. So from what I've seen a summary of "Clive Lives" proof. We cut away before Clive fully turns to stone Jill's discussion with Clive about how he'll return to her at daybreak, ending with the sun coming up and Jill suddenly looking less upset. *Someone* survived to write the book under Joshua's name and quests bring up that Clive was going to try his hand at a book once he got back The final spell Clive spell casts is implied to be Raise (the same spell Ultima was trying to use.) Thematically it makes a lot more sense for Clive to survive after all his promises to come back alive and how he won't disappoint her. The red star vanishing from the sky could be a wish granted. Clive Dies: Clive says his body can't contain Ultima's power and is seeing turning into stone even *before* he casts Raise Clive on the beach looks completely spent and it is framed entirely like a death scene The red star winking out is what makes Jill *start* crying. Gav seems to take that as confirmation that Clive is dead too. The sunrise can be easily taken as 'Clive brought back the daylight' and Jill takes comfort in that. There's a scene where Clive heals Joshua's body and *then* casts "Raise" after thinking about how much he loves his brother so 'Joshua survived because Clive protected and sacrificed himself for him" is also thematically fine and explains the book more clearly. The final scene can be much more easily read as "This child is Clive reborn into a world that is happier."
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Jun 29, 2023 15:58
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ImpAtom posted:Clive says his body can't contain Ultima's power and is seeing turning into stone even *before* he casts Raise I just rewatched the scene and there's no visible petrification on him until he's on the beach, unless you mean the magic he uses while lying on the beach is Raise.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:03
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Harrow posted:I just rewatched the scene and there's no visible petrification on him until he's on the beach, unless you mean the magic he uses while lying on the beach is Raise. No, look at his fingertips. They are already turning to stone. That is why he says "Oh. it seems Ultima was wrong. This vessel can't contain his power." 
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Jun 29, 2023 16:12
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I’m on team Clive Alive just because it makes me less sad
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Jun 29, 2023 16:13
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ImpAtom posted:Thematically it makes a lot more sense for Clive to survive after all his promises to come back alive and how he won't disappoint her. I really don't understand this being a theme since Clive gives a long speech to Ultima about how poo poo happens and you don't always get the perfect outcome, but it's the striving and hoping that matters. E: I enjoyed the interaction between Clive and ultima where ultima is like "everything is going to suck rear end and be bad now nice one dickhead", and Clive replies "good I hope it does gently caress you". JBP fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 16:15
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ImpAtom posted:No, look at his fingertips. They are already turning to stone. I'll be honest, that's so blurry all I can see are his fingernails. I can just barely see a bit of gray but I have no idea if that's just his fingernails or the lighting or if the very tips of his fingers are stone. I figured the important visual there was the flames, like the power is leaking out of him whether he wants it to or not. Either way it doesn't seem like he's petrifying uncontrollably. On the beach, the petrification doesn't spread from his fingers to the rest of his hand until he tries to use magic again, at which point his whole hand petrifies but then it stops there. On a side note, I've seen at least one person who thought his arm petrified because he couldn't use Ifrit's replacement arm anymore from when Garuda tore his arm off and that's a really funny reading to me because it's not even the same arm lol
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Jun 29, 2023 16:38
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The lighting is just not the best in petrifying scenes.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:39
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I just rewatched the scene again and you get a pretty clear look at his hand before he starts healing Joshua and while he's casting the spell and there's no petrification yet. It only starts appearing on the beach. That said I would also say that scene of healing Joshua is presented so triumphantly that it'd be really weird if Joshua didn't come back.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:43
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Harrow posted:I just rewatched the scene again and you get a pretty clear look at his hand before he starts healing Joshua and while he's casting the spell and there's no petrification yet. It only starts appearing on the beach. That is while he is healing him, not after. It is after ge geals Joshua thst he makes the line about his vessel not containing Ultima's power
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Jun 29, 2023 16:45
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ImpAtom posted:That is while he is healing him, not after. I was just about to post this shot, which is after the screen you posted. I think the lighter color there is just his fingernails.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:46
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Harrow posted:I was just about to post this shot, which is after the screen you posted. I think the lighter color there is just his fingernails. That doesn't really make a ton of sense considering Clive's line though?
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Jun 29, 2023 16:47
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ImpAtom posted:That doesn't really make a ton of sense considering Clive's line though?  I'm just going by what his hand looks like. If he's supposed to be petrifying in that shot they don't show it yet.My read was that the power was literally leaking out of him, like he quite literally couldn't contain it and it's spilling out I think the other thing is that Bearers and Dominants petrifying in every other case comes from using power, not just having it. If Ultima's power causes him to petrify, it's because he uses it, not just because he absorbed it. And if it kills him because it's too much for him, then I think he just regular died because his body couldn't take the stress. Harrow fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 16:48
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Have there ever been multiple endings in a mainline FF game? Closest that comes to mind to me off the top of my head is X-2. But I feel like if they made DLC where you get leviathan it would be interesting if that was what was needed to "perfect" clive and the ending played out differently
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Jun 29, 2023 16:51
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Also this is exactly why I think the ending is so frustrating. I don't really like having to do frame by frame analysis just to get hints about what even happenedNo Mods No Masters posted:Have there ever been multiple endings in a mainline FF game? Closest that comes to mind to me off the top of my head is X-2. But I feel like if they made DLC where you get leviathan it would be interesting if that was what was needed to "perfect" clive and the ending played out differently FFXV has an alternate ending in one of its DLCs but it's explicitly a non-canon "what if" scenario. That's as close as I can think of in a mainline game. Harrow fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 16:53
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Not really, closest is FF6 only showing you the little character bits in the ending for people you recruited for the final fight.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:57
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I do have to say from a strategic point of view I think the ambiguous ending is absolutely genius as a way of distracting people from what the immediate topic after finishing the game would be with a more straightforward ending, how utterly lame ultima is as a villain
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Jun 29, 2023 17:01
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