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No Mods No Masters posted:Have there ever been multiple endings in a mainline FF game? Closest that comes to mind to me off the top of my head is X-2. But I feel like if they made DLC where you get leviathan it would be interesting if that was what was needed to "perfect" clive and the ending played out differently A couple. The After Years has an ending where Golbez dies and one where he survives (as well as minor adjustments for side characters who live/die) FFV has a different ending depending on which characters are alive vs dead in the final battle. There's a cheevo in later versions for getting the 'true' ending. FF6 has different ending stuff depending on who is recruited. FFX-2 has multiple endings FFXIII-2 has multiple endings FFXV changed its ending in patches but I don't think that counts.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:04
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No Mods No Masters posted:I do have to say from a strategic point of view I think the ambiguous ending is absolutely genius as a way of distracting people from what the immediate topic after finishing the game would be with a more straightforward ending, how utterly lame ultima is as a villain Ultima is carried entirely by the creepy voice acting yeah, there's not a whole lot else that's all that interesting there
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Jun 29, 2023 17:04
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I would be a lot colder on Ultima if owning him wasn't such an involved process, but seeing a big smug rear end in a top hat get his poo poo wrecked in a rival fight tends to make me enjoy them more. See also: Vergil, The Lumen Sage, Armstrong
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Jun 29, 2023 17:10
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Harrow posted:Ultima is carried entirely by the creepy voice acting yeah, there's not a whole lot else that's all that interesting there the jumpscare reveal when he first shows up is funny
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Jun 29, 2023 17:12
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He’s just a personification of the games themes that you can punch. pretty standard for the series
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Jun 29, 2023 17:14
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I guess I just expected more out of the big bad considering my understanding that this game was basically written by the heavensward people, and that story did pretty well making its potentially generic big bad villains fairly memorable. I don't really like odin that much either considering he's generally way too similar to ultima and his pseudo-shakespeare monologues did not work for me at all, but I did enjoy most of the other villains
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Jun 29, 2023 17:20
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Ultima was pretty weak but the more satisfying villain of Clive's Mom or Dion's Dad would be insufferable if they just sort of kept coasting upwards so I guess I'll take it.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:21
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No Mods No Masters posted:I guess I just expected more out of the big bad considering my understanding that this game was basically written by the heavensward people, and that story did pretty well making its potentially generic big bad villains fairly memorable. I think with the exception of Emet Selch pretty much all the FFXIV final bosses are personifications of the themes of the story.(And ES is too but he's a bit more well-rounded.) I'm not really sure EvilPope is more memorable than Ultima and Nidhogg is (intentionally) a fairly two-dimensional ragemonster who has no room for compromise. Ultima's at least weird and creepy and has a hell of an intro. He's kind of a strictly mid-tier FF antagonist I think. Odin I actually felt was too similar to Zenos, right down to having you lose multiple fights before you beat him, the dude effectively killing himself at the end, and the "YES, YES, HURT ME MOOOOORE" way he acts in the fight
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Jun 29, 2023 17:30
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I was down on Odin too but his insane cackling during the fight made up a lot of ground. Dude realized he was wrong, was gonna lose and his life was a waste. Getting wins like that is always satisfying.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:31
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Not to make everything in the world FF14 chat, but I guess for me what makes evil pope guy work is he gets a nice scene where he hides being a raging rear end in a top hat and tries to rationally persuade you to be on his side. Ultima is just in full raging rear end in a top hat mode 100% of the time which is very dumb when his plan essentially requires clive to voluntarily give up to him. I agree pope guy is relatively more thin, surely helped by a 100% iconic fight though. Niddhogg is just a classic case where you get a lot of understanding of why he's an rear end in a top hat beyond compromise and his reasons for being pissed are legit. Yeah ultima's trying to bring back his society but they really really don't dwell on that, IDK maybe because it's especially well trod ground after emet selch and they definitely didn't have enough gas in the tank to do that similarly well or better. I guess I just disagree with the entire direction of ultima and want the clive's mom is the big bad version of the game
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Jun 29, 2023 17:38
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No Mods No Masters posted:Villain Ultima is just in full raging rear end in a top hat mode 100% of the time which is very dumb when his plan essentially requires clive to voluntarily give up to him. Him being an out-of-touch, holier-than-thou rear end in a top hat is essential to his defeat. I found him satisfying as a villain, if not particularly memorable. Like the Lumen Sage in Bayonetta 1. Maybe if Barney wasn't a complete puppet, they would have complemented each other better.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:44
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Yeah I think having Odin be the guy who at least tries the carrot rather than stick approach would have been interesting. I was constantly thinking in the back half of the game that clive is such a himbo that if anyone tried to just actually persuade him at any point he would have probably gone with it
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Jun 29, 2023 17:47
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I like Ultima overall but I think most of my positivity comes from how cool the final boss fight was. I’m just a sucker for when bosses do the Okami thing and use powered up versions of your abilities against you
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Jun 29, 2023 17:49
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No Mods No Masters posted:Not to make everything in the world FF14 chat, but I guess for me what makes evil pope guy work is he gets a nice scene where he hides being a raging rear end in a top hat and tries to rationally persuade you to be on his side. Ultima is just in full raging rear end in a top hat mode 100% of the time which is very dumb when his plan essentially requires clive to voluntarily give up to him. I agree pope guy is relatively more thin, surely helped by a 100% iconic fight though. The thing with Ultima is that he *does* try to rationally persuade you to his side. He is God. He created you. He holds power over you. Why are you even questioning God? He is God. The true goal should be to follow God's teachings and God's commandments even if they go against your own desires and may harm you or people you care about. He's basically "religion being used as a method of control" turned into a person. Pretty much everything he demands is what lovely churches ask of their followers, just like he himself is an emaciated parody of an angel. He even co-opts another religion to turn it into a tool for his own. I don't think it's religion in general. Gregor is presented pretty positively despite we knowing objectively that she didn't actually create life. Like the rest of the world it is how about systems of control can dominate people's lives. It is also why Odin is what he is. Dude is just a genuine religious believer who wholeheartedly thinks all the terrible things he does will get him into Heaven.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:49
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Yeah OK, but I mean that's all inert IMO because it's never something that remotely tempts clive. There's no movement or arc to it. He rejects it the first time ultima says it and the subsequent 10 times also. You can say the point is that ultima is out of touch but that doesn't make for a compelling story
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Jun 29, 2023 17:54
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No Mods No Masters posted:Yeah OK, but I mean that's all inert IMO because it's never something that remotely tempts clive. There's no movement or arc to it. He rejects it the first time ultima says it and the subsequent 10 times also. You can say the point is that ultima is out of touch but that doesn't make for a compelling story We do see Clive tempted multiple times though? Like "Hey, just give in, do what I say, give up free will" is the center of multiple cutscenes. Joshua's phoenix feather has to save his rear end multiple times. Clive is tempted by giving up throughout the story and that climaxes in the final fight where Ultima is *once again* inside of Clive trying to claim he and that time Clive flat-out tells him to gently caress off on his own.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:56
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I think he almost convinced Clive near the end until he mentioned that all of humanity would die. Probably shouldn’t have mentioned that ultima
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Jun 29, 2023 17:57
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I think the game needed a lot more ff7/ff8 style general protagonist angst for the "maybe I should commit suicide" temptation to come off remotely convincing. I never felt clive was on some continuum of being tempted by ultima personally. At most ultima just had some arbitrary force that could make him pass out despite his mostly uniform resistance, sometimes
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Jun 29, 2023 18:04
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No Mods No Masters posted:I think the game needed a lot more ff7/ff8 style general protagonist angst for the "maybe I should commit suicide" temptation to come off remotely convincing. I never felt clive was on some continuum of being tempted by ultima personally. At most ultima just had some arbitrary force that could make him pass out despite his mostly uniform resistance, sometimes The dude literally (shirtlessly) begs Cid to kill him and Cid tells him "Hey, gently caress off with that, if you did your terrible things you have to live with them" but even then Clive acknowledges he's struggling with the difficulty and guilt of his actions. He's more together in the post-timeskip stuff because he has support and help but when Ultima jumps into his brain you get a pretty clear indication that all of what Clive said before is still true, he's just trying to work past it.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:07
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I just feel like that needs quite a lot of psychological reading in that is mostly independent of what clive actually says and does in the story (pretty much consistently try to oppose ultima and say gently caress you to him at every opportunity). You can say I'm being a dumb dumb, but IMO if clive is supposed to be being increasingly tempted, have him do things that would suggest that No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 18:20
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It's honestly the weakest part of the story. "I feel so guilty about the things that I did while I was being mind controlled" is an awful trope, and they go back to that well with multiple characters!
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Jun 29, 2023 18:25
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To be honest I guess I mispercieved an implication in the demo which I found very interesting and was pretty disappointed was not picked up afterwards, that clive did have some fairly deep resentment for joshua as the chosen one that he lost control of at phoenix gate. Clive is extremely well performed and generally a likeable character but all this discussion makes me think there are problems with him, perhaps that he's ultimately just kind of basic
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Jun 29, 2023 18:29
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No Mods No Masters posted:To be honest I guess I mispercieved an implication in the demo which I found very interesting and was pretty disappointed was not picked up afterwards, that clive did have some fairly deep resentment for joshua as the chosen one that he lost control of at phoenix gate. he's Kiryu with long hair
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Jun 29, 2023 18:31
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What was everyone's build in the end anyway? I liked Shiva for the dodge but I gave her piledrive so I could suck in enemies with mesmerise then lightning explode them. Had titan just for the fun counter mechanics and Garuda for the air/pull but I have her lightning storm and judgement bolt because I like lightning. I wasn't doing outlandish stagger damage but I had mondo movement and counter tools that were all fun to use, plus I could play like a bit of a caster with the lightning ranged attacks. Dropping storm and judgement bolt on bosses doing their whole field attacks when I was at long range was cool. E: piledrive does an absolute shitload of will damage as well, didn't realise that for most of the game JBP fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jun 30, 2023 |
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Jun 30, 2023 00:49
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JBP posted:What was everyone's build in the end anyway? Impulse/Raging Fists/Phoenix Diamond Dust/Dancing Sword/Shiva Gigaflare/Judgment Bolt/Odin. Impulse can be thrown off and then detonated at the right moment so you don't have to commit to anything that might slow you down, Raging Fist is just my favorite counter move. Phoenix I could have swapped for something else but nothing really grabbed me. Diamond Dust fucks Will Gauges right up and clears most weak enemies, Dancing Sword with accessories instantly gets you to level 5 Zatetsuken. Shiva Dodge is hilariously broken as poo poo and makes it trivial to get off Dancing Sword despite the long startup. The last ones are just the "poo poo a hilarious amount of damage in a short time frame." Pull out Odin's sword, Gigaflare, Judgment Bolt, Hold Square while Judgment Bolt is going off to instantly transition into Zantetsuken.
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Jun 30, 2023 00:58
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Ended up with Shiva, Titan, Ramuh for most of the end game, probably not optimal but it worked. Diamond Dust and ora ora are great for knocking down the will gauge. When they're staggered, drop a lighting rod, place Shiva's rime to get the multiplyer up quick then Judgment Bolt plus anything not on cool down. Usually around 60,000 damage if everything lines up. Dropping a lightning rod in front of anything about to do an attack which deals constant damage is also loving hilarious. Shiva dodge busted.
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Jun 30, 2023 01:09
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Impulse: Very high passive posture damage, impulse particularly works even when you're evading and/or the boss is annoyingly flying around, probably the best ability in the game Will o the wykes: Less good version of impulse that requires you to stay in melee, but still worth it Ignition: Worth it just for quickly sweeping trash. I would swap this out for bosses if the game gave me loadouts like it should have  Raging fists: Is fun, gives you something to do while waiting for other cooldowns Windup: Pretty boring generic damage dealer but it was fine. Candidate to replace I guess Gigaflare: Also a pretty boring generic damage dealer, but it's a lot of damage Eikons phoenix, garuda, titan. None of the others really grabbed me which was a shame. I'm sure odin stuff is optimal but the game was so clearly fitting to end by the time you get him I couldn't really be bothered to experiment with it No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jun 30, 2023 |
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Jun 30, 2023 01:18
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ImpAtom posted:The last ones are just the "poo poo a hilarious amount of damage in a short time frame." Pull out Odin's sword, Gigaflare, Judgment Bolt, Hold Square while Judgment Bolt is going off to instantly transition into Zantetsuken. This is what's up 
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Jun 30, 2023 01:34
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I don't dig Odin either. Turning my sword into a sword feels lame.
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Jun 30, 2023 01:36
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big thing I realized in the Odin chronolith is the sword has crazy wide parry timings on large enemies. it's so easy to lock down a boss mob with it. if you can do precision dodges you can almost certainly do Odin parries.
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Jun 30, 2023 01:38
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Surprised at how much I ended up liking Barnabas by the end. His mental breakdown while fighting him was so fun.
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Jun 30, 2023 01:38
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parara posted:Surprised at how much I ended up liking Barnabas by the end. His mental breakdown while fighting him was so fun. My favourite scene in the game is when he splits the sea open. Lots of massive stuff happens through the game but after that all the characters are like how the gently caress did he do that. Scene is also visually unbelievable. My favourite part for sure.
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Jun 30, 2023 01:39
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Is it possible to beat him at the bottom of the sea? I feel like I almost had him but I messed up the DPS check thing
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Jun 30, 2023 01:46
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hatty posted:Is it possible to beat him at the bottom of the sea? I feel like I almost had him but I messed up the DPS check thing I don't think so on a first run at least. Maybe going back with Ultima Weapon
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Jun 30, 2023 01:51
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I love it that Barnabas is a dead eyed enforcer until he really gets to fight Clive and rediscovers the joy of testing one's mettle.
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Jun 30, 2023 02:15
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Do you think there's any significance to the platinum trophy being called "The Chronicler" with the description "And thus did our journey end"? I've seen that brought up as a hint that Clive wrote the book, given that it echoes his narration in the ending and, well, it's called "The Chronicler." Its icon is also the Final Fantasy book. I'm, uh, skeptical of looking to trophies for story hints though
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Jun 30, 2023 03:01
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I suck at these trials. They're number puzzles and my brain can't do anything other than kill things efficiently, but that's not worth more time.
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Jun 30, 2023 07:25
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Do you get to see Clive’s hole in this game?
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Jun 30, 2023 07:40
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Vitamean posted:big thing I realized in the Odin chronolith is the sword has crazy wide parry timings on large enemies. it's so easy to lock down a boss mob with it. This is the actual key to getting off as many Zantetsukens as possible, yeah. It makes parrying about as easy as Raging Fists timing. I soloed the endgame goblin hunt by just continuously parrying him into level 5 Zantetsukens over and over. Gosh I love Anyway I liked Ultima. He had a cool design, top notch voice acting, good thematic resonance, a great final fight, and an Ace Attourney-level meltdown. I would say he's actually a high tier FF antagonist considering how so many of them are just huge nothings - like, for instance, the Heavensward villains. That said I'd still put Kefka, Kuja, Vayne, Exdeath, and Emet-Selch above him (not exactly in that order.) (I also think Sephiroth is a huge nothing who just kind of became iconic because his game did but that's a hot take I know.)
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Jun 30, 2023 11:25
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I beat the game 4 hours ago and have been trying to process it since then. That's gotta be one of the most frustrating endings I've experienced in ages, given how good the rest of the game is. I felt there were a lot of questionable decisions in the game's plot regarding the timeskips. There were also several missed opportunities beyond the ambiguous ending, like Leviathan the Lost. No tonberries? Cactuars only exist on the southern isles we never see? Plot-wise, we've got... The Continent, the southern isles, and all that- humans exist in these places, outside of Ultima's influence? And Bearers are generally treated better on the Continent, according to Eloise's questline. The lore has plenty it can build onto and explain, and there are definitely plot threads that could be lengthened to consider making DLC or a sequel, but if they do I don't want them to half-rear end it like I feel the ending did. ninja edit: okay saying "half-assed" is kind of disingenuous because I know they purposely made things ambiguous in this way. But Jesus Christ, what an unsatisfying way to cut things off. The Grimace fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Jun 30, 2023 |
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Jun 30, 2023 12:22
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