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Greetings. It's time for this quarter's feedback thread. Here you are encouraged to tell us your thoughts on how D&D is going. Whether you're a lurker or a poster, who reads one thread or many, we'd like to hear from you. As always, you can give feedback by posting in the thread, PMing me, or you may post in the thread anonymously by PMing me the post and I'll make it for you. D&D rules will be relaxed here somewhat, since we're talking about the forums rather than educational subjects, so citations will be less valuable than normal, and personal opinions will be more valuable. All I ask is that you continue to present your ideas with honesty as you would in normal D&D, be respectful to other users, and don't spam the thread, by which I mean posting the same thing repeatedly to increase its exposure at the expense of other posters. Unfortunately, you must refrain from posting here if you're forumbanned, and refrain from giving feedback about threads in which you're threadbanned. You can however PM me if you think it's been long enough and you'd like to appeal either one.
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Jun 23, 2023 20:21
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| # ? Apr 30, 2024 16:59 |
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CURRENT DEVELOPMENTS Rules Regarding Bigotry I've updated the rule to be as follows: quote:Though positions are not moderated in D&D, all SA rules such as those regarding bigotry apply fully. If you see something you believe has no place on Something Awful as a whole, this is a sitewide issue rather than merely a D&D one, and you should contact the admins at forumadmins@somethingawful.com. Permanent Feedback Thread On occasion I'm asked to open a permanent feedback thread, like some boards have. I considered this again after the last time it was suggested in SAD, but am still leaning against it, for the following reasons, refutations of which I'm open to hearing:
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Jun 23, 2023 20:22
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Bigotry change good, that was always bullshit. I think "Posting about posters" needs a look at because it's applied very arbitrarily and more often seems like a "this poster disagreed with the wrong person" probe.
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Jun 23, 2023 21:19
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Is this thread closing at the 48-hour mark as is customary or will it be open for another time period?
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Jun 23, 2023 22:18
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socialsecurity posted:Bigotry change good, that was always bullshit. The definition of the rule is fairly objective. If you post about another poster's qualities or history (unless they have brought up either one themselves to lend credibility to their argument), rather than the arguments they're making, you are posting about posters. In your most recent probation, you posted (insultingly) about another user's motivation and forums relationships. Though if LALD is who you're referring to by "the wrong person," they would be tickled pink to know someone thinks the mods give them privileged treatment, as their current belief is... quite the opposite. Willa Rogers posted:Is this thread closing at the 48-hour mark as is customary or will it be open for another time period? It's planned to close Sunday night.
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Jun 23, 2023 22:26
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It is very frustrating to see someone violate the rules, and instead of applying them, the mods proceed to ask the user questions and give them control of the thread for several pages. Every single time this happens, the only effect is to draw out the harm to discussion that the rule is supposed to prevent, and the original violator either a) gets probated anyway or b) they don't, and all people looking to poo poo up discussion get an object lesson in forms of discussion-making GBS threads that the mods will facilitate. When you do this, you are making moderation harder for yourselves in the future, and making the subforum less useable for everyone else. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 23, 2023 22:54
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LMAO at the permanent feedback thread idea. Will likely accomplish nothing but will almost assuredly double the mod workload. You's the mod though so....
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Jun 24, 2023 05:47
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forbidden dialectics posted:It is very frustrating to see someone violate the rules, and instead of applying them, the mods proceed to ask the user questions and give them control of the thread for several pages. Every single time this happens, the only effect is to draw out the harm to discussion that the rule is supposed to prevent, and the original violator either a) gets probated anyway or b) they don't, and all people looking to poo poo up discussion get an object lesson in forms of discussion-making GBS threads that the mods will facilitate. When you do this, you are making moderation harder for yourselves in the future, and making the subforum less useable for everyone else. A point well taken. Deciding when to hand out a probe and when to clarify or warn someone instead is more of a science than an art. It depends on factors such as the severity of the offense, whether the poster has done it before, our best read of whether it's unintentional, and how much they are constructively contributing to the discussion otherwise. If you send me an example or two of where we erred too far on the side of leniency, I would appreciate this as something to learn from. MikeC posted:LMAO at the permanent feedback thread idea. Will likely accomplish nothing but will almost assuredly double the mod workload. Agreed.
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Jun 24, 2023 06:09
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I don't have any feedback outside of thinking the thread should stay open for more than just this weekend. Maybe let it run for a full week and end it next Sunday, that way people who don't post much on weekends have a chance to see the thread. It's kind of lost in a bunch of stickied threads and I didn't see an announcement for this thread, but I might have missed it. A permanent thread probably isn't necessary but the feedback window being only one weekend is too short. Edit: Public feedback window, I know you have PM's open all the time Koos. Some people feel more comfortable giving feedback in public though.
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Jun 24, 2023 14:09
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I was fairly optimistic when the rules changed. “We don’t moderate positions” addresses the core D&D problem, self-selection. Historically, liberals and leftists aligned to moderate conservatives and libertarians out of existence here, and that created a specific class of poster who absolutely cannot accept a dissenting opinion, and relies on moderation to win arguments. The result is a race to the bottom - it became liberals turning on leftists, and acceptable viewpoints get winnowed down until the forum becomes a milquetoast and incredibly dull pissing match over which shade of political beige is best. Unfortunately, I’ve found that in reality the rules are enforced just as capriciously as before, and positions are effectively moderated. Some mods have ideological axes to grind, some are just too weak and bow to public pressure. As noted earlier, “posts about posters” aren’t uniformly punished, and are sometimes rewarded. Unpopular posts are put under a magnifying glass to tease out other infractions. The one historical D&D lesson I’d encourage the mods to consider - encouraging the howler monkeys is just going get more poop thrown your way.
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Jun 24, 2023 17:00
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That kind of links in with something that I asked in the SAD thread that was closed before Koos could answer. It's in response to Koos' contention that probations are based on one-sided reporting. (ie: "Your post was reported but the post to which you were responding wasn't"). Koos, do you think it would improve D&D to have those who believe they've been unduly & harshly punished to mash the report button as often as those who mash it to report them? Would it enhance discussion & debate to have every "non-serious" or "bad faith" or "unfunny joke" post reported? Because I'm sure we could do that in order to further enhance the quality of the forum, and you've been saying that the only thing leading to uneven punishment is what has been, up till now, one-sided button-mashing.
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Jun 24, 2023 17:33
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Willa Rogers posted:That kind of links in with something that I asked in the SAD thread that was closed before Koos could answer. It's in response to Koos' contention that probations are based on one-sided reporting. (ie: "Your post was reported but the post to which you were responding wasn't"). I believe so, yes. All of the rules are there to improve the quality of discussion and debate, so if they're enforced more often or more consistently that would improve the quality of the forum as a whole.
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Jun 24, 2023 18:07
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Koos Group posted:I believe so, yes. All of the rules are there to improve the quality of discussion and debate, so if they're enforced more often or more consistently that would improve the quality of the forum as a whole. I realize this is a question of taste more than objective content, but Dungeons and Debates could maybe be a little more laid back in some ways. And I don't mean my own posting rampage, for which I was rightly put in kitty jail, but somewhat loosening the idea that Dungeons and Debates should be the Platonic ideal of a United States college debate club. Most of the regular posters "know" each other and their viewpoints, and of course no one should insult anyone's person, but it also seems a disservice that grievances of long past which colour people's posting are immediately actionable, and everyone should basically just be "BEEP BOOP I AM DEBATE ROBOT" because people don't really operate that way.
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Jun 24, 2023 18:17
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Rappaport posted:I realize this is a question of taste more than objective content, but Dungeons and Debates could maybe be a little more laid back in some ways. And I don't mean my own posting rampage, for which I was rightly put in kitty jail, but somewhat loosening the idea that Dungeons and Debates should be the Platonic ideal of a United States college debate club. Most of the regular posters "know" each other and their viewpoints, and of course no one should insult anyone's person, but it also seems a disservice that grievances of long past which colour people's posting are immediately actionable, and everyone should basically just be "BEEP BOOP I AM DEBATE ROBOT" because people don't really operate that way. The problem with posting about posters is not that it fails to meet some standard of debate clubs. It's that it adds an extra layer of necessary information to understand a discussion that is useless outside the forums. RidinWithBiden accusing Chain Chomsky of hypocrisy because the latter changed his position from seven years ago means nothing to anyone outside their feud. If it's coupled with hostility and insults, then it's not merely uninteresting material, but actively makes productive debate more difficult. It becomes not only the matter of some issue, which is probably important enough on its own, but a matter of posting honor. So the attacked posters become less willing to concede their points, more willing to use bad arguments to support what they're saying, and more likely to throw personal attacks back and spiral downward.
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Jun 24, 2023 18:44
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Koos Group posted:If it's coupled with hostility and insults, then it's not merely uninteresting material, but actively makes productive debate more difficult. It becomes not only the matter of some issue, which is probably important enough on its own, but a matter of posting honor. So the attacked posters become less willing to concede their points, more willing to use bad arguments to support what they're saying, and more likely to throw personal attacks back and spiral downward. I agree that slap-fights are uninteresting, and I prefaced my post by saying that insults are bad and awful. However, you reference a spiral downwards, and it occurs to mind that gamefying the rule system could also result in a stifling of genuine discussion and attempting to own foe poster JoebidenStomper87, or what have you, by reports. But, again, this is to me more a question of taste than actual moderating policy ideas, since moderating Dungeons and Debates is always contested and, well, debated since this is what the forum does.
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Jun 24, 2023 19:05
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Rappaport posted:I agree that slap-fights are uninteresting, and I prefaced my post by saying that insults are bad and awful. Well, if a poster repeatedly reports their enemy who isn't actually breaking the rules, those would be considered bullshit reports and could lead to consequences for abusing the system. And if they report an enemy who is breaking the rules, that's still beneficial behavior even if their motives aren't pure.
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Jun 24, 2023 19:56
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I can’t think of a take worse for fostering real, substantive debate than “what we need are more rules-lawyering report narcs”. I see we’re also in an alternate reality where D&D regulars are punished for over-reporting. Okay.
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Jun 24, 2023 20:36
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While a principled effort to quit snitchin' is admirable in its conviction, it is in my best interest as a mod to encourage snitchin' whenever possible.
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Jun 24, 2023 23:27
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TheDisreputableDog posted:I can’t think of a take worse for fostering real, substantive debate than “what we need are more rules-lawyering report narcs”. Are there regulars that overreport or is that one of the various myths made up around here.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:14
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You've not responded to most of the feedback from the previous feedback thread. The primary difference since the latest round of mod turnover has been even less enforcement of the rules than before, meaning even more trolling and circular arguments in all the major threads.
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Jun 25, 2023 02:36
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Discendo Vox posted:You've not responded to most of the feedback from the previous feedback thread. The primary difference since the latest round of mod turnover has been even less enforcement of the rules than before, meaning even more trolling and circular arguments in all the major threads. Maybe if goons stop treating mods like slaves and more like human beings who are volunteering there would be less mod turnover and more consistent rules enforcement.
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Jun 25, 2023 02:55
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Discendo Vox posted:You've not responded to most of the feedback from the previous feedback thread. The primary difference since the latest round of mod turnover has been even less enforcement of the rules than before, meaning even more trolling and circular arguments in all the major threads. Sounds like what we need is more reporting of posts in order to enhance debate & discussion, as Koos has suggested. I for one will be following his edict. 
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Jun 25, 2023 03:02
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I think that there's a big overarching problem with the culture of D&D, in that one camp of posters seems to assume that any posts made by another camp of posters is always trolling, or some kind of "invasion" from CSPAM (despite both camps being D&D regulars). I've seen so many conversations that started with what I thought were fairly innocuous opinions spiral out of control because one side just constantly assumes malice of the other. I'm not sure how you would go about fixing that though so I don't think I can provide any useful feedback right now.
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Jun 25, 2023 03:15
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Fister Roboto posted:I think that there's a big overarching problem with the culture of D&D, in that one camp of posters seems to assume that any posts made by another camp of posters is always trolling, or some kind of "invasion" from CSPAM (despite both camps being D&D regulars). I've seen so many conversations that started with what I thought were fairly innocuous opinions spiral out of control because one side just constantly assumes malice of the other. I'm not sure how you would go about fixing that though so I don't think I can provide any useful feedback right now. The problem here is one group openly posts about how much they hate D&D in Cspam, comes in to rile people up and post their quotes in their thread dedicated to making fun of D&D/"the libs", the other group is just supposed to ignore this is happening and pretend the person isn't being malicious even though it's very easy to click their post history and see exactly what bullshit they are trying to pull. Like they aren't coming here to debate or discuss anything the obvious open intention is to "own the libs" then chuckle about it in their little clubhouse. This has been going on for so many years the only way to fix it is to get all new posters in here (no way SA gets that much fresh blood) or just stop having usernames I guess?
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Jun 25, 2023 06:19
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I think that's a rather outmoded concept of us vs. them; that may have been true several years ago but cspam mods have successfully encouraged most of its users to contribute meaningfully there, which is evidenced by the high activity in cspam & the quality of most of its discussions. Cspam rules prevent the sort of point-n-laff stuff that maybe was prevalent back when D&D regulars were gathering in off-site groups to choose targets for mass reporting, as well as for doing their own pointing & laughing, but that was years ago (except maybe for that mod discord that leaked recently). Those of us who do post in both places have contributed meaningfully to D&D, in good faith, and many of us have been posting here longer than those who've complained about invasions of their sacred space in the past. As has been pointed out to you over the years that you've claimed this in QCS/SAD, seeing forum participants as your enemies out to undermine you is both unhealthy and incredibly toxic to the forums at large. Maybe reconsider your thinking by spending time participating in cspam & contributing to the discussions there rather than clinging to what you hate-read several years ago. eta: I suggested that you participate in cspam bc I know that's how a lot of people have changed their minds about this forums-enemies stuff that undermines the forums at large. And there are so many active threads there I'm sure you could find some in which you'd be welcome. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Jun 25, 2023 |
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Jun 25, 2023 15:08
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socialsecurity posted:The problem here is one group openly posts about how much they hate D&D in Cspam, comes in to rile people up and post their quotes in their thread dedicated to making fun of D&D/"the libs", the other group is just supposed to ignore this is happening and pretend the person isn't being malicious even though it's very easy to click their post history and see exactly what bullshit they are trying to pull. a lot of that got cracked down on after it finally drove everyone insane and even on the admin level they started having to ask questions about what the gently caress was happening, so it's nothing like it was when that poo poo was a constant 24/7 thing lol
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Jun 25, 2023 16:27
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Koos Group posted:There is another possibility, though. For quite a while I've wanted to try an anonymous-only feedback thread, where posts are PMed to me and then posted with a pseudonymous identifier, such as "Poster 1A3". I think it would mitigate cliquishness and allow users to more freely say exactly what they want, similar to secret ballots. It would also make the thread's post volume more manageable, and ensure I know immediately when there is feedback since PMing me is necessary. But I'm not sure if anonymous feedback is what anyone would want. you should do this. personally I'll never PM you feedback about things that would bring me back to D&D, because from public posts I'm struggling to remember you making any changes based on feedback that didn't also come from a mod or admin and I don't want to bother shouting into a black hole. it doesn't even have to be anonymous if the sender doesn't want that; it sounds like your opposition to a feedback thread is logistics and the concept of anonymous feedback is orthogonal to that. you could keep the thread locked save for your quotes/responses and if you end up getting a wave of PMs as people see those and respond to them to you it'd make it obvious that people want to have a public discussion thread.
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Jun 25, 2023 16:30
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Staluigi posted:a lot of that got cracked down on after it finally drove everyone insane and even on the admin level they started having to ask questions about what the gently caress was happening, so it's nothing like it was when that poo poo was a constant 24/7 thing lol Yeah, at this point the complaints about "brigading by posting enemies" actually are more prevalent than any actual "brigading" by "posting enemies."
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Jun 25, 2023 16:30
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If it was possible, it would be an interesting experiment to see how conversations would go if normal users couldn't see user names or avatars. Mods would still be able to see them so it wouldn't be a free pass to post reprehensible poo poo, but I wonder if it would make things better or worse to not have posters making mental shortcuts and assumptions about the positions of posters that they personally dislike. OTOH that's basically 4chan so maybe not.
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Jun 25, 2023 17:51
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Turning off avatars really helps with preventing making quick judgements about posters. I turned them off years ago when I realized that I would see someone's avatar, gang tag or whatever and immediately try to attack what they were saying in my mind before I even finished the post. Turn them off in D&D, a side note is that I never noticed how distracting avatars are before I turned them off. Also, global events have conspired to make this feedback thread empty. I have to once again recommend just letting this one go on for a week.
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Jun 25, 2023 18:15
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Willa Rogers posted:I think that's a rather outmoded concept of us vs. them; that may have been true several years ago but cspam mods have successfully encouraged most of its users to contribute meaningfully there, which is evidenced by the high activity in cspam & the quality of most of its discussions. Willa Rogers posted:weird how dnd guys always describe my posts with over-emotionalism and use adjectives like "raging" or "angry" or "furious," huh? This is you quoting someone doing syq poo poo just a few days ago. So why should I take you at any sort of good faith when you are just straight up obviously lying? Also that mass reporting poo poo is a dumb myth I've never seen a lock of evidence for, like more notice if reports are spammed and I'm pretty sure multiple people can't even report the same message. As for posting on CSpamI have no interest in being chain probed.
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Jun 25, 2023 19:18
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socialsecurity posted:This is you quoting someone doing syq poo poo just a few days ago. So why should I take you at any sort of good faith when you are just straight up obviously lying? Also that mass reporting poo poo is a dumb myth I've never seen a lock of evidence for, like more notice if reports are spammed and I'm pretty sure multiple people can't even report the same message. mods have previously said that the majority of reports come from d&d fwiw, though that's not exactly that. but your post here has a lot of us vs them energy so it's a good example of the problem. how often do you pull up post histories before deciding whether to reply to the contents of a post?
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Jun 25, 2023 19:32
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I continue to insist we close both DnD and CSPAM and remerge them into one new, even worse, forum
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Jun 25, 2023 19:46
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RBA Starblade posted:I continue to insist we close both DnD and CSPAM and remerge them into one new, even worse, forum Nah, the CCCC thread kinda sucks, and I say that as an on-and-off participant.
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Jun 25, 2023 19:49
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Cygnids posted:mods have previously said that the majority of reports come from d&d fwiw, though that's not exactly that. We don't have the majority, just the most. Though surprisingly we had many more before I implemented the rules. Cygnids posted:you should do this. personally I'll never PM you feedback about things that would bring me back to D&D, because from public posts I'm struggling to remember you making any changes based on feedback that didn't also come from a mod or admin and I don't want to bother shouting into a black hole. I'm sorry to hear that. I have made changes to the rules or policies based on public feedback before, as well as private user feedback. I can't act on all of it, as some of it is contradictory (users wanting stricter moderation in general vs. more lenient moderation in general) and some of it is old personal/forum culture grudges that don't really have a moderation answer. Regardless, I would like to know about what you see as D&D's current problems, whether they're new problems under my tenure or perennial ones, and what you would offer as their solutions. I promise to read it carefully and consider it generously.
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Jun 25, 2023 19:54
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socialsecurity posted:This is you quoting someone doing syq poo poo just a few days ago. So why should I take you at any sort of good faith when you are just straight up obviously lying? Also that mass reporting poo poo is a dumb myth I've never seen a lock of evidence for, like more notice if reports are spammed and I'm pretty sure multiple people can't even report the same message. How much of this is just expressing frustration about stupid posts vs. what you are accusing, which is that CSPAM posters are invading D&D to rile them up and farm for quotes? Serious question: would you be willing to engage with these posters in good faith if this behavior ended?
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Jun 25, 2023 21:07
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C-spam's reach & activity is extensive enough these days that it's usually c-spammers "brigading" and making fun of other c-spam threads rather than having to bother finding mockworthy posts in D&D anymore.  That is to say: Consider it an honor if you're mined for a SYQ bc it's that rare these days. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jun 25, 2023 |
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Jun 25, 2023 21:49
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unsticky some of the threads the political cartoons thread and the Ukraine discussion thread are wildly popular already, and the Kellies ended more than a month ago. and the Debate Me thread is a resounding failure it's easy to miss the feedback thread buried in a half-dozen other stickies
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Jun 26, 2023 01:38
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Willa Rogers posted:C-spam's reach & activity is extensive enough these days that it's usually c-spammers "brigading" and making fun of other c-spam threads rather than having to bother finding mockworthy posts in D&D anymore. I think the number of folks that post in both forums regularly has gone down considerably.
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Jun 26, 2023 03:16
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| # ? Apr 30, 2024 16:59 |
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Koos Group posted:CURRENT DEVELOPMENTS Thank you for listening and acting on the feedback about this.
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