Bombe: Automating Minesweeper to skip the boring parts

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Bombe: Automating Minesweeper to skip the boring parts

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

quote:

Minesweeper, but you only solve each situation once.

What Is It?
Bombe (Steam link) is a game in which you solve Minesweeper variants (think Hexcells, Demon Crawl, Tametsi, etc.) not by making the individual deductions manually, but by defining rules which can then be applied automatically to all available levels, assuming they pass a logic check. The venn-diagram interface may look intimidating at first, but it's very usable, and the UX/features are being actively being improved almost daily (at time of thread creation). As you progress, your access to levels, game modes, and ability to manage rules grows with unlocks.

[Placeholder for more explanation, screenshots, and/or videos]

What should I know before starting?

Double-clicking on one or more regions is the easiest way to make a new rule
It's not recommended to play through the full demo. Progress carries over to the main game, and rules that beat most of the demo will give you significant unlocks in the full game.
Double-click on a level set or a shape to see what your rules can do in that entire category, rather than just stopping on the "first" level your rules don't handle.
The game has a Discord server link inside of it, and people there can help you out, too.

FAQ/Advanced Tips

You cannot make a single rule that marks bombs and clears at the same time. But you can duplicate a rule to easily make a pair for that purpose.
If you're stuck on a level with four 1-bomb regions and a 3-bomb region because you're not allowed to make a rule about five regions: Either just skip that for now and work on the next column, or reread the help by clicking the question mark, and make a rule that creates a new region.
Resetting rules and/or levels doesn't remove your unlocks, so you can restart with more features.
When you unlock a maximum regions slider, it controls how many regions are allowed to be used when the solver tries to solve things.
You can speed up solving a bit by looking at a leaderboard or the rules list so that the levels don't even begin to render.
Use trash rules to cut down on the number of regions that have to be calculated with, and use visibility rules to make things manageable for your human eyes.
The fifth category (after hex, square, triangle...) has weekly levels refreshed on Thursdays.

dirby fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Jul 4, 2023

# ? Jul 4, 2023 19:11

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# ? May 4, 2024 21:31

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

[This post reserved for future use.
OP suggestions welcome.]

dirby fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Jul 5, 2023

# ? Jul 4, 2023 19:12

VictualSquid: Feb 29, 2012; Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.

I am just getting started after unlocking Variables.
And I do recommend that you double click every region regularly, to solve all the possible puzzles. Some of the unlocks make things much easier. Variables and Hiding especially. I just deleted my old rules and am making better rules with a variable.

I also unlocked a Maximum Regions slider, and have no idea what it does.

Also, the help screen mentions you can double click a rule to add it to the rule constructor. I had forgotten by the time I finished reading it, but it is very useful.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 19:44

ChewyLSB: Jan 13, 2008; Destroy the core

I played about 13 hours of the demo + full game but once I saw that the next unlock was a third variable I lost a bit of interest, because I assume the last bottom right unlock on the rules is a fourth variable.

I still really enjoyed the game and I could see myself going back to it at some point. Once rules start involving three regions it started breaking my brain a bit, and I was also having trouble thinking about how I would use the third variable.

Maximum regions I believe just limits the amount of displayable regions that can possibly be on the screen at any given point.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 20:06

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

ChewyLSB posted:

I played about 13 hours of the demo + full game but once I saw that the next unlock was a third variable I lost a bit of interest

Right before the third variable, you should have unlocked challenge game modes, which makes the game much bigger, in some senses.

VictualSquid posted:

I also unlocked a Maximum Regions slider, and have no idea what it does.

quote:

Maximum regions I believe just limits the amount of displayable regions that can possibly be on the screen at any given point.

Actually, it's about how many regions the solver is allowed to go up to (Edit: when solving a batch by double-clicking on it), whether or not anything is displaying. It will take longer to churn through the levels if that slider is high, but you might get more solves out of it if your rules tend to generate a lot of regions.

dirby fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Jul 6, 2023

# ? Jul 4, 2023 20:56

VictualSquid: Feb 29, 2012; Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.

Getting more into variables. And please tell me that there is x-const option somewhere somewhen to add to the x+const stuff.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 21:18

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

VictualSquid posted:

Getting more into variables. And please tell me that there is x-const option somewhere somewhen to add to the x+const stuff.

You can effectively get x-const by adding const to both sides of the equation. If you don't know what I mean by that, give me an example where you'd want to use x-const and I can explain how to achieve the same result with x+const.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 21:19

VictualSquid: Feb 29, 2012; Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.

dirby posted:

You can effectively get x-const by adding const to both sides of the equation. If you don't know what I mean by that, give me an example where you'd want to use x-const and I can explain how to achieve the same result with x+const.

In the specific case that annoyed me it was just a lot of clicking required to convert to rebasing the whole complex rule while I could have just set that one place to x-1 if it was possible.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 21:54

StrixNebulosa: Feb 14, 2012; You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

dirby I think you're trying to trick me into doing my math homework.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:07

Argue: Sep 29, 2005; I represent the Philippines

Is there a way to back up my rules before I reset them? I kinda wanna start over but if I lose energy to start from scratch I might just go back to my current set.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 13:35

Loddfafnir: Mar 27, 2021

Argue posted:

Is there a way to back up my rules before I reset them? I kinda wanna start over but if I lose energy to start from scratch I might just go back to my current set.

You can export your selected rules with the "Copy Rule to Clipboard" button:

Bombe Rules (6):
💣⠨⢵⠯⣽⡣⡂⣯⠺⠅⡛⠂⡝⠄⠀⡢⠄⠏⠕⢠⠵⡭⢯⡀⡋⢓⠍⠿⢯⣪⢆⣑⢖⣜⢒⢛⠻⢨⡿⣶⠁⠁⠷⣫⡪⡝⠴⣷⠍⢿⠿⡖⢷⡧⢳⣽⣒⡎⣿⢥⣇⣬⠕⠞⣍⢗⠉⡊⡲⢠⡔⢠⡤⠌⠄⢒⠊⠠⠛
⢼⣐⡎⡊⡫⢘⠃⠟⠝⢘⡔⣟⡄⣏⠈⡢⡲⡜⠖⠭⢅⣞⣯⡁⡜⣍⢂⢨⠳⢣⡂⢷⡍⢨⣩⡅⣧⣹⠠⠷⡀⢾⠀⣠⢱⠂⡥⢪⢙⠆⡚⢤⠗⣌⡴⠄⡭⣿⡴⠩⣕⢰⡸⢔⡁⡢⢄⣴⣏⣘⢴⡁⡂⡨⠁🛑

Loddfafnir fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Jul 5, 2023

# ? Jul 5, 2023 14:00

malnourish: Jun 16, 2023

This puzzle appears to have multiple solutions, I must be missing something

# ? Jul 6, 2023 15:26

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

malnourish posted:

This puzzle appears to have multiple solutions, I must be missing something

Two things:
1. Displayed information in the middle of a puzzle usually has "multiple solutions", since you potentially reveal a new number clue when you mark a cell as being clear.

2. In this case, hint: is there any cell you can be sure does/does not contain a bomb? Even if that doesn't solve everything, it should move you forward.

(If this were a more advanced puzzle, I'd also ask if there's a bunch of cells where you have some new information about the number of bombs among those cells, since after you've solved 20 puzzles, a rule can create a new region.)

dirby fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Jul 6, 2023

# ? Jul 6, 2023 15:39

malnourish: Jun 16, 2023

dirby posted:

Two things:
1. Displayed information in the middle of a puzzle usually has "multiple solutions", since you potentially reveal a new number clue when you mark a cell as being clear.

2. In this case, hint: is there any cell you can be sure does/does not contain a bomb? Even if that doesn't solve everything, it should move you forward.

(If this were a more advanced puzzle, I'd also ask if there's a bunch of cells where you have some new information about the number of bombs among those cells, since after you've solved 20 puzzles, a rule can create a new region.)

You're spot on. Thanks

# ? Jul 6, 2023 17:14

JeffRaze: Mar 13, 2021

Well, stumbled onto this gem and it's devouring my life haha. Been focusing on the three region mode, and just reached my goal of top ten in all board types.

# ? Jul 6, 2023 19:39

Kuule hain nussivan: Nov 27, 2008

I cannot figure out how to make a rule or play the game. I must be too much of an idiot for this game. Can anyone give me a "baby's first Bombe"-type of guide?

Edit: Ooooooh, so I don't create regions myself. Do I ever delete rules, or just create new ones?

Kuule hain nussivan fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Jul 7, 2023

# ? Jul 7, 2023 17:14

LibrarianCroaker: Mar 30, 2010

You can delete rules, but you don't need to in order to make progress. You might want to, if for example you have a bunch of rules that you realize you could have covered in one instead, as a trivial example:
"Oh I have different rules for regions of size 1-4 with 0 bombs in them, that could have been one rule for regions of size ? (don't care) with 0 bombs in them"

# ? Jul 7, 2023 17:32

Kuule hain nussivan: Nov 27, 2008

Yeah, I think I just opened up the rule list editor. It's a neat game, but hoo boy is this UI dense.

# ? Jul 7, 2023 17:44

Argue: Sep 29, 2005; I represent the Philippines

I get so annoyed when I come up with a great generic rule then realize the game doesn't actually let me do 0/x or x/y :mad:

# ? Jul 7, 2023 18:05

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

Kuule hain nussivan posted:

Can anyone give me a "baby's first Bombe"-type of guide?

Edit: Ooooooh, so I don't create regions myself. Do I ever delete rules, or just create new ones?

Double-click on a region to add it to the rule editor. Right-click on a rule editor region to remove it.
(After solving 20 puzzles) A rule can create a new region by clicking on, say, a number and putting it in multiple places instead of the bomb or clear icons.

# ? Jul 7, 2023 22:44

VictualSquid: Feb 29, 2012; Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.

What the hell, there is a hard mode?

I just went through this clickfest of almost identical rules for p- x+ and p x + and x/x+1 and x/x+2 all all those permutations. Did I miss an easier way?

VictualSquid fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jul 7, 2023

# ? Jul 7, 2023 22:47

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

VictualSquid posted:

Did I miss an easier way?

Probably. If you have a list of rules along the lines of A region of x/x+2 should generate a region of (x+2)- then all the rules you just created can follow from a shorter list of similar rules that just exploit that and have similar conclusions instead of what you did there. Finally, you could have a single rule like a region that's both x+ and x- is x, if you don't already.

dirby fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jul 7, 2023

# ? Jul 7, 2023 23:32

KNR: May 3, 2009

At least two easier ways. You can use ? as a region to create rules for "any region", and you can create a -x region for every x region so you don't have to double up on rules like you did for psi there.

I'm now at a point where I have to use the maximum region limit to keep the game playable, as I've got a couple of rules that cause explosions of thousands of regions, but which I don't want to get rid of because they also solved some hundreds of puzzles each. I could rewrite at least one of them into a more limited form that would still solve the level I originally created it for, but it's impossible to know how many of the additional levels need the full form.

# ? Jul 7, 2023 23:35

VictualSquid: Feb 29, 2012; Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.

KNR posted:

At least two easier ways. You can use ? as a region to create rules for "any region", and you can create a -x region for every x region so you don't have to double up on rules like you did for psi there.

I'm now at a point where I have to use the maximum region limit to keep the game playable, as I've got a couple of rules that cause explosions of thousands of regions, but which I don't want to get rid of because they also solved some hundreds of puzzles each. I could rewrite at least one of them into a more limited form that would still solve the level I originally created it for, but it's impossible to know how many of the additional levels need the full form.

I was thinking about doing it this way, but I wanted to avoid the problem you are describing in the second paragraph.

# ? Jul 7, 2023 23:59

JeffRaze: Mar 13, 2021

Rules that are useful but create way too many regions is honestly my least favourite part of this game.

# ? Jul 8, 2023 00:13

MrQueasy: Nov 15, 2005; Probiot-ICK

this game is super neat, I'm finding using question marks as much as possible creates good rule

# ? Jul 8, 2023 05:34

Omobono: Feb 19, 2013; That's it! No more hiding in tomato crates! It's time to show that idiota Germany how a real nation fights!

For pasta~! CHARGE!

MrQueasy posted:

this game is super neat, I'm finding using question marks as much as possible creates good rule

I think the meta-rule for rules is that the more general a rule is, the better it is, and question marks are a part of generalization. Once you start unlocking variables the possibilities start to make you taste the universe. Although I wish the interface had an easier way to set up subtractions; just because you can write any linear equation only using addition doesn't mean some quality of life wouldn't be amiss.

Two examples:

Incidentally, 0+ regions convey literally zero information and can be safely trashed, correct?

I have a couple hypotheses which I have no idea how to prove or disprove but I think are correct:
Definition 1: rule A generalizes rule B if every time rule B would trigger rule A also triggers with the same results. (Or better results but I have no loving clue how to precisely define 'better')
For the purpose of this definition, marking a region with a 0 or 0- is considered equivalent to marking it clear; marking a region with a number of bombs equal to its size is considered equivalent to marking that region as full of bombs.

Quick lemma, if A generalizes B then A cannot involve more regions than B;
it is possible for a rule involving n regions to have generalizations involving less than n regions, but I think the game recognizes rules with redundant regions and calls them impossible.

Definition 2: a rule is fully generalized if it has no generalization.

Hypothesis 1: a rule involving n regions can always be fully generalized such that no hard numbers* remains, but only variables and question marks. At most n variables are needed for this generalization.
*the hardcoded numbers e.g. x/x+2/x+4 or x+2* don't count

Note, even if this is correct what I assume is the fifth variable would still be a great quality of life unlock

Hypothesis 2: a fully generalized rule involving 2 or more regions cannot contain "clear" or "bomb" declarations.

# ? Jul 8, 2023 19:36

Mega64: May 23, 2008; I took the octopath less travelered,

And it made one-eighth the difference.

Loving this game, just gotta figure out a good way to generalize all these "1/2 intersecting with 5/7/9 creates a clear space here, but this won't work for 2/3 and 6/8/10 or 0/1 and 4/6/8" scenarios I keep running into, and also maybe figure out a more efficient way to create new regions from !x regions.

# ? Jul 8, 2023 19:37

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

Omobono posted:

I think the meta-rule for rules is that the more general a rule is, the better it is, and question marks are a part of generalization.

This is good for I guess what I'd call the middle-game. But for the late game unnecessary generalization will either take unwanted time to calculate, or create too many regions, or both.

quote:

Incidentally, 0+ regions convey literally zero information and can be safely trashed, correct?

I could imagine bad rulesets where they would make a difference, but it's probably better to trash them and then patch your ruleset if needed.

quote:

I think the game recognizes rules with redundant regions and calls them impossible.

I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly, but that doesn't sound like how the game works. Could you elaborate?

# ? Jul 8, 2023 19:58

Omobono: Feb 19, 2013; That's it! No more hiding in tomato crates! It's time to show that idiota Germany how a real nation fights!

For pasta~! CHARGE!

Yeah on that last one I was straight up wrong, I misunderstood when the game declares an impossibility ("illogical": this rule is not always true; "impossible": this region combination cannot exist). The game will let you build rules with useless regions.

Omobono fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jul 8, 2023

# ? Jul 8, 2023 20:44

JeffRaze: Mar 13, 2021

Has anyone been messing around with the 60 rule mode? I found it saves rules to have all regions with X bombs define a region with X- bombs and X+ bombs, even though it's ugly as sin doing that.

# ? Jul 8, 2023 21:54

KNR: May 3, 2009

I haven't stacked up to 60 yet, but I don't think it tracks visibility rules in that count. It does seem to track deleted rules, though.

# ? Jul 8, 2023 23:13

JeffRaze: Mar 13, 2021

Visibility rules are fine, it just slows things down to be making all the extra regions. Deleted or modified rules count to the total until you reset the levels. It'd be nice if they didn't count until they've been used at least once, but oh well.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 00:32

MrQueasy: Nov 15, 2005; Probiot-ICK

I found that once I unlocked variables, resetting the levels and the rules and starting over to be VERY satisfying and pretty fast.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 03:21

VictualSquid: Feb 29, 2012; Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.

Is there any way to make a rule that only works if x is even?

Got this rule:

And I could switch the x+3/... for a x+k/... but only if k is uneven. Can't find a way to do this without making several rules.

# ? Jul 23, 2023 12:12

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

VictualSquid posted:

Is there any way to make a rule that only works if x is even?

Got this rule:

And I could switch the x+3/... for a x+k/... but only if k is uneven. Can't find a way to do this without making several rules.

No, but you could consider having x/x+2/x+4 generate x+2* and then change your pictured rule to ingest that.

# ? Jul 23, 2023 13:48

VictualSquid: Feb 29, 2012; Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.

I suspect I have created an infinite loop of generation rules.

# ? Jul 29, 2023 22:08

KNR: May 3, 2009

The good news is that it's not possible to go infinite, as the rules cap out a constant of 32. You can check this by making x- into (x+1)-. The bad news is that "not technically infinite but might take weeks to compute them all" is a lot harder to fix than infinite.

# ? Jul 30, 2023 01:48

dirby: Sep 21, 2004; Helping goons with math

VictualSquid posted:

I suspect I have created an infinite loop of generation rules.

Here's my worst so far.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Jul 31, 2023 02:35

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# ? May 4, 2024 21:31

LibrarianCroaker: Mar 30, 2010

I reset my rules, got back to where i was with like, 1/10th using variables, and have spent the last 3 hours staring at puzzles i know how to solve trying to apply variables. 10/10

# ? Aug 10, 2023 03:29

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