Hell is Forever [Hazbin/Helluva Megathread]

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Hell is Forever [Hazbin/Helluva Megathread]

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Larryb posted:

I’m also kind of curious how the daughter of the literal ruler of Hell turned out to be such a creampuff (though to be fair, Moxxie exists in this world and he’s the son of a gangster) and how she and Vaggie came up with the idea for the hotel in the first place

Her description of her father suggests he's a creampuff himself. And, honestly, so does a reading of the biblical myths which doesn't take the entity asserting itself as the universe's just and benevolent "God" at face value: Lucifer's no perverted, evil psychopath, just someone who offered humanity the ability to perceive good from evil. This upsets Yahweh because, woops! his draconian subjugation of humanity to his petty whims is obviously pretty drat evil. But Yahweh still had power and cast Lucifer into the pit and shoveled generations upon generations of the worst humanity has to offer onto him.

Only need to look at Adam and Co. to see that, in the show's narrative, the forces of Heaven are fundamentally no different from (and certainly no better than) the demons; they just have power. I'd wager Charlie's going to realize before the show is over that the much vaunted goodness of heaven was a self-serving lie all along.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2024 06:28

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 18:06

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Adder Moray posted:

The lack of perception of good and evil is the reason that children are innocent, even when they do things that, should an adult do them, would be perceived as evil. Innocence means the freedom to do as you please without actually committing sin, because you have no concept of what is right and what is wrong.

That's the entire reason that Lucifer was jealous of humanity in the first place. Because they were actually free to do as they pleased, save for one thing, while angels were not.

So pre-apple humans were pet psychopaths Yahweh had running around in a zoo doing who knows what and, when Lucifer encouraged Eve to use her mind to consider the impact of her actions (and perhaps critically assess her relationship with Yahweh), Yahweh cast them out into abject desperation and imposed eternal damnation any human who'd violate his rules? And then failed to provide concrete evidence that his rules and consequences exist?

Lucifer again comes off as a friend to humanity in that take.

e: more directly thread-relevant content: Hazbin good; Helluva Boss good; more please!

Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Jan 21, 2024

# ¿ Jan 21, 2024 08:07

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Megillah Gorilla posted:

Having grown up in a really lovely home, I was never able to see the garden of eden story as anything other than an abusive parent hurting his children for daring to defy him in the smallest way.

Yeah, the whole thing, really. "You're innately rotten and I'm the only one who loves you. I saw you walking near Zeus the other day—are you loving cheating on me? I've sacrificed everything for you and still you can't abide by my indisputable law? I will loving torture you for the rest of eternity and the only route to salvation is your devotion to me." is just textbook abusive relationship.

Adder Moray posted:

I don't find contrarian readings of fiction particularly interesting, though.

EDIT: And I mean that irrespective of how you feel about God's role in the story. The serpent literally lies on page to Eve about what the tree does in order to get her to eat the fruit, deliberately sabotaging paradise.

You're accepting the Biblical framing as the objective truth of what occurred, rather than a potentially self-serving retelling through the lens of a party that was really upset about their toys embracing their critical faculties :cheeky:

I enjoy fiction that reassesses the framing of plots from well-known stories. To immediately reject such as "contrarian" is to be overly wedded to the source material. While some works along those lines are absolutely just a naive "no, gently caress you, dad!" rebellion or being edgy for clicks, there's some great content out there.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2024 18:09

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

The Last Call posted:

Good news, we are going to learn about all the characters that were human.

As in, we'll actually see them when they were human.

Or so Viv said.

Ooh, that'd be neat. I'd love for the show to explore whether the sins that damned them to eternal hellfire were actually monstrous or just the mundane, pathetic mistakes of your average flawed, stressed human beings, leading Charlie to a "Wait... Heaven, bad??" epiphany.

Not sure they'd go that route, though, as it doesn't jive perfectly with HB's worldbuilding and might not be zany enough for the show's tone.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2024 23:14

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

I want Satan to be gigantic and powerful, but by imp standards, so... what, five-foot-five?

# ¿ Jan 22, 2024 05:59

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Adder Moray posted:

And if he ever did use them to claw back his his status, Alastor would then own an overlord, making the deal worth it.

Theoretically, but Husk clearly resents being a pawn. Alastor would have to be on guard against active efforts to negate the deal or, at least, malicious compliance.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2024 04:07

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Hazbin's at the whims of the streaming gods, unfortunately, and they are fickle as gently caress. I don't think Amazon has been quite as fickle as Netflix lately, but there's risk there.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2024 16:41

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Ep. 5: I loved Lucifer being an endearing sad sack, especially his coming through for Charlie after setting aside his own baggage. The accusation of Alastor being on a leash is interesting... one would assume bound to Lilith, though the exact nature of that will be interesting to see. Either subjugated after he turned his sights on her or, worse, fallen in love? The latter would explain both the competition with Lucifer and the reason for his helping out.

I really wish the show got a bigger budget, because KeeKee, Fat Nuggets, and Razzle and Dazzle deserve more screen time. Really need a goat and a pig bound in matrimony now and forever.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2024 05:27

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

The Last Call posted:

Here you think they'd praise the whole trying to redeem sinners.

Salvation can only be found through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. The most abhorrent sinner may find a path to heaven through Jesus, but no amount of self-correction can save the sinner who refuses God's hand. And everyone is a sinner.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2024 06:35

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

My chief complaint about the show is that it's moving way too fast. Feels like an abridged version of a story that could be better fleshed out, with these major beats landing harder with some additional character development and world building.

On the other hand, we have enough great animated TV that took the slow road toward where they wanted their stories to go, slipped in favor with the execs, and then either rushed to the finish line or got nothing. Maybe better to start off at a sprint?

e: typo

Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Jan 26, 2024

# ¿ Jan 26, 2024 16:22

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Hidingo Kojimba posted:

My speculation: By the end of the season Adam will have been booted (whether he "falls" or just gets fired) and Emily will be given his job as ambassador to Hell.

Where would season 2 go from there, though? I could see instead Emily gets booted for resisting the divine plan and Adam coups Sera, leaving the next season building toward all out war instead of the skirmish of the extermination.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2024 18:21

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

I'll celebrate if, after getting rejected by heaven despite demonstrating unambiguous goodness, Angel ends up saved after having a graphically intimate 5-minute relationship with Jesus Christ.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2024 20:59

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Adder Moray posted:

But whether or not a soul can be redeemed needs to be answered.

I think you've missed the core reveal in the last episode: who cares if a soul can be "redeemed" when the criteria for salvation and damnation are not only unknown, but unquestionable. If basic explanatory questions could land even the "virtuous" in Hell, the whole system is at best fundamentally broken and at worst evilly tyrannical. Either way, it needs to be taken down.

Or maybe I'm just projecting my own criticisms of the biblical myths onto the show :shrug:

# ¿ Jan 28, 2024 18:50

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Really hoping that by the end of the show we get the visual pun of Lucifer literally getting his piles and piles of ducks in a row as he gets his poo poo together.

# ¿ Jan 29, 2024 16:07

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Kaiser Mazoku posted:

Is there some deep Bible lore reason why Lucifer loves ducks so much?

You know how it's weird that there are old pirate ships everywhere? Both are explained by Lucifer having been around for so long that a cosmic ray flipped a bit in his brain and changed an "o" to a "u".

The fanbase is praying it jumps again to an "i".

# ¿ Jan 29, 2024 17:20

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

M_Gargantua posted:

You're going to have to explain that more. I am a nerd, and get the bit flip part, but not the pirate part or what word you're trying to vowel substitute.

Dock -> Duck -> Dick

Was the best I could come up with :shrug:

# ¿ Jan 29, 2024 17:32

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Flopsy posted:

I think that's the most interesting mystery around Alastor, whether or not he actually is starting to give a drat about her or it's all a part of the long con on his part.

I mean, trailer spoilers, but his vibes at Charlie outlining all the reasons for their imminent doom is "Steady, young padawan" and more "gently caress yes, leverage!"

# ¿ Jan 31, 2024 04:05

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Season wrapped up well. However, it's left unanswered one essential question: what the gently caress are the egg boys, canonically? Are they Hell-born? Sinners? Eldritch abominations?

# ¿ Feb 3, 2024 19:02

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Big plus one on praise for the shows avoiding the typical "adult comedy = unnecessarily mean" pitfall.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2024 12:20

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

I walked by a solid Lucifer cosplay at a Starbucks near Sakuracon this morning. Suit, wings, hat and all. I was too lazy to stop to ask for a rubber duck, angry fiddle noises, or a photo, sadly :effort:

# ¿ Mar 31, 2024 06:25

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Nessus posted:

How tall were they?

Middling! They were looking resplendent in the window without a good point of reference.

Lammasu posted:

Man or woman?

Lucifer! Given the getup, they might have been an alien from Ceti Alpha V, for all I could tell in passing :cheeky:

# ¿ Mar 31, 2024 15:44

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

But how in Hell is Happy Day in Hell so low??

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 01:17

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

CidGregor posted:

Also am I a weirdo for not really liking Respectless much?

Nah, it's easily the weakest of the bunch for me for exactly the reasons you outline.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 06:46

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Dapper_Swindler posted:

saw this on a thread and wanted to share. no idea about the artist.

# ¿ Apr 18, 2024 05:49

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 18:06

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

The Last Call posted:

Even got redeemed which based on how he acted made the most sense. Out of them all he was the less "evil".

Is there a canonical backstory for why he wound up in hell like there is for the others? (I assume anything not on screen is actually still subject to change, but still)

# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 22:50

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Hell is Forever [Hazbin/Helluva Megathread]