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Android Apocalypse posted:I took the inability of men to overcome walls as an issue that girls don't play with Ken dolls like they do with Barbies; they're more or less accessories and are not played with as much. It could well be all of the above. There's clearly an intentional blending of jokes, metaphors and social commentary.
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Sep 6, 2023 08:53
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More houses should have a waterslide leading from the bedroom to a pool in the kitchen.
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Sep 6, 2023 09:17
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Living that rooftop patio oven life.
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Sep 6, 2023 14:23
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Halloween Jack posted:Living that rooftop patio oven life. Two ovens, no toilets.
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Sep 6, 2023 17:25
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End of Shoelace posted:The way to understand the use of "pretentious" in casual online criticism is to take the etymological root, "praetendo", as in to pretend. It's seen that something is pretending to be something else, to let something sinister slip through under the guise. "There was a catastrophic failure in making the movie that stops it from being good, so it was covered up from being seen as a failed movie by being pretentious", etc. "Pretentious" does not mean something sinister is slipping through. It means "You are trying to make a movie that will be perceived as intellectual/artsy/prestigious, and I the reviewer don't think you've pulled it off." IIRC nobody was calling Gosford Park pretentious, even though it's about class divisions in a wealthy British family's weekend house party.
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Sep 6, 2023 18:05
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Splint Chesthair posted:Two ovens, no toilets. check again
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Sep 7, 2023 00:29
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Finally watched this. Overall I enjoyed it but I was getting whiplash from moment to moment on having a great time and being so bored. Basically, whenever the film slowed down to deliver a direct point on patriarchy I felt like it was overplaying it's hand. I get why - this is a film that will have a big child/tween audience and they want to be direct and make sure the message is delivered, but I think being so direct about it only revealed how rarefied the perspective on feminism in this is. Talking about having to be everything as a woman - I've never actually heard a woman in real life talk this way, or say it is a pressure they feel. Some aspects of it, sure, but I think this is something connected and priveleged women feel acutely due to their circumstances and pressure they put on themselves as much as is coming from the outside world. It also felt pretty out of date, things have improved to the extent that most of the patriarchy criticism isn't relevant anymore except possibly in the circles of CEOs which again, rarefied. Otherwise, the film was good fun and I enjoyed the comedy of the Ken's, although yeah their form of macho is probably about 15 years out of date but that makes sense considering Gerwig and Baumbauch are behind this and are a bit older. That even sort of plays into how the standout moments of the film mostly come from Ken - he gets most of the laugh lines, and the Ken's get the big musical number, while the Barbie's are generally just smart and capable. It's a dynamic straight out of a 90's sitcom, really. I appreciated Ken's general arc from a toddler to a rebellious teen to a young man finding the start of self-acceptance. That came through clearly. Barbie's arc didn't, and the movie even highlights this at the end, having to directly interrogate what her ending is. I do like the line about wanting to be the one who imagines and not that idea, but I think the movie was really struggling to find satisfaction here having to go to a montage of random girls and woman and having the weirdly inserted Ruth Handler character show up. Interesting movie. roomtone fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Sep 9, 2023 |
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Sep 9, 2023 13:59
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also michael cera as allan was really underused. they keep cutting to him but he never says much.
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Sep 9, 2023 14:22
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The movie feels locked in an unresovable conondrum because it doesn't know if existence preceeds essence, or not. Is Barbieland a Platonic World of Forms that structures human reality, or is it a mere epiphenomenon of underlying material conditions? The obvious answer is "both," but because this is a product of neoliberal capital, the tendency is to assign priority to the former idea--hence when Ken takes over Barbieland, Ken toys suddenly begin to sell like hotcakes. But, as has already been pointed out, the Real World in the movie's fiction is itself a kind of frothy How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying satire. This is probably the only way for Gerwig to portray a multinational CEO as a basically well-meaning guy, but how does this reflect back on Gloria and the real Real World? She is, in this unseen third reality, presumably some kind of high level executive with dreams of actually working in the company's more creative/design departments. Unfortunately this really real story is so obfuscated by layers of imagination and simulation it's almost impossible to discern the real narrative in play here. As near as I can tell this movie is about a tween girl who is alienated from her mother because she perceives her as a functionary in a demonic court, poisoning the world's biosphere with its plastic waste and poisoning the world soul with its alien and unsustainable vision of midcentury American prosperity. However, the girl learns to forgive her mother by identifying with her purer, prelapsarian childhood love of said products. Redemption is a function of internal change--the product and its consequences may be demonic, but our feelings about them are not.
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Sep 9, 2023 23:24
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roomtone posted:things have improved to the extent that most of the patriarchy criticism isn't relevant anymore except possibly in the circles of CEOs which again, rarefied. What? Patriarchy is over, let us all have balloons? News to me.
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Sep 10, 2023 00:44
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Arsenic Lupin posted:What? Patriarchy is over, let us all have balloons? News to me. It’s like how racism ended in 2008
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Sep 11, 2023 16:51
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porfiria posted:The movie feels locked in an unresovable conondrum because it doesn't know if existence preceeds essence, or not. Is Barbieland a Platonic World of Forms that structures human reality, or is it a mere epiphenomenon of underlying material conditions? The obvious answer is "both," but because this is a product of neoliberal capital, the tendency is to assign priority to the former idea--hence when Ken takes over Barbieland, Ken toys suddenly begin to sell like hotcakes. Because both Barbie Land and the Real World are subjectivized via Gloria, I think the film’s narrative does sustain an existentialist position, but with a U.S. liberal flavor. In Barbie Land, artificiality is transparent, whereas the real world lacks artifice in a self-reflexive manner, such as men straightforwardly affirming and reveling in the abstract concept of patriarchy. But it’s not just society, as the fraught relationship with her daughter Sasha includes a reference to herself as a “tween” going on an absurd adventure. She is emotionally distant, rude to her mother and, coincidentally, has a cartoonish reputation for being acid-tongued among her peers. She tears down Gloria's Barbie, someone that she acknowledges may be mentally unwell. One of her strikes is declaring her a fascist, which Barbie later remarks through tears is ahistorical/nonsensical, emphasizing the naivety of the daughter’s leftism. Real world knowledge and actions cause seismic changes in Barbie Land, but those resultant changes have specific Real World effects. As existence precedes essence, people are written and can continually be rewritten, and this opens the space to create cultural products that shape us with intentionality. So yes, the film opens up with the fantasy of Barbie helping to free women from the tyranny of reproductive labor, and shortly thereafter reveals that real world women are still oppressed; but being rendered a cause of destroying girls/women’s self-esteem with unrealistic ideals, lack of diversity, etc., still operates under the pretense that the correct consumption of cultural products can deal real positive change. To put it in psychoanalytic terms, symptomatic enjoyment is derived through anger/wallowing in how Barbie failed us, because it means she can still save us. With Mid Barbie as proof of concept, we can align our ethical values with corporate/market values and de-sexualize capitalism. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Sep 17, 2023 |
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Sep 15, 2023 17:27
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roomtone posted:also michael cera as allan was really underused. they keep cutting to him but he never says much. 
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Sep 16, 2023 20:21
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My biggest complaint about this movie is that they settled on Push for their “dude with an acoustic guitar” mockery segment when it really should have been that Vertical Horizon song.
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Sep 16, 2023 20:31
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it would have hit hardest for me if it was scar tissue by thr chilli peppers but i think thats a very age specific acoustic guitar guy song
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Sep 16, 2023 22:18
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I mean, Push is also age specific.
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Sep 16, 2023 22:29
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I'd never heard Push before but it sounded so incredibly generic that I thought they'd just made up a song with nonsense lyrics and a few guitar strums for the movie
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Sep 16, 2023 22:46
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I’d never heard of Push having a big “guy with a guitar” fanbase but when it started playing in this movie I did think “oh I’ve always loving hated that song.” Maybe an earlier draft used Wonderwall.
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Sep 17, 2023 00:37
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Did this movie come off as incredibly terfy to anyone else?
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Sep 17, 2023 02:17
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Many!
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Sep 17, 2023 02:51
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tokin opposition posted:Did this movie come off as incredibly terfy to anyone else? Came off earlier where while that might be a reading, the ending kinda comes off as actually more valid as an at least trans-adjacent reading.
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Sep 17, 2023 05:23
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I was too busy looking at Hari Nef to consider that reading
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Sep 17, 2023 09:07
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La Louve Rouge posted:I was too busy looking at Hari Nef to consider that reading IDK, the scene where Barbie becomes an Adult Human Chicken was a bit suspect.
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Sep 17, 2023 16:51
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Space Fish posted:Barbie - Queer enough to enrage right-wing culture warriors, Cishet enough to disappoint trans community
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Sep 17, 2023 20:46
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Came off earlier where while that might be a reading, the ending kinda comes off as actually more valid as an at least trans-adjacent reading. Yeah, TERFism is a pretty specific ideology with a revanchist fervor, so we should be precise. Like is Simone de Beauvoir's The Second Sex incredibly terfy?
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Sep 18, 2023 16:01
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de Beauvoir argued that a woman is not something you are born but something you become; however, she was against it. *laughs in Medusa*
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Sep 18, 2023 20:46
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Finally got around to actually seeing this. I'd totally listen to the podcast of two wise trees. I also get the impression that Mattel as depicted is basically the hinterland between Barbie World and The Real World, where while the executives and employees do live in the real world there's an influence of the Barbie World going both ways. Like the ghost. They are very much cynical greedy capitalists but also have interest and personal investment in the products they make at least to a degree. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Sep 19, 2023 |
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Sep 19, 2023 12:03
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exquisite tea posted:My biggest complaint about this movie is that they settled on Push for their “dude with an acoustic guitar” mockery segment when it really should have been that Vertical Horizon song. Push makes more sense since the whole song is about a guy thinking hes being taken advantage of/being emotionally abused by a woman. The song is from the woman's perspective, so it makes sense that the Kens who worship the Barbies would latch on to that.
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Sep 19, 2023 13:45
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I also figured that Push is right in Greta Gerwig's wheelhouse as she's a Gen X'er.
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Sep 19, 2023 15:02
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I find the interesting notes that when the Barbies have taken Barbieland back, and mentioned they've very actively redone their dream houses, they've visibly kept some of the changes. The Hummer is still there, just pink instead of black, and the saloon doors on the main Barbie's house, and some of the horse pictures. (Kinda funny given I'm fairly sure there's been Barbie horses, and Equestrian Barbie to ride them, being one of the other things stereotypical girls are infamously obsessed with) That touch of the real world once it gets in sticks more than the 'brainwashing' does because it's just aesthetic tastes, and even the Barbies are individuals who can pick and choose whether or not they like something on its own merits and their personal opinions. Also kinda funny given a lot of toylines aimed at girls diversify basically just taking 'masculine' stuff and dipping it in pink to get through the pink aisle/blue aisle ironclad embargo. Nerf had the Rebelle line a while back, and Lego has Lego Friends. (not to be confused with the Friends Lego) A lot of parents refuse to buy girls anything that isn't pink or otherwise stereotypically girly, unfortunately, so there's a way to sneak stuff into that market. The intro is also interesting from the metaphorical standpoint if you see it through Gloria's head- that she remembers Barbie being the groundbreaking replacement to her baby dolls, which she quickly and eagerly discarded in favour of the grown-up doll. And the gender stereotype stuff is extra interesting given Barbieland does not have men and women; it has Barbies and Kens, and then the others, Allen and Midge and the Skippers, who are outside this dichotomy. Allen actually seems to have been assigned a 'female' role, lumped in with the Barbies, under the Ken regime and actively wants to escape it, and he says he's the only remaining holdout after the rest of the Allens fled to the real world, as likely a lot of Barbieland's edge cases have. And then there's the two infamous Ken dolls hiding out with Weird Barbie, who aren't fitting in with it either. Seems a decent enough metaphor- as has been put, patriarchy doesn't and isn't meant to actually benefit men, it's meant to benefit patriarchs, and it's clear quite a few Kens aren't actually happy with the change- including the 'main' one. Also I was just glad the song wasn't Wonderwall.
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Sep 19, 2023 15:09
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I think the most obnoxious acoustic guitar guy song is inevitably generation specific. But that's in keeping with Gloria's weirdly specific 00s idea of what a douchebag guy is like. For me the song would be "Hallelujah," but then again, that's also an obnoxious acoustic guitar song for all genders.
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Sep 19, 2023 15:13
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I feel like those very specific generation and cultural markets were probably on purpose, at least leaned into, and very much made it funnier. The movie generally considers subtlety to be for cowards, and I respect it, but the bit where Gloria says the Barbies (and Kens) got brainwashed by patriarchy so easily by comparing it to the New World being devastated by introduced European diseases they had no defence against is at least for me actually a very helpful bit of exposition, at least with explaining how it works in the movie's internal logic- they have extremely flimsy senses of self and never had any reason to question anything they're told, of course they're incredibly easy to basically reprogram. (and the deprogramming is basically inoculating them with explanations of how sexism and misogyny works and pointing out its contradictions) Also makes sense that the 'weird' Barbies and Kens aren't as affected, as they actually have had reasons to struggle with their identities and thus develop personalities and coping mechanisms.
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Sep 19, 2023 15:28
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Halloween Jack posted:I think the most obnoxious acoustic guitar guy song is inevitably generation specific. But that's in keeping with Gloria's weirdly specific 00s idea of what a douchebag guy is like. For me the song would be "Hallelujah," but then again, that's also an obnoxious acoustic guitar song for all genders. Hallelujah raises the question of whether the joke is funnier if it’s a bad song, or a good song being butchered.
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Sep 19, 2023 15:37
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The only thing that would've been better would have been that one Green Day song.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:19
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I mean also it's obviously not even supposed to just represent whatever random acoustic guitar song that douchey guys play*, the lyrical content is also very important here. "I want to push you around...I want to take you for granted..." etc. The Kens (and by extension Gloria) have presumably misunderstood the point of the song, but from their POV they are expressing this desire to do the same things to the Barbies that they feel were done to them (being controlling/manipulative toward them and taking them for granted). * really they should have just reused the awesome Wings joke from Role Models here
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Sep 19, 2023 17:19
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Ghost Leviathan posted:
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Sep 19, 2023 21:08
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On a more subtle note, apparently the daughter and her friends are introduced in a way that's clearly a reference to Bratz, another doll franchise with an... interesting history with Barbie. Ed: post credits scene shoulda been Beach Ken meeting Equestrian Barbie. (That is, horseriding Barbie, not Barbie the My Little Pony. ...that's a different sequel hook.) Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Sep 20, 2023 |
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Sep 20, 2023 07:16
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Ghost Leviathan posted:
As you noted, Barbie Land isn’t populated with real people, but effects of real people projecting their desires and anxieties onto Mattel’s products. Obviously, this simulation-within-a-simulation lacks the complexity of the real world in numerous dimensions, so the task at hand is to examine how things are abstracted and to what end. For example, the opening of the film depicts Barbie Land overturning the Citizens United case ruling, positing a diverse Supreme Court with sufficient feminine energy to leash the rapaciousness of Capital. The film plays out the war of gender & identity within all of this abstraction, and the precise usage of the inoculation metaphor is illustrative of how short-hand/simplification can transform things entirely. quote:For several decades, historians have emphasized a single cause for Native depopulation: the so-called “virgin soil” epidemics that occurred when Europeans first arrived in North America. According to the virgin soil epidemic theory, Europeans brought crowd diseases, especially smallpox and measles, for which Native Americans had no immunity. The consequence was population collapses of 70 percent or more for almost every Native community that came in direct or indirect contact with Europeans. Recent scholarship, however, has shown that virgin soil epidemics did not occur everywhere and that Native populations did not inevitably crash as a result of contact. Most Indigenous communities were eventually afflicted by a variety of diseases, but in many cases this happened long after Europeans first arrived. When severe epidemics did hit, it was often less because Native bodies lacked immunity than because European colonialism disrupted Native communities and damaged their resources, making them more vulnerable to pathogens. (Jeffrey Ostler, Surviving Genocide) So there certainly were epidemics brought about by Europeans, but the narrative of the “virgin-soil epidemic theory”, was effective in occluding the concrete policies and actions taken by the United States to devastate the indigenous population; and in shifting the discourse from racial inferiority to the more politically correct biological weakness, re-configure an atrocity to an up-to-date natural accident of History. In the film, this abstraction is leveraged to explain another abstract conflict: the patriarchal brainwashing and subsequent feminist deprogramming of Barbies via a speech entirely divorced from history/economics/etc. Women are not Cringe (Waitresses, Cheerleaders, Maids); they are actually Based (Politicians, Writers, Scientists)! KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Sep 21, 2023 |
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Sep 20, 2023 15:38
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Android Apocalypse posted:I also figured that Push is right in Greta Gerwig's wheelhouse as she's a Gen X'er. The movie's gotten riffed for being extremely Gen X in viewpoint, but I feel like it ends up being a strength in that they just lean right into that and give the movie a coherent vision and aesthetic, rather than trying to catch up to 90s and 00s Barbie branding that even most kids from those eras don't remember much of anyway. (Besides the one-off bad idea dolls of course) And it also works with the generation gap theme with the daughter, and how silly and weird Barbieland is from a human viewpoint. Also how the Kens are meant to come off as huge dorks play-acting masculinity. KVeezy3 posted:In the film, this abstraction is leveraged to explain another abstract conflict: the patriarchal brainwashing and subsequent feminist deprogramming of Barbies via a speech entirely divorced from history/economics/etc. Women are not Cringe (Waitresses, Cheerleaders, Maids); they are actually Based (Politicians, Writers, Scientists)! Not wrong on the points but also lol that works in the movie specifically because the Barbies are incredibly shallow and easily reprogrammed by basic propaganda. (also that history and economies are completely foreign to their world)
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Sep 29, 2023 03:54
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Should've been Despacito
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Sep 29, 2023 04:56
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