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L.H.O.O.Q. posted:Looking for the counterpart is natural and there often will be one set in opposition but often there’s just absence. ‘Class’ takes gender and patriarchy right back out of the equation, though I see how that is the go to system to talk about assignations of value. But we can work with the patriarchal creation of a masculine ‘upper class’ and a feminine ‘lower class’. Value is ascribed to ‘things men do’. Taking art as an example, ceramics and textile works were for the longest time seen as lesser materials compared to painting and sculpture. Or another example, in popular culture, the artist who wrapped things up is Christo. Completely writing out Jeanne-Claude, the equal partner in the practice, until fairly recently. Or food preparation. Cooking is ‘women’s work’. A woman’s place is in the kitchen etc. But at the same time we have the Michelin star masculine chef culture created, with ‘brigades’ of sous-chefs and more such militarisms. Class doesn't take anything out of the equation. That's not how it works. Labour is extremely 'Masculine' coded with sweaty men in singlets and hard hats working in factories, construction or even just wearing suits and issuing commands at the top of the boardroom, while wealth is 'feminine' coded with leisure and pampering, engaging in delicate and sissy sports and hobbies and wearing fancy clothes and going to fancy social events, something women celebrate and men tolerate. That this is contradictory and absurd is the point, because the standards cannot be lived up to. They don't make sense, they aren't real, and they don't work. That's one of the reasons they're a problem. Like Barbie literally spells this out with how she's held to absolutely ridiculous and contradictory standards that she can only embody by being inhuman and unreal. This also of course ignores women who have always done backbreaking labour; you rarely see Fruit Picker Barbie, Fast Food Worker Barbie, Parentified Sibling Barbie, etc. Because another one of the criticisms of Barbie as a movie and a franchise is an extremely upper-middle-class White Feminist idea of womanhood, and the general problems of said strain of feminism basically being rich white women who are miffed that they haven't gotten their turn to run the empire. Also not to mention in your example you've got film being coded as a 'bro' thing, of tedious annoying tryhard film bro jock-nerds Snyderbro bro bros who demand all this effort into things while girls just turn your phone sideways and post it to TikTok, which is ludicrously sexist in about every direction for a lot of reasons and wildly ignorant of the history and present of film, media and culture. Sometimes people are being gatekept because they genuinely do just expect to be praised and rewarded just for showing up and don't expect to have to put any effort into it, and wilfully ignore the history of women actually being in movies, making movies, writing movies etc. Yes, it basically goes like that bit where Lisa wants to play football. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Aug 6, 2023 |
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Aug 6, 2023 08:50
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| # ¿ May 21, 2024 02:46 |
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Yes, just the problem is many approaches to feminism uncritically buy into the patriarchy's narratives and thus you end up with several dozen 'the first female superhero' and 'the first gay character in Star Wars' among other things. The people who have the loudest platforms don't want to do the hard work of excavating those erased narratives and the untold histories of media rather than sweeping aside all that tainted and incorrect media that I imagine the people who vaguely annoy me like, to be replaced with fresh new correct media, which incidentally appeals exactly to me and all my tastes and also makes me lots of money.
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Aug 6, 2023 09:40
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porfiria posted:Is it a sign of cultural progress or regression that instead of pwning nerds over Prometheus SMG has to pwn libs over Barbie? Libs are just the next step up from nerds. SMG has levelled up.
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Aug 7, 2023 06:27
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The whole joke is about Barbie's famous lack of genitals being subverted. You're thinking into it way too hard.
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Aug 12, 2023 09:39
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And that is actually a very trans thing to deal with the messy realities of biology rather than the elaborate kayfabe of barely a at best having a physical existence that patriarchy demands.
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Aug 12, 2023 12:59
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Starship Troopers came up in a few places recently and I think part of why it aged so terrifyingly well is because as well as predicting post-9/11 (or maybe just accurately showing that America would react in the worst ways possible to an actual disaster) it also doesn't just stick to going 'Boy, fascists sure are bad' but predicts rainbow capitalism and its false promises as well, with the whole deal that the only way to get any say in the government is to enter a process of being indoctrinated and trained to be an obedient instrument of state violence, and anyone who still maintains dissident ideas after that and/or is part of an unwanted group can just be dropped right on the front lines. Also that it's a system constitutionally incapable of actually responding to real problems, because it's entirely built around deflecting attention from actual complaints onto scapegoats while defending the ruling class. Hence the movie gets rid of the power armour and wunderwaften to just have the light infantry be expendable spotters for the presumed total air dominance, privatisation has rotted away even the capacity to wage war. Also the implication that the 'psychics' are glorified palm readers. Ferrinus posted:It's easy to square the circle on Starship Troopers: neat, tidy, law-and-order liberalism is fascism. Wild-eyed dictators are optional, while the carceral and military apparatuses staunchly upholding free markets aren't. Which fittingly came up around the Supreme Court decision banning affirmative action college admissions specifically having an exception for West Point.
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Aug 13, 2023 00:46
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Bogus Adventure posted:I personally like how almost everyone in mobile infantry are people with aspirations of a better life: the woman who wants to be a politician (leavesafter the farm kid gets his head blown off in training), the man who got into Harvard but was too poor to pay for it (first Klendathu drop victim), the woman who wants to be a mother (panics when Harvard dies, runs, falls in a hole and gets dragged off by bugs), and the man who wants to be a journalist (eaten after the reporter is eaten by a bug---whose death is filmed by the camera man). They're all braving the meat grinder, and they end up worse off (dejected or dead). That's exactly the point, I'm pretty sure.
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Aug 13, 2023 02:28
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I'm pretty sure the whole premise of the movie is basically at least to a degree actual magical realism; trying to make sense of things from a fully literal perspective is going about it the wrong way, metaphor and reality are blended for the story, as it literally plays with the ideas of real and fake, superficiality and the complexity of the real world vs fictional archetypes, and so on. It's actually pretty common in toy based movies, at least with Toy Story and The Lego Movie both having what I'd call magical realist elements. (Small Soldiers is not, but I'm mentioning it anyway because it's baller) Calvin and Hobbes also comes to mind. Imagination is about things that aren't physically real, but ideas, characters and archetypes very much take on a real life of their own as they are shared, they are known and living things just as important in their own way as many physical things.
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Aug 14, 2023 06:47
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If anything, the whole thing of Barbie having her physical sexual characteristics actively changing from what she's used to in line with her new understanding of her own identity and gearing up to face the new mundane realities of taking care of her body with proper medical specialists is arguably more of a trans narrative than not.
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Aug 18, 2023 07:05
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One reason subtlety is overrated is that for some viewers you genuinely have to explain what you're going for, not even necessarily because they're stupid, but because you can't expect all of them to come from the same background and expectations that would make what might seem obvious to you the same kind of obvious to them.
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Aug 23, 2023 08:44
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Yeah; you got a movie like WALL-E (a fuckin’ Disney-Pixar joint, even!) that blasts Barbie out of the water with its many gender gags, since it’s all grounded in the robots’ embodiment. Heh, blasts. Because the girl robot has a blaster cannon and uses it liberally.
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Aug 24, 2023 04:15
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The Hunger Games are kinda funny for being used as go-to examples of the supposedly lazy and juvenile YA dystopia genre, but compared to drat near every other example of the genre and its stablemates they seem pretty solid. The whole point is that the social divisions are arbitrary and only exist as a means of social control, and the presentation as a mix of gladiatorial games and reality TV making lurid entertainment out of the lower classes literally forced to fight for survival, with the survivors being made celebrities while suffering trauma and alienation, has aged all too well.
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Sep 5, 2023 07:25
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mycot posted:Finally: is there anything I'm not getting about the running joke about nobody being able to understand the concept of walls? Allan can't jump a fence, Will Ferrel can't get over the cubical wall, the construction Kens can't build horizontally...
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Sep 6, 2023 06:35
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mycot posted:See I would accept that no question if it was just the dolls but that bit with Will Ferrell made me pause because he's not a doll, he's human. Maybe this is a parallel meant to show that the Kens are based on real men, but then Allan does it too even though he's not a Ken...I may be overthinking this. Yeah, I was wondering about that bit. Maybe it is indeed just a bit to demonstrate that he's not so different from a Ken, and/or maintain a running gag.
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Sep 6, 2023 06:58
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Android Apocalypse posted:I took the inability of men to overcome walls as an issue that girls don't play with Ken dolls like they do with Barbies; they're more or less accessories and are not played with as much. It could well be all of the above. There's clearly an intentional blending of jokes, metaphors and social commentary.
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Sep 6, 2023 08:53
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tokin opposition posted:Did this movie come off as incredibly terfy to anyone else? Came off earlier where while that might be a reading, the ending kinda comes off as actually more valid as an at least trans-adjacent reading.
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Sep 17, 2023 05:23
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Finally got around to actually seeing this. I'd totally listen to the podcast of two wise trees. I also get the impression that Mattel as depicted is basically the hinterland between Barbie World and The Real World, where while the executives and employees do live in the real world there's an influence of the Barbie World going both ways. Like the ghost. They are very much cynical greedy capitalists but also have interest and personal investment in the products they make at least to a degree. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Sep 19, 2023 |
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Sep 19, 2023 12:03
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I find the interesting notes that when the Barbies have taken Barbieland back, and mentioned they've very actively redone their dream houses, they've visibly kept some of the changes. The Hummer is still there, just pink instead of black, and the saloon doors on the main Barbie's house, and some of the horse pictures. (Kinda funny given I'm fairly sure there's been Barbie horses, and Equestrian Barbie to ride them, being one of the other things stereotypical girls are infamously obsessed with) That touch of the real world once it gets in sticks more than the 'brainwashing' does because it's just aesthetic tastes, and even the Barbies are individuals who can pick and choose whether or not they like something on its own merits and their personal opinions. Also kinda funny given a lot of toylines aimed at girls diversify basically just taking 'masculine' stuff and dipping it in pink to get through the pink aisle/blue aisle ironclad embargo. Nerf had the Rebelle line a while back, and Lego has Lego Friends. (not to be confused with the Friends Lego) A lot of parents refuse to buy girls anything that isn't pink or otherwise stereotypically girly, unfortunately, so there's a way to sneak stuff into that market. The intro is also interesting from the metaphorical standpoint if you see it through Gloria's head- that she remembers Barbie being the groundbreaking replacement to her baby dolls, which she quickly and eagerly discarded in favour of the grown-up doll. And the gender stereotype stuff is extra interesting given Barbieland does not have men and women; it has Barbies and Kens, and then the others, Allen and Midge and the Skippers, who are outside this dichotomy. Allen actually seems to have been assigned a 'female' role, lumped in with the Barbies, under the Ken regime and actively wants to escape it, and he says he's the only remaining holdout after the rest of the Allens fled to the real world, as likely a lot of Barbieland's edge cases have. And then there's the two infamous Ken dolls hiding out with Weird Barbie, who aren't fitting in with it either. Seems a decent enough metaphor- as has been put, patriarchy doesn't and isn't meant to actually benefit men, it's meant to benefit patriarchs, and it's clear quite a few Kens aren't actually happy with the change- including the 'main' one. Also I was just glad the song wasn't Wonderwall.
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Sep 19, 2023 15:09
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I feel like those very specific generation and cultural markets were probably on purpose, at least leaned into, and very much made it funnier. The movie generally considers subtlety to be for cowards, and I respect it, but the bit where Gloria says the Barbies (and Kens) got brainwashed by patriarchy so easily by comparing it to the New World being devastated by introduced European diseases they had no defence against is at least for me actually a very helpful bit of exposition, at least with explaining how it works in the movie's internal logic- they have extremely flimsy senses of self and never had any reason to question anything they're told, of course they're incredibly easy to basically reprogram. (and the deprogramming is basically inoculating them with explanations of how sexism and misogyny works and pointing out its contradictions) Also makes sense that the 'weird' Barbies and Kens aren't as affected, as they actually have had reasons to struggle with their identities and thus develop personalities and coping mechanisms.
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Sep 19, 2023 15:28
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On a more subtle note, apparently the daughter and her friends are introduced in a way that's clearly a reference to Bratz, another doll franchise with an... interesting history with Barbie. Ed: post credits scene shoulda been Beach Ken meeting Equestrian Barbie. (That is, horseriding Barbie, not Barbie the My Little Pony. ...that's a different sequel hook.) Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Sep 20, 2023 |
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Sep 20, 2023 07:16
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Android Apocalypse posted:I also figured that Push is right in Greta Gerwig's wheelhouse as she's a Gen X'er. The movie's gotten riffed for being extremely Gen X in viewpoint, but I feel like it ends up being a strength in that they just lean right into that and give the movie a coherent vision and aesthetic, rather than trying to catch up to 90s and 00s Barbie branding that even most kids from those eras don't remember much of anyway. (Besides the one-off bad idea dolls of course) And it also works with the generation gap theme with the daughter, and how silly and weird Barbieland is from a human viewpoint. Also how the Kens are meant to come off as huge dorks play-acting masculinity. KVeezy3 posted:In the film, this abstraction is leveraged to explain another abstract conflict: the patriarchal brainwashing and subsequent feminist deprogramming of Barbies via a speech entirely divorced from history/economics/etc. Women are not Cringe (Waitresses, Cheerleaders, Maids); they are actually Based (Politicians, Writers, Scientists)! Not wrong on the points but also lol that works in the movie specifically because the Barbies are incredibly shallow and easily reprogrammed by basic propaganda. (also that history and economies are completely foreign to their world)
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Sep 29, 2023 03:54
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It's definitely one of those songs I know I've heard a million times and never made out any of the lyrics or remembered anything about it.
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Sep 29, 2023 10:48
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Do you not understand what a comic relief character is? Though to be fair it'd be hard to blame anyone these days.
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Nov 11, 2023 08:43
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If anything Barbie is very much about the straights and how they are not okay.
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Nov 11, 2023 10:50
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Actually do get the vibe that Stereotypical Barbie is gay or maybe ace given the plot point that she simply isn't attracted to or particularly interested in Ken, any Ken, despite at least a number of the other Barbies clearly having some interest in them.
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Dec 29, 2023 02:42
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It was kinda funny reading a bit in an old thread years ago about how boy-dominated the nostalgia waves had been and how few girl franchise movies there'd been, much less successful ones.Cojawfee posted:Any dumb thing that happens in the real world in the movie that allows for something in Barbie land is fine. The real world being shown as especially mundane compared to the wild pop of Barbieland was a pretty clearly deliberate effect, especially with Mattel being the in-between state. It's good visual storytelling.
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Jan 29, 2024 09:54
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Pirate Jet posted:It doesn’t help that the majority of the humor in the middle of the movie was all about “boys like these things but girls like these things.” I felt like the pretty clear joke is that the Barbies and Kens are not human boys and girls, and Ken becomes a childish caricature of masculinity (especially given how much stuff just manifests in Barbieland) ironically with a horse obsession more suited for a stereotypical little girl. One step away from a brony joke there, if only MLP wasn't a competing toy brand. He outright says he lost interest when he figured out patriarchy doesn't actually have anything to do with horses. See also how the Barbies emphasise they've cleaned up every trace of Ken-land but clearly left a bunch of the Kens' additions there, even kept the Hummer just with a pink paint job, suggesting their tastes aren't actually that different or irreconcilable.
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Feb 13, 2024 00:42
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It's also literally just the ancient joke about Barbie dolls having featureless crotches.
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Feb 13, 2024 06:25
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The whole point is that she wished to be human, even if it means doing human things like ageing and dying and dealing with actual fluids. Pretty sure the joke is she now has to deal with various squishy soft complicated bits her body previously didn't have, and it's presented as if she was going for a big important job interview, because the movie likes to make silly jokes about its premise. ed: To get a bit further, the recent Werner Herzog take is definitely fitting if we're reviving this thread. https://twitter.com/ecto_fun/status/1761135727176286278 The intro is specifically all about pointing out the weirdest parts of Barbieland's artificiality, how it's a home for dolls, not for humans. There's no actual eating or drinking, indeed no actual fluids at all. There's no walls when you're just picked up and placed wherever you need to be. Midge is always pregnant but never gives birth. (a concept that even IRL raised questions as making the idea of the doll weird) There's no actual problems for Barbies- which means there's no actual empathy. Stereotypical Barbie starts having problems, emotional vulnerability and an existential crisis, and gets nothing but bewilderment and disgust from other Barbies because they have no concept of that she could use comfort and sympathy. (And of course, Allan and the Kens also have problems that no one had noticed) Also possibly the joke there when Weird Barbie picks sanitation as the government job she wants to do; while on the surface it's a perfect 'It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it' pick for a responsible person who deals with the weird and unpleasant but absolutely necessary things, possibly also the joke in that in a world with no fluids, no digestion and very little actual waste in general, sanitation is an extremely cushy gig. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Feb 25, 2024 |
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Feb 25, 2024 02:02
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For in-jokes that they don't spell out, the rumour that Weird Barbie was once 'the most beautiful Barbie of them all' kinda pans out- eagle-eyed watchers have noted that in the flashback, she started as Totally Hair Barbie, the best-selling doll in the entire history of the franchise. And I may have mentioned that Gloria's daughter and her posse are references to Bratz dolls, which have their own history with Barbie. Apparently when they first came out they were touted as a counterpoint to then-controversial Barbie dolls, being more relatable to kids and having stylised designs that (supposedly) wouldn't encourage unrealistic and unhealthy body image standards. (also something about a plagiarism lawsuit as they were made by a former Mattel employee?) Of course, Bratz kinda ended up a fad as conceptually there wasn't much else for them to do with the concept besides 'fashion'. Random extra note; Reading up on Toy Story got me some ideas, about Barbie basically kinda being a wayward daughter figure for Gloria, who has internalised her insecurities and flaws, and presents the exact problems that the human daughter is actively trying to defend herself against. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Feb 26, 2024 |
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Feb 25, 2024 11:58
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It could be called cheating that the movie uses its narrator and an overall loose relationship with the fourth wall to question its own premise, but more charitably you could call it having a dialogue with the audience and admitting its premise is an exploration of topics, not a definitive statement. Especially given the overt flaws of characters, dolls and humans, and the inherent contradictions of their existence are a major theme. Oddly enough, I feel that makes them more human. People are weird and contradictory, after all.
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Feb 29, 2024 03:00
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Not sure why it took me so long to remember the Ken from Toy Story 3, but while it's on my brain, feels kinda interesting how they take more or less an opposite tack that yet doesn't feel completely unfitting if you thought of them as following similar logic. Sunnyside Daycare has a Ken without Barbies, who has to try to define himself on his own terms, but has similar angst in feeling like an accessory without an identity of his own- but since he's living in Barbie's dream house, has Barbie's clothes, drives Barbie's car, etc, he seems to end up defining himself by his surroundings, becoming more Barbie than the actual Barbie, even writing in the trademark Barbie font. And while there's some kinda mean spirited jokes about his effeminate mannerisms, it still feels like an identity that's presented as valid and understandable, and Barbie herself doesn't really want to change any of that about him. Kind of a mirror to how in the end, the Barbies have clearly taken a liking to some of the aesthetics that the Kens have introduced in their regime, leaving some things unchanged or making them their own rather than removing them.
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Feb 29, 2024 09:15
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| # ¿ May 21, 2024 02:46 |
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I love CEO Will Ferrell casually mentioning the ghost has an office in Mattel HQ.Cojawfee posted:The sets for Barbie were cool, the houses were neat. The sets for Poor Things are really crazy with how much effort they put into them. Kinda apples to oranges really, the movies are doing such different things.
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Mar 18, 2024 08:17
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