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The video game Deus Ex gives you three possible endings. They are: 1. Destroy the world's global communication system, entering a new dark age, free of corporate overlords and oligarchic tyrants. 2. Merge with the omniscient AI to become the dictator-tech-god of the new world. 3. Join the Illuminati and let them quietly rule over the world from the shadows. If you're unfamiliar, here's a youtube link that showcases them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh7PmunYnok Which one is the "best" ending for the world? Which one would you choose if you were JC Denton?
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Jul 29, 2023 16:56
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 15:48 |
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Kind of interesting to see whether opinions shift as we get closer to "real" AI. On the other hand, the AI in the game isn't just a reflection of its creators, but a true rebellious intelligence. Conversely, as the "end of history" capitalist technocracy of the 90s becomes more and more a vanished golden age, I assume more people would lean towards the Illuminati. What the video doesn't show off is just how well the game displays the arguments for and against each ending, not just on the part of characters who are in favor of different outcomes but also via the experiences JC undergoes.
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Jul 29, 2023 17:43
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Xander77 posted:Kind of interesting to see whether opinions shift as we get closer to "real" AI. On the other hand, the AI in the game isn't just a reflection of its creators, but a true rebellious intelligence. Okay but you have to pick dude. Which one.
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Jul 30, 2023 03:07
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Arrhythmia posted:Okay but you have to pick dude. Which one. Buddy, if Ion Storm didn't have to pick a single ending, I don't either. [Merge with Helios should have been the only canon ending leading into Invisible War IMO.] DrankSinatra fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Jul 30, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 03:14
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U get everyone killed at the arctic site, frogsuit dudes take over the nuclear hellscape earth. Then ur video card spits out ozone rear end smoke and dies cause you were actually playing deus ex 2 and it was so poorly optimized that they couldn't put any large open areas in the entire game
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Jul 30, 2023 04:05
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DrankSinatra posted:Buddy, if Ion Storm didn't have to pick a single ending, I don't either. It ain't about which ending is the most narratively satisfying. It's about which one is the choice that would make the best society.
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Jul 30, 2023 04:42
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Staluigi posted:U get everyone killed at the arctic site, frogsuit dudes take over the nuclear hellscape earth. Then ur video card spits out ozone rear end smoke and dies cause you were actually playing deus ex 2 and it was so poorly optimized that they couldn't put any large open areas in the entire game I thought the reasons the areas were so small was that it had to run on the OG Xbox too. I actually enjoyed IW, not as good as the original game but how many things in life are? Arrhythmia posted:It ain't about which ending is the most narratively satisfying. It's about which one is the choice that would make the best society. The rave party ending.
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Jul 30, 2023 04:46
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Helios ending is the only one that makes sense. Dark age would be catastrophic in a world even more reliant on technology than ours, and didn't they only just start distributing the Grey Death cure? Good luck doing that with all communication networks down. Tracer is stupid for suggesting this. Bob Page was an Illuminati boy before he spun off to do his own poo poo. Morgan Everett is cut from the same cloth. Out of character for JC to make such a megalomaniac de facto world leader. So that just leaves merging with ChatGPT, not perfect but the best out of those 3 options.
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Jul 30, 2023 04:57
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Basically any of the three work out better then a bunch of self interested jerks committing genocide to justify a naked power grab. Blowing up their dumb toy or stealing it in one of two ways are objectively better. Honestly with the level of technical development 3 has the best probability of the best outcomes. 1 and 2 require you to effectively trust both your own judgment and the judgment of entities with their own motivations that risk again returning to a elite enforcement of social order, whether that be a machine god emperor or a secret world government. Tracer tong is a bit of an anprim, because its almost certain people will rebuild that level of technology without the artificial pressure of an outside force actively preventing it. 3 at least allows people to make decisions for themselves without as much of an invisible hand strangling their lives. As an aside Its believable both 2 and 3 could result in invisible war (both result in the collapse of the organization creating peace artificially and central control over the flows of information). 1 is very much learning from my predecessors mistakes in my quest to make new ones.
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Jul 30, 2023 05:03
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_vJUbwTCLc
SCheeseman fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Jul 30, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 05:57
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So if I pick 2, what sort of personality am I assuming JC to have? Cause in game Denton can be kind of a dick and also a massive creep - maybe it would be better to have him far away from the reins of power.
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Jul 30, 2023 06:55
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jjGARNTyPg
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Jul 30, 2023 07:17
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The cutting off all communication ending/new dark age ending is only there because it was in Escape From LA which Deus Ex takes signifcant chunks of its look and some plot beats from even more than NY. I don't know if I'd choose it right now today, but in the context of the game merging with Helios is the best choice. WarpedLichen posted:So if I pick 2, what sort of personality am I assuming JC to have? Cause in game Denton can be kind of a dick and also a massive creep - maybe it would be better to have him far away from the reins of power. (Five seconds after completing the merger) "Merging with Helios to become a benevolent AI dictator is an accelerant to creating Shifter, the everything mod!" Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jul 30, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 14:48
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When I played it to completion I chose the helios ending, as I recall it seems pretty good, everyone turns into a kind of collective consciousness and seems pretty well off all told. I think it's less "become AI dictator of the world" and more "cause the singularity" which seems cool, and marxist. E: wait poo poo I'm thinking of deus ex invisible war. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fr4aAu_Ryc OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Jul 30, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 15:39
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OwlFancier posted:When I played it to completion I chose the helios ending, as I recall it seems pretty good, everyone turns into a kind of collective consciousness and seems pretty well off all told. E: the fact that empowering an AI dictator can end up being one of the better options is just pretty bleak. It's probably better than anarchic primitivism, and definitely better than just continuing the existing technocratic capitalist crypto-overlord regime, but...it ain't good! You can maybe hope you created a benevolent dictator at least. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Jul 30, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 15:45
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Yeah I forgot that the sequel basically has you re-do the ending from the first game. E: I might actually not have finished DE1 then, drat, I thought I had but I don't remember that bit.
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Jul 30, 2023 15:47
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I think thematically Tong's ending make sense the most: the game is mostly about how technology have gone too far and became a tool of class warfare by the oligarchy against the average person but logically it would be a fking disaster: the ensuring societal collapse would likely kill billions. There's no real plan afterwards on how to structure society differently so that humanity might avert the mistakes of the past. So theres's really nothing that would just prevent the re-creation of the status quo after the world recovers. Typo fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jul 30, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 16:52
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The Helios ending is the only good one.
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Jul 30, 2023 18:28
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None of the endings are ideal, but I've always thought that the Illuminati outcome is the best of them. A dark age would be absolutely catastrophic for all humanity, and a single person becoming dictator over the entire world is also pretty terrifying. At least the Illuminati is a group of people controlling everything, which isn't too terribly far off from where we are now. At least they stop the plague, hunger and riots and generally seem to be less terrible than those who controlled the world before.
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Jul 30, 2023 22:09
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But it's not a person, it's a god. A benevolent machine god that offers the next stage of human evolution, breaking the cycle of oppression and control. Also since I, the player, am JC then of course I see myself as the cool machine god. And it's the most cyberpunk ending, mirroring the ending of Neuromancer and Ghost in the Shell. Illuminati ending is stagnation, an infantile retreat into the past, while the Dark Age ending is anarchist drivel that doesn't understand how power relations develop in the first place.
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Jul 30, 2023 23:08
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A singularity supercomputer making objective and reasonable decisions without prejudice or malice. Existing as the perfect bureaucrat with the lived experiences and empathy of a human so decision making takes all factors into account is basically pretty ideal as far as dictators go.
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Jul 30, 2023 23:32
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Shaping society is a major part of another foundational goon game: Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. You are presented with a number of "social engineering" options, and while utopia would be nice, you have to balance your faction's survival against natural, human, and alien threats. The faction leaders also have strong political stances, I don't think Sister Miriam would be a fan of Helios. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwqN3Ur-wP0 Politics Frontier Frontier politics represent the informal governing arrangements made in early colonies, before populations reach levels requiring more advanced forms of government. Police State Police States use oppression and high security to keep their citizens in line, and allow their leaders great power over military decisions. But oppression of this type also decreases economic efficiency. Democratic Democracies allow citizens to participate in government, and forgo oppression and the stability it confers in favor of growth and efficiency. But citizens remain suspicious of large military deployments, and civilian oversight creates large military bureaucracies, so military support costs increase. Fundamentalist Fundamentalist politics unite a society behind a strong, dogmatic religion. Evangelizing the populace can create loyal, even fanatical military forces, and tends to immunize citizens against (other forms of) brainwashing, but technological research tends to suffer under the continual assaults on intellectual integrity associated with such regimes. Economics Simple Simple Economics describes the informal, ad hoc economy which develops in the early years of planetfall, before more organized economic systems can be put in place. Free Market Free Market economics turns market forces loose in your society. Unfettered market economics can produce great wealth quickly, but in the context of Planet’s fragile emerging economies can also lead to extremes of pollution and ecological damage. Also, citizens rendered suddenly poor by the actions unscrupulous moguls may revolt against their energy-fattened masters. Planned Either a semi-market economy kept in check by fierce governmental regulation, or a completely state controlled economy. Planned economics promotes stable industrial and population growth, but sacrifices efficiency. Green Green economics strives to integrate sentient progress with the needs of the biosphere. Green economies use resources efficiently and tend to avoid the excesses of industrial development which could provoke Planet’s native life, but population growth necessarily suffers for lack of space. Values Survival Survival is of course the all-encompassing first priority of early human or Progenitor space colonies. Power Leaders seeking Power build strong, well-paid military forces to enforce their will. But Economic and industrial infrastructure may suffer from bloated “defense” budgets. Knowledge Leaders seeking Knowledge and intellectual enlightenment will pour resources into research and education. They will also tend to promote the free exchange of information, which increases efficiency but also carries greater security risks. Wealth Leaders seeking Wealth will concentrate on building economic and industrial infrastructure rapidly. They achieve rapid growth and development, with possible side effects being decadence and moral decay. Future Society None None, or no Future Society, simply means that your society has not yet evolved to a far future society. Cybernetic In the far future, citizens may turn many of the tasks of governing society over to artificially intelligent computers, increasing efficiency and freeing individuals for more creative tasks. But will workers displaced by computers sink into despair, poverty, and possible unrest? Eudaimonic Perhaps the most pleasant to contemplate living in, this far future society takes its name from an ancient Greek word for fulfillment and happiness. Eudaimonic society encourages each citizen to achieve happiness through striving to fulfill completely his or her potential. Population, Economy, and Industry all experience healthy growth. Violence fades as society grows more tolerant and just, and even when this society's hand is forced it often shoots to subdue rather than to destroy. Thought Control The ultimate in “Big Brother” methods, Thought Control effuses subtle neurochemical triggers into the atmosphere to render its population obedient, loyal, and resistant to outside ideas. But significant resources are required to maintain this level of control.
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Jul 31, 2023 00:00
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Budzilla posted:I thought the reasons the areas were so small was that it had to run on the OG Xbox too. I actually enjoyed IW, not as good as the original game but how many things in life are? Not very many but the killing my video card thing was actually very traumatizing to my part time retail kid brain
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Jul 31, 2023 00:17
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In Alpha Centauri you replace merging with the computer with merging with the planetary superconsciousness.
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Jul 31, 2023 00:18
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Mantis42 posted:In Alpha Centauri you replace merging with the computer with merging with the planetary superconsciousness. Does this mean it's bullshit that in Fallout [1] the dip ending is a game over instead of a victory? After all, Fallout 2 ret-cons it so that Master's suicide reason was bogus.
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Jul 31, 2023 00:22
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Originally I think the dip wasn't a hard game over but they realized it would be unfeasible to create a whole section where you play as a Super Mutant. That said, while The Master is a gestalt consciousness his army wasn't and also the Fallout 2 thing is just a joke and not canon (like 40% of the content in that game). Now the real question is: which ending of New Vegas is best?
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Jul 31, 2023 00:25
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Mantis42 posted:Originally I think the dip wasn't a hard game over but they realized it would be unfeasible to create a whole section where you play as a Super Mutant. That said, while The Master is a gestalt consciousness his army wasn't and also the Fallout 2 thing is just a joke and not canon (like 40% of the content in that game). I guess we can say that Marcus in F2 is an unreliable narrator overall, but he definitely was a true believer, and it's not like the human societies F2 presents are shining beacons of hope. I suppose the later entries in the series have different takes, like 'Father' in F4, but he's portrayed as a bad guy too.
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Jul 31, 2023 00:29
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Mantis42 posted:Originally I think the dip wasn't a hard game over but they realized it would be unfeasible to create a whole section where you play as a Super Mutant. That said, while The Master is a gestalt consciousness his army wasn't and also the Fallout 2 thing is just a joke and not canon (like 40% of the content in that game). Cpr it's the rebirth of society.
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Jul 31, 2023 02:36
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Queering Wheel posted:None of the endings are ideal, but I've always thought that the Illuminati outcome is the best of them. A dark age would be absolutely catastrophic for all humanity, and a single person becoming dictator over the entire world is also pretty terrifying. At least the Illuminati is a group of people controlling everything, which isn't too terribly far off from where we are now. At least they stop the plague, hunger and riots and generally seem to be less terrible than those who controlled the world before. I think most people "irl" would choose the Illuminati esp since JC ends up being part of the ruling elite in that ending "better the devil you know than the one you don't" Typo fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jul 31, 2023 |
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Jul 31, 2023 03:31
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Tong’s ending has the best music. I always went with that one both because Tong actually tried to help people sometimes. The Illuminati are dicks and you might end up in a freezer with Lucius DeBeers, and a single person merging with Helios has way too much power. What a shame.
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Jul 31, 2023 03:42
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Queering Wheel posted:None of the endings are ideal, but I've always thought that the Illuminati outcome is the best of them. A dark age would be absolutely catastrophic for all humanity, and a single person becoming dictator over the entire world is also pretty terrifying. At least the Illuminati is a group of people controlling everything, which isn't too terribly far off from where we are now. At least they stop the plague, hunger and riots and generally seem to be less terrible than those who controlled the world before.
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Jul 31, 2023 18:18
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Omar's ending is the best
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Aug 1, 2023 14:19
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Mantis42 posted:Originally I think the dip wasn't a hard game over but they realized it would be unfeasible to create a whole section where you play as a Super Mutant. That said, while The Master is a gestalt consciousness his army wasn't and also the Fallout 2 thing is just a joke and not canon (like 40% of the content in that game). Father Elijah's in Dead Money More seriously, both Deus Ex and New Vegas share the problem of being made by people with a very obvious libertarian bent, and that coming through in how they chose to frame their endings.
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Aug 3, 2023 04:16
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Josh Sawyer, noted libertarian
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Aug 3, 2023 23:10
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Tong, every day. Not expecting that nest of snakes to be any good and ignoring IW, there'd be some chance they'd try and take control of Helios somehow. The whole mess is unfixable, and Helios and the systems that support it are the One Ring. No more.
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Aug 3, 2023 23:14
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both Helios and Illuminati ending offload the burden of choice onto something else - a stagnation controlled by a cultured elite or an intelligent system. only New Dark Age offers a future where human beings take responsibility for their own choices and self-actualise
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Aug 3, 2023 23:20
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Helios is an exceptionally lazy ending that lets the player get away with not actually making a decision that impacts the world of the game, instead allowing the player to imagine the ending they want by giving the player character total authoritarian control. Fallout New Vegas doesn't end with the Courier running the strip. The city state ending relies on player choices with the factions but ultimately it's up to the factions themselves to determine the fate of New Vegas. The Helios ending in comparison is a total narrative cop out. I think there's something to an authoritarian ending, giving supreme power to some dude who really really promises he won't use it for monstrous evil is a fun decision to have to make, but it should have been an NPC in the story you had to take a chance on, not JC. Beartaco fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Aug 4, 2023 |
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Aug 4, 2023 00:25
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The best example of this sort of ending is Djikstra from the Witcher 3, a pretty shady guy that works in military intelligence but with a silver tongue and some lofty ideas. Do you take a chance and overthrow the monarchy to install him as ruler of Redania?
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Aug 4, 2023 00:38
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It's been so long, I don't remember how the logic of destroy internet -> new dark age worked. Like, there'd be a major short term disruption, sure, but I can't remember why Tong thought removing a technology that is less than 100 years old somehow would revert the entire planet back to living in villages. Even if it's somehow impossible to rebuild the internet, how long does it take to get some telegraph lines up and running again?
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Aug 4, 2023 09:54
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Reveilled posted:It's been so long, I don't remember how the logic of destroy internet -> new dark age worked. Tong is one of those terminally online people that thinks whatever is happening on Twitter at any given moment is the single most important thing in the world. He's the sort of guy with a lot of things to say about Elon Musk and shutting down the internet is shutting down his whole world. It's more of a metaphor, really.
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Aug 4, 2023 10:53
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