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dogstile posted:All i'm saying is that if you want to criticize games you should probably actually play them so even the most cursory glance by someone who does, doesn't disprove a shitton of your points. That's not the issue with Sarkeesian's criticisms. She's generally on point in the macro, but screws up when she hits the micro. The example that comes to my mind is in her "Damsels in Distress" video, where she correctly points out that the common "rescue the girl" plot reduces a female character to the level of a possession. I've heard the same point of media criticism called the "Sexy Lamp" test, where you check to see if a character's presence in the plot could be entirely replaced by one of those novelty lamps that looks like a woman's leg. Sarkseesian rightly points out that there are a lot of plots in video games where a male player character is out to rescue a woman, and that woman is often given very little agency or self-determination. It was particularly apt to make that point in the early 2010s, because the growth in indie productions had led to a lot of games (i.e. Super Meat Boy) that were deliberate homages to the 8-bit era, including the "rescue the princess" plot. Where she proceeds to screw up her own argument is when she starts complaining about it in specific modern games. She's got a point with a few games like Dante's Inferno, but then she brings up Gail Simone's "women in refrigerators" and starts to drift away from her own stated central point. Soon she's complaining about games where women are treated like a reward, or are disposable plot tokens to enrage a male character, or where they're essentially sexy furniture, and it disrupts her entirely correct central thesis. None of these are good, but they also aren't what we were talking about.
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Aug 18, 2023 02:43
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i mean hot take, alot of the people related to game gate loving sucked poo poo. its just the good guys were way less awful then the loving nazis. quinn strikes me as a lovely person and wu strikes me as someone who jumped on the horror show for clout. Something that I was surprised didn't make waves is that it turned out Zoe Quinn did a collab with Lowtax...AFTER he got ousted from Something Awful. nine-gear crow posted:Wow, and that's even AFTER he was publicly outed as a serial domestic abuser too. DoctorWhat posted:Quinn posted on Facebook back during the first wave of lowtax abuse allegations calling his wife a liar. Jamie Faith posted:Yeah I noticed this too. I was thinking maybe Lowtax is lying or "joking" or whatever about it really being her, but on the other hand, Lady Ambien did say Zoe supported Lowtax thru the controversy sadly. Like  Dapper_Swindler posted:personally i think some horror show like gamergate was growing for a long loving time because games jorunalism was either really really meh/bad culture critics attemps or bad corpo ads. All Hail The King Of Good Games Journalism (published February 2nd, 2013) Dapper_Swindler posted:I think my issue with their(plural) is the "critque what you love" or some poo poo, but like every time i watched a video or read their threads, i never got the vibe that they liked the poo poo. its like if i wrote about like cars or some poo poo and pretended i loved them. MarquiseMindfang posted:To be fair I get that vibe from a hell of a lot of gaming journalism these days. The problem I have with a lot of critics in that sphere (or spheres, because it's not really one category), is that they infantilize their audience, talk down to them, and treat them like backwards idiots. McIntosh's rhetoric in particular emphasizes this notion that people need to have strict diet with the media they consume; that it explicitly promotes good, conducive ideas. If not, it might corrupt people. With game journalism, my take is that it may not be unethical, but it sure as hell isn't good. Rather than try and mend the gap that was made, I think journalists have only further alienated people with rage bait, hate click articles, and just generally not being on the same page as their audience.
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Aug 18, 2023 03:12
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Wanderer posted:That's not the issue with Sarkeesian's criticisms. She's generally on point in the macro, but screws up when she hits the micro. I don't even agree with her on the macro, to some extent, because of the multi-layered nature of her premises. "There are games where you rescue a woman, and she's only visible for like thirty seconds at the end of the game." - True! But implied with that: "This means that these games are sexist against women." - Well, not necessarily? NES games weren't exactly awash in character development for anyone. "These games represent the desire of gamers/the games industry." - All the games that don't do that would like a word, and they are many and successful. "These games shouldn't be made." - Let people make/buy what they want. If someone wants to make GTA, and someone wants to pay for it to murderhobo, more power to 'em. There's room for games for everyone.
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Aug 18, 2023 03:46
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on the one hand, i guess it's nice that the discourse seems to have shifted to what some people were pointing out years and years ago. on the other, well, it would've been nice years and years ago if people hadn't been so hidebound to thinking that any criticism of sarkeesian was rooted in chud gamergate stuff.
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Aug 18, 2023 04:32
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Max Wilco posted:When the comic with the Tracer girlfriend reveal dropped, McIntosh tweeted about how problematic is was. I don't remember word-for-word what he said, and I really don't want to go digging for it, but it was something along the lines , 'we need lesbian couples that make straight men uncomfortable.
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Aug 18, 2023 06:49
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but yeah 'woke' progressive dudes love lecturing lesbian women about what lesbian rep they should like, and getting mad when the women disagree with them always remember some dude going on a rant about what video game characters lesbians 'do' and 'dont' like and when ladies said they had crushes on ivy from soul calibur when they were teenagers he went on a giant blocking spree
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Aug 18, 2023 06:54
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Horizon Burning posted:on the one hand, i guess it's nice that the discourse seems to have shifted to what some people were pointing out years and years ago. on the other, well, it would've been nice years and years ago if people hadn't been so hidebound to thinking that any criticism of sarkeesian was rooted in chud gamergate stuff. understandable. however... oswald ownenstein posted:Anita was a massive oval office who got her start in MLMs and then turned to SJW grifting now this guy, he's the genuine article Mr Interweb fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Aug 18, 2023 |
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Aug 18, 2023 07:29
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The same person is the one who's been making absolutely awful Street Fighter 6 posts.
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Aug 18, 2023 07:56
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah. he has a tweet about it. What a crock of poo poo, hundreds of thousands dying to various bush wars and coups decade after decade (and often for his benefit) but two tower blocks of white people is just step too far and a noble origin story for this messenger of peace This goes for all traumatised Americans who weren't literally in the city tbh
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Aug 18, 2023 08:08
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i too arbitrate the trauma of others
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Aug 18, 2023 08:13
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my superhero origin story for why im mad about doom 2016
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Aug 18, 2023 08:13
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Endorph posted:always remember some dude going on a rant about what video game characters lesbians 'do' and 'dont' like and when ladies said they had crushes on ivy from soul calibur when they were teenagers he went on a giant blocking spree I remember from my time working at a comic store that I saw a ton of Lady Death tattoos - the most Bad Girl of the Bad Girl Comics craze - and they were to a one on women. mycot posted:The same person is the one who's been making absolutely awful Street Fighter 6 posts. Mad they gave Cammy pants but for the opposite reason most are?
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Aug 18, 2023 10:42
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Strategic Tea posted:What a crock of poo poo, hundreds of thousands dying to various bush wars and coups decade after decade (and often for his benefit) but two tower blocks of white people is just step too far and a noble origin story for this messenger of peace the bush wars happened because of 9/11 tho
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Aug 18, 2023 11:20
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There were older bush wars. Bush Sr.
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Aug 18, 2023 11:22
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i think they mean lowercase bush wars and not capital c Bush wars. like in africa.
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Aug 18, 2023 11:28
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yeh that's the joke
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Aug 18, 2023 11:32
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Max Wilco posted:Something that I was surprised didn't make waves is that it turned out Zoe Quinn did a collab with Lowtax...AFTER he got ousted from Something Awful. Yeah, I genuinely dislike the weird finger wag poo poo that I see from various left leaning critics and such. It’s not as much now. Mostly since trump but like gently caress off. I don’t even disagree that much but don’t treat me like a kid. I can have a variety of interests that arnt related. Also geralt isn’t a toxic male you stupid gently caress. Strategic Tea posted:What a crock of poo poo, hundreds of thousands dying to various bush wars and coups decade after decade (and often for his benefit) but two tower blocks of white people is just step too far and a noble origin story for this messenger of peace Who knows. I know he is pretty hard left like he used to post his ideals of how media would be created. But i have to find it. Basically people committees but with some progressive stack poo poo. Idk. Another thing I remember was him streaming ff15 and getting pissy because mane dude was a crown prince. Then he protested loudly about the dumb car washing poo poo. I don’t even like that game and he isn’t wrong. But I always get a “guy who proteth too much”
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Aug 18, 2023 11:36
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Max Wilco posted:
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Aug 18, 2023 11:46
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Question how do you exactly make straight men “uncomfortable” with lesbians couples. Because there are a lot of poo poo that says a lot about him. 1. Is it physical body stuff? Because a lot of dudes are into everything and anything. I mean various men are into romantic poo poo or porn that isn’t strictly for men. Like one man’s “gross” is another dozen men’s “gently caress yeah” like i think his point is don’t make them conveniently physically attractive but like you will always have an audience who finds it hot or whatever. Like gently caress, furries and bronies and scalelies and etc exist. So I don’t think body poo poo stops it.
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Aug 18, 2023 12:29
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Endorph posted:and also like, the fact is people just like seeing attractive people in fiction lol. like yeah more diverse body types is good but even when someones drawing someone heavier or with a non-standard bodyshape theyre usually still drawing them with like, a nice face, clean skin, etc. people like looking at good looking people. i dont think thats really a bad or unexpected thing especially in the context of an aaa multiplayer game Also I honestly give yoko taro credit where when asked why the androids look the way they do. He said he liked big asses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHsqOBs2DhI but also everyone has different standards of whats beutiful too so like idk. is his solution just "make every lesbian 800 lbs and covered in hives" in media? Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Aug 18, 2023 |
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Aug 18, 2023 12:49
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Wanderer posted:That's not the issue with Sarkeesian's criticisms. She's generally on point in the macro, but screws up when she hits the micro. Even when trying to hit the macro, she misses. You are allowed to have a damsel in distress trope, not every single character in a game/film is going to be a fleshed out character that you can go explore the entire life of. It's an unreasonable expectation. poo poo, even one of the bigger offenders (Dom's wife in Gears) explores it more and more later on in other games because they have additional time, but they're not gonna go that deep into it for one game that is primarily about chainsawing dudes in half.
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Aug 18, 2023 14:15
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Also I honestly give yoko taro credit where when asked why the androids look the way they do. He said he liked big asses. Honestly i'll never not give them poo poo for this but whatever they're auteurs, they do what they want and i will still laugh at one-handed character designs.
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Aug 18, 2023 14:19
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Endorph posted:my superhero origin story for why im mad about doom 2016 As opposed to Doom 2001, who cried when they fell.
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Aug 18, 2023 14:32
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Panzeh posted:Honestly i'll never not give them poo poo for this but whatever they're auteurs, they do what they want and i will still laugh at one-handed character designs. i mean i am mostly fine with weird poo poo. i like kojima and while i think he can write great characters, he does have his issues. yoko is just one of those weird dudes who makes weird poo poo thats profoudnly and weirdly deep and depressing but his characters have giant loving asses and are voiced by the creator of brawl taunts on newgrounds and its some how loving amazing and beautiful. I feel like alot of folks like anita and john and think HIGH ART video games have to just be pretentious games that are just people talking about things and some off the wall absurdism but with a moral that beats you over the head until you die. these are the people that got mad because thanos was a malthusian and wanted the heros to explain to the him and the audiance why its wrong, even though its super loving clear, that its just some lie he tells himself.
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Aug 18, 2023 14:37
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i mean i am mostly fine with weird poo poo. i like kojima and while i think he can write great characters, he does have his issues. yoko is just one of those weird dudes who makes weird poo poo thats profoudnly and weirdly deep and depressing but his characters have giant loving asses and are voiced by the creator of brawl taunts on newgrounds and its some how loving amazing and beautiful. I feel like alot of folks like anita and john and think HIGH ART video games have to just be pretentious games that are just people talking about things and some off the wall absurdism but with a moral that beats you over the head until you die. these are the people that got mad because thanos was a malthusian and wanted the heros to explain to the him and the audiance why its wrong, even though its super loving clear, that its just some lie he tells himself. I think the thing that amuses me most about the videogames as art discussion is that some people are absolutely unwilling to admit that sometimes, even shitposts can be high art. Some of the most profound indie game experiences I've seen were also absolute hellfuck nonsense at the same time. I think a lot of this comes down to the idea that for certain proponents of the games as art stuff, what is really going on is that they are on some level embarrassed about liking videogames, and want to try and elevate them to the sort of snooty champagne-sipping art gallery "fnarr fnarr yes quite" level of discourse so that they can stop feeling ashamed. In reality, there's nothing more cringe than being ashamed of being cringe, and if you just own your poo poo you'll win a lot more respect from people than desperately coping at lightspeed about how no really it's a super valid serious artform you guys, please consider this boring-rear end walking simulator that would lose absolutely nothing by being a youtube video instead of a game experience.
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Aug 18, 2023 16:23
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MarquiseMindfang posted:I think the thing that amuses me most about the videogames as art discussion is that some people are absolutely unwilling to admit that sometimes, even shitposts can be high art. Some of the most profound indie game experiences I've seen were also absolute hellfuck nonsense at the same time. this. i am into tons of weird cringy poo poo of all kinds of mixed media. not everything has to be loving art house poo poo. i remember both of them poo poo all over fury road because it was to violent and poo poo. and its like no, art doesnt have to be queer coffee house simulator where they talk about proust and marxism. i like poo poo like helluva boss and yoko taro and loving disco elysium, they re all gross and violent and sexual and queer and but they are all beutifully depressing and hosed up and artistic. art makes you feel. thats why its art. these assholes are no better then weird pretentious lefty versions of Ernest Cline when it comes to video games. if your gonna critique poo poo you love, then actually like it first.
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Aug 18, 2023 16:37
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Yeah, I think that's really the thing. There's plenty of room to criticize video games, lord knows it's like the favorite pastime of gamers. If she had gone in against Metroid Other M for being a cringey sexist piece of poo poo, the Metroid fans of the world would've been right there with her. Instead she talked poo poo about Samus and said she was basically just a man, so that went over like a lead balloon. It is possible to be a game fan and acknowledge that many of them aren't perfect and some of them are downright dire, but the way she came at them made it pretty apparent that she was not coming from a fan's perspective. My first PC game as a kid? King's Quest 3, by the inestimable Roberta Williams. My second? King's Quest 4, where gasp, you play the princess saving the day. In 1988. And to the best of my knowledge, Roberta never gave any indication in interviews that piles of chud gamers wrote her bunches of rape and death threats for daring to be a woman in charge of a game company who made games with a girl protagonist. Everyone I knew loved the poo poo out of her and her games, I was a huge Sierra fanboy back then.
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Aug 19, 2023 04:42
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There was a brief movement where PC gamers tried to leverage Roberta Williams as proof that gaming was a pristine sexism-free utopia before the chud casual console gamers moved in. It ended when it turned out Roberta is hilariously problematic by 2020s standards and too inconvenient to be used as a public figurehead.
mycot fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Aug 19, 2023 |
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Aug 19, 2023 05:04
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I think it's more accurate to say that gamers looked better before they had the internet around to be shitposting everywhere. The arrival of the modern consoles around the same time is just a coincidence.
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Aug 19, 2023 05:17
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Valatar posted:I think it's more accurate to say that gamers looked better before they had the internet around to be shitposting everywhere. The arrival of the modern consoles around the same time is just a coincidence. I can agree with that...It's hard to tell what is my biases or not but I do feel like there's a noticeable increase in the severity of the toxicity when you enter the social media age, because that's when it started to become common to connect your real life identity to your online one and internet networking became very, very important professionally.
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Aug 19, 2023 05:27
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Valatar posted:Yeah, I think that's really the thing. There's plenty of room to criticize video games, lord knows it's like the favorite pastime of gamers. If she had gone in against Metroid Other M for being a cringey sexist piece of poo poo, the Metroid fans of the world would've been right there with her. Instead she talked poo poo about Samus and said she was basically just a man, so that went over like a lead balloon. It is possible to be a game fan and acknowledge that many of them aren't perfect and some of them are downright dire, but the way she came at them made it pretty apparent that she was not coming from a fan's perspective. Aside from Roberta Williams though, you also had Jane Jensen (who made Gabriel Knight), Lorelai Shannon (who made Phantasmagoria 2), Muriel Tramis (who was actually part of Coktel Vision, but made games like Gobliiins and Lost in Time) and Christy Marx (who made Conquests of the Longbow, as well as also having done a lot of writing for television). Outside of Sierra, you've got Brenda Romero, who worked on the Wizardry series and was the lead on Wizardry 8. There's Amy Hennig, who wrote Legacy of Kain series and Uncharted. There's Rebecca Heineman, who was one of the co-founders of Interplay and helped developed the Bard's Tale, as well as doing a ton of ports. There's Mari Shimazaki, who worked on the designs for Bayonetta. There's Rieko Kodama, who worked on Phantasy Star and produced Skies of Arcadia (though she passed away last year, unfortunately). There's Jehanne Rousseau, who's the CEO of Spiders, and was a lead on Sliverfall, Mars: War Logs, and The Technomancer. More recently there's Ikumi Nakamura, who worked on the Evil Within and who did the E3 presentation for Ghostwire: Tokyo, which a lot of people loved. You can certainly argue there's a disproportionate amount of women designers vs men designers, but there's a lot women who were vital in some pretty beloved games. Thing is, I'd have to think some of their work/creative choices would probably not pass Anita's standards.
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Aug 19, 2023 06:42
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Endorph posted:and also like, the fact is people just like seeing attractive people in fiction lol. like yeah more diverse body types is good but even when someones drawing someone heavier or with a non-standard bodyshape theyre usually still drawing them with like, a nice face, clean skin, etc. people like looking at good looking people. i dont think thats really a bad or unexpected thing especially in the context of an aaa multiplayer game I think this will actually improve as the technology gets better. Horizon Forbidden West and the Last of Us Part II for example showed that you can have characters without perfect, clean skin.
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Aug 19, 2023 12:38
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Alhazred posted:I think this will actually improve as the technology gets better. Horizon Forbidden West and the Last of Us Part II for example showed that you can have characters without perfect, clean skin.
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Aug 19, 2023 13:51
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Alhazred posted:I think this will actually improve as the technology gets better. Horizon Forbidden West and the Last of Us Part II for example showed that you can have characters without perfect, clean skin. Not perfect but they're still typically above average. Granted, I live in the UK and most people here seem to be double my weight, so that's not a hard standard to beat.
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Aug 19, 2023 17:04
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