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Tumblr hate is deserved because 99% of that site was dumbass children spouting dumb poo poo at anything they vaguely disagreed with, leading to them eating eachother constantly.
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Aug 5, 2023 01:32
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Mr Interweb posted:i made the very dumb decision to wade into a GG related tweet thread and lots of them are arguing that allegedly anita made up all the harassment and threats she claimed she received and the FBI proved she was lying? i'm 101% sure these fucks are lying, but anyone know the details? There are never actually any details, just stretched truths or outright lies that people will leapfrog to and from because everyone is anonymous and online so there's no locus for the manufacturing of hate. It's hatred of women first and then flimsy justifications afterwards. There's a recent example of this at Project Moon, the Korean developers of the mobile game Limbus Company. They released summer characters a couple weeks ago and the female one was in a form fitting wetsuit rather than a bikini, causing a bunch of Koreans dudes to get really mad that they were denied 2d titty art so they wanted to get the artist fired for being a feminist. Then they found out the artist was actually male so instead they started digging through every other artist that worked there and found a lady who had reposted a feminism 4-5 years ago but those posts were deleted and had to be wayback machined. At that point they went off their rockers and started essentially making up poo poo that she was guilty of (because being feminist counts as engaging in anti social activities in Korea and can get you fired) to the point where a bunch of dudes protested at their office (of 30 people) and she got fired. She didn't actually do anything during her time working on the game and even scrubbed her socials before joining but a bunch of Korean incels were so mad they couldn't see a bikini character they had to find a target to unload their anger and misogyny onto. Anita is not uniquely positioned to be focused on as the face of feminism, she was just the one they had on hand as she had entered the gamer space. This is what is happening worldwide as a male dominated space finds itself diversifying and the primary other is of course their opposite, women.
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Aug 5, 2023 01:48
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dogstile posted:Tumblr hate is deserved because 99% of that site was dumbass children spouting dumb poo poo at anything they vaguely disagreed with, leading to them eating eachother constantly.
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Aug 5, 2023 01:53
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also korea is pretty hard to compare to anyone else because: imagine if hillary clinton won and then was revealed to have ties to a literal actual cult and could also be blamed for a boat full of high school students dying, and what that would do to these conversations even ignoring everything else going on there
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Aug 5, 2023 01:57
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Korea is kind of like the Mirror Universe
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Aug 5, 2023 02:11
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Wanderer posted:That's one of the legitimate criticisms that can be laid at Sarkeesian's door: she wasn't as expert on the overall subject of video games as she could or should've been before she made a series of critical videos about it. Hindsight being 20-20, it would've made more sense to pitch the original series as something more like, "As a feminist, I'm not into video games, and here's why." For all that, Sarkeesian was rarely wrong, but her supporting arguments could get a little flimsy. There's definitely room for criticism when somebody decides to barrel into a space they know nothing about and make a career from it. If somebody wanted to become a literary critic but had never read a book they would be rightly mocked. I think Sarkeesian's lack of understanding of the language of video game design and game mechanics really undermined her ability to talk about them and contributed to her critiques being boring as gently caress (only talking about her early stuff, maybe she became more grounded in the medium over 15 years).
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Aug 5, 2023 02:57
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dogstile posted:Tumblr hate is deserved because 99% of that site was dumbass children spouting dumb poo poo at anything they vaguely disagreed with, leading to them eating eachother constantly. stay sober when you post old man
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Aug 5, 2023 03:02
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Feels Villeneuve posted:Donald Trump was elected because he ran against a bad candidate who ran a bad campaign and that it's historically difficult for a party to win three consecutive presidential elections. Gas. I wouldn’t call Clintons campaign bad, because she did win the popular vote in a landslide, it wasn’t even close, but that is also not how we choose our president, instead we use the electoral college, a method that is far more stupid and makes no sense. dogstile posted:Tumblr hate is deserved because 99% of that site was dumbass children spouting dumb poo poo at anything they vaguely disagreed with, leading to them eating eachother constantly. Eh, that is the internet in general. It happens on these very forums as well.
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Aug 5, 2023 03:05
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I said come in! posted:
The internet is the worst because it merges age groups into a single group unified by a website or interest, so you get these weird instances of an adult losing their poo poo at teenagers/kids for saying dumb teenager/kid poo poo. Which can also lead into radicalization of said teenagers/kids, which is what happened after the Fem Frequency outbursts leading into Gamergate and beyond. Vengarr posted:Korea is kind of like the Mirror Universe People think Project Moon games are these Lovecraftian horror stories, but actually they're about general life in Korea.
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Aug 5, 2023 03:52
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I said come in! posted:Eh, that is the internet in general. It happens on these very forums as well. Something Awful doesn't have the excuse of everyone involved being a child 
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Aug 5, 2023 03:54
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Wanderer posted:Yeah, looking back on it, it was a collision of multiple factors. Somebody was always going to end up as the lightning rod there, because the movement needed a hate object to rally around. If it hadn't been Sarkeesian and Quinn, it might've been somebody like Leigh Alexander, Alanah Pierce, or any of the handful of trans women in the gaming press. It was just going to be someone who was being a woman right out loud in public, and it wouldn't have mattered what she had or had not done. Yeah, that's how it starts. GamerGate's younger dumber cousin ComicsGate got started because a group of women who worked at Marvel in a non-creative capacity posted a picture on Twitter about getting a milkshake. Some smoothed brain small time comic YouTuber started complaining about it (read: basically complaining about "women in muh comics") got the ball rolling.
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Aug 5, 2023 04:32
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dogstile posted:Tumblr hate is deserved because 99% of that site was dumbass children spouting dumb poo poo at anything they vaguely disagreed with, leading to them eating eachother constantly. Literal children wading into civil rights topics? Call the police
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Aug 5, 2023 07:04
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Didn't she also have a big thing against violent video games that kind of laced through the feminism stuff? Like her idea of a feminism friendly game was harvest moon - when I assumed plenty of women would be happy to headshot nazi's, as long as they could do so as a female character that didn't get sexualized, and not get harassed online etc.
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Aug 5, 2023 08:05
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there was definitely a hint of 'women do not like conflict and violence' laced into her stuff yeah. in general western audiences (and devs) have a completely mismanaged view of what women actually like in games thats only very slowly gotten better. like animal crossing, harvest moon/rune factory, etc, that stuff is popular with women, but other examples of stuff with huge female audiences would be dynasty warriors, the tales series, horror games, etc.
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Aug 5, 2023 08:12
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my favorite 'women dont like what men think they like' fact is that in the 90s/early 2000s call of cthulhu was huge with japanese high school girls. like the tabletop game. that poo poo was beloved, by girls. they sold novels based on it that were just dramatizations of play sessions, with a bunch of illustrations of pretty anime boys being scared of cthulhu.
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Aug 5, 2023 08:13
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She had very shallow criticism, but I guess she was getting something done by being a person to say these very basic things regardless of how much absurd pushback she got. Kinda like one of those minesweeper flail vehicles. And of course, when you're wading through the worst of what the internet has to offer and getting an absurd amount of hate for fairly reasonable or bland things, that's not really a good environment for developing your criticism more. SlothfulCobra fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Aug 5, 2023 |
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Aug 5, 2023 15:49
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at the same time though like i said her stuff is getting taught in actual colleges as like, the peak of video game related feminism. a lot of dudes just watch two youtube videos made 15 years ago and just completely stop there, no need for further thought about feminism, theyve solved it. that isnt her fault but its basically its own form of sexism lol
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Aug 5, 2023 16:02
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I said come in! posted:I wouldn’t call Clintons campaign bad, because she did win the popular vote in a landslide, it wasn’t even close, but that is also not how we choose our president, instead we use the electoral college, a method that is far more stupid and makes no sense. Yeah, it's a shame her campaign was blindsided by the effect that the electoral college would have. It isn't like the rules are published beforehand, so who could have predicted that the election wouldn't be decided by popular vote and maybe it would be worth campaigning in the rust belt?
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Aug 7, 2023 09:31
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I said come in! posted:Eh, that is the internet in general. It happens on these very forums as well. Oh of course, but I haven't really seen "hey what does this mean" "not knowing this means you're a loving bigot" level tumblr on here. I used to see that poo poo all the time, it was kinda funny. Frakas posted:stay sober when you post old man gently caress no
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Aug 7, 2023 10:46
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I listened to some of her podcast stuff - but yeah, I can't really say anything more than what's already been said. On the whole surface level, with occasionally interesting viewpoints, far from the worst poo poo in the world, and the backlash she received was pants-on-heads stupid reactionary bullshit... Which probably went to show that surface level poo poo was NEEDED.
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Aug 7, 2023 11:27
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Wanderer posted:No, there are a few meaningful links you can draw. Steve Bannon started out as a World of Warcraft gold farmer, where he learned the ins and outs of online trolling, before going to Breitbart in 2012. Bannon's the guy who hired Milo Yiannopoulos at Breitbart, and Yiannopoulos and Adam Baldwin are the guys who effectively spun up and branded GamerGate. That, in turn, led to Trump's "meme army" in 2015/2016. glad you mentioned the bannon thing. i know it sounds silly that a bunch of angry vidya game enthusiasts tipped a u.s. presidential election, but remember, trump won by just 50k votes in 4 states. GG no doubt radicalized people to the Right at far higher magnitudes. Endorph posted:gamergate was a slight bellweather for that kind of thing but trump got elected because there were average people who were into him. it didnt get him elected anymore than online lib type stuff got biden elected. this can be proven by the fact that all that stuff still existed and was going as hard as ever but trump lost in 2020. eh...2020 was VERY different than 2016. GG and the major players it spawned were absolutely DOMINANT in online spaces in 2016. you might have had a handful of large forums like SA nd neogaf (even that place had a large population of GG'ers), and major media outlets were anti-GG, but the gamer base was overwhelmingly in favor of GG. there's a reason why hbomberguy, shaun, lindsay ellis and other left leaning youtubers got popular and it's because they were the original handful of left leaning youtubers that pushed back and tried to get some sense of balance back, and that all happened after 2016. remember, these were the days where "feminists/SJWs utterly OWNED" compilations were ubiquitous. every day had some new triggered ostensibly left figure (usually a woman) show up. guys like ethan klein and the Act Man, who were probably not as terrible as the average GG'er, still nonetheless made content out of it frequently. it's no mystery why the likes of milo, sargon of akkad, theQuartering, Geeks and Gamers and such blew the gently caress up around that time.
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Aug 8, 2023 19:34
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You say trump radicalized gamers but who was the candidate that told everyone to Pokémon Go to the polls? Checkmate
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Aug 8, 2023 19:40
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It's amazing how the mildest criticism attracted such insane vitriol
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Aug 8, 2023 20:03
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I think she did a good job introducing basic feminism to gamers, and I know her critiques made an impact on devs.
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Aug 8, 2023 21:02
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Mr Interweb posted:glad you mentioned the bannon thing. i know it sounds silly that a bunch of angry vidya game enthusiasts tipped a u.s. presidential election, but remember, trump won by just 50k votes in 4 states. GG no doubt radicalized people to the Right at far higher magnitudes. Yeah. I feel like 2016 was right on that transition point where the irony poisoned internet was serving as cover for genuinely cruel and hateful people and activities, but the sheer impact of it wasn't yet known. If anything, I almost wonder if that's why the "culture war" seems so much louder and harsher lately. There's actual pushback against it, instead of it just being dismissed as the web-based equivalent of boys being boys.
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Aug 9, 2023 05:45
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Fansy posted:I think she did a good job introducing basic feminism to gamers, and I know her critiques made an impact on devs. after seeing what some devs think feminism is, this is not high praise lol
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Aug 9, 2023 05:52
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The Bee posted:Yeah. I feel like 2016 was right on that transition point where the irony poisoned internet was serving as cover for genuinely cruel and hateful people and activities, but the sheer impact of it wasn't yet known. If anything, I almost wonder if that's why the "culture war" seems so much louder and harsher lately. There's actual pushback against it, instead of it just being dismissed as the web-based equivalent of boys being boys. there's more pushback against it but also the usual suspects like sargon, quartering, etc. are also creating controversies on literally a daily basis. this is basically something GG took out of Fox News and talk radio that they need to keep their audiences enraged and in state of paranoia constantly. also, i was browsing r/kotakuinaction the other day and came across a post about Baldur's Gate 3 and how apparently the gaming media has an anti-japan/pro-western game development bias? i mean, i've heard the anti-japan poo poo before when it comes to games being localized in a way the Gamers(tm) didn't like. but this is the first i'm hearing that the gaming press has a PRO-WESTERN bias. 
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Aug 10, 2023 18:23
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I thought the only people who had an anti-japan and pro-western bias are ubisoft game developers that got super offended when someone made that "what if elden ring was made by ubisoft" meme and then wrote a screed about how bad elden ring user experience is, lol
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Aug 10, 2023 19:30
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Wasn’t that a Horizon dev?
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Aug 10, 2023 19:38
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I guess it was both https://www.gamerbraves.com/horizon-and-ubisoft-game-developers-lock-twitter-accounts-after-posting-bitter-elden-ring-tweets/
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Aug 10, 2023 20:22
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Cutedge posted:I guess it was both https://www.gamerbraves.com/horizon-and-ubisoft-game-developers-lock-twitter-accounts-after-posting-bitter-elden-ring-tweets/ " thankfully some fans have been quick to express the truth- that actually, multiple good games can exist independently of each other." This basically, I loved both Horizon Forbidden West, and Elden Ring. Both games were among my favorite titles last year.
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Aug 10, 2023 20:33
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I think it’s mostly interesting because at this moment we’ve had a handful of devs come out and go “Actually better things aren’t possible, Baldur’s Gate 3 is basically witchcraft.” Which to be fair, they have actually good arguments for why this is the case, primary among them that BG3 really is just DOS3 with a different setting but still benefiting from the years of engine and pipeline refinement. Not to mention that BG3 got nearly six years in the oven and massive amounts of feedback, while most games of its budget and size get four years in a vacuum if they’re lucky. So really as much as I’m making fun of them, better things really aren’t possible until working standards in the industry change.  As for the actual topic of the thread everyone’s pretty much said everything I could care to. Though I think with things like Feminist Frequency or the Barbie movie or whatever, yeah sure maybe they’re very surface level feminism but we currently live in a world where most men are still raised to view women as objects so it’s clearly needed. They sure aren’t going to engage with deeper stuff.
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Aug 10, 2023 20:41
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Mr Interweb posted:also, i was browsing r/kotakuinaction the other day and came across a post about Baldur's Gate 3 and how apparently the gaming media has an anti-japan/pro-western game development bias? i mean, i've heard the anti-japan poo poo before when it comes to games being localized in a way the Gamers(tm) didn't like. but this is the first i'm hearing that the gaming press has a PRO-WESTERN bias. like im sure kotakuinaction are being morons but you only need to read 'japanese games, which are obviously bad about LGBT stuff' and running best visual novels lists that are just a bunch of indie western ones and phoenix wright, to get this. there's a real bias about jp games being sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. any difference from aaa western games is harshly criticized. Endorph fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 10, 2023 21:03
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Aug 10, 2023 21:07
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Cutedge posted:I thought the only people who had an anti-japan and pro-western bias are ubisoft game developers that got super offended when someone made that "what if elden ring was made by ubisoft" meme and then wrote a screed about how bad elden ring user experience is, lol It kinda existed before if you look in certain places like X-Play but the huge backlash to Final Fantasy XIII kicked off this weird phase in the industry where a bunch of people (Mostly journalists, but some devs too) started getting weirdly racist about Japanese games and their developers. Keiji Inafune trying to turn Capcom Western by outsourcing their games to Western devs was one of the bigger symptoms of this, but there were also things like Phil Fish saying "Japanese games suck" to the face of Japanese game developer Makoto Goto in the middle of GDC, DmC: Devil May Cry's pitch being full of anti-Japanese humor, etc. It's mellowed out a bit thanks in part to Capcom's big return to form after kicking out Inafune (A shame Mega Man had to be a casualty of that) but you still see it crop back up here and there like with the Elden Ring Western dev backlash or Yoshi-P talking at length about why he never liked the term JRPG because he only ever saw reviewers using it as a pejorative in the 2010's when it first cropped up post-FFXIII. Edit: Yeah Kotaku's been pretty awful.
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Aug 10, 2023 21:14
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when yoshida pointed out the weird racism that used to be super prevalent basically every game journo was like 'uhm... i dont get what hes saying??? its so hard to parse...' while people dug up videos of the same exact people basically doing chinaman accents heck speaking of china until genshin got big there was still insane racism towards chinese gamedev. even genshin itself was just reported on in gaming press as a 'breath of the wild ripoff' and every western site sided with chinese internet trolls who were mad at the game without any further investigation. https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/08/05/chinese-zelda-fans-protest-alleged-the-legend-of-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-rip-off-genshin-impact https://kotaku.com/zelda-fans-protest-smash-ps4-over-very-similar-chinese-1836963210 this is from less than 4 years ago and is basically entirely 'all china can do is rip people off!!' reporting with barely any investigation. Endorph fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 10, 2023 21:16
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Endorph posted:this is 100% true lol, just look at kotaku going on an insane hitjob about ff16. they literally ran an article about how we need to be meaner to japanese games. as i said in the post you quoted, i was asking more about the pro-western part rather than the anti-japanese part
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Aug 10, 2023 21:30
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Kotaku put out a piece saying that ff16 had too confusing of a story because it had an in game book that explained who all the characters and factions are. There is a lot of poo poo that they don't deserve but they were very weirdly lovely about ff16. Also regarding gamergate -- I don't know if it flipped 2016 or not but the alt-right forces that it created definitely had a hand in mobilizing parts of the country to vote for Trump and to kickstart the culture war. But I also have to point out that even if it didn't, GG turned 4chan and 8chan (which blew up originally because moot exiled all the GG folks there when even he had enough) into online reactionary strongholds. And then from that, one day a troll cryptically posted under a tripcode labeled Q some random conspiracy bullshit, and the rest is history. Feldegast42 fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 10, 2023 21:31
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Mr Interweb posted:as i said in the post you quoted, i was asking more about the pro-western part rather than the anti-japanese part Like, when some guy decides to talk about how Japanese games have NEVER had good gay rep, the 'unlike the last of us 2' is pretty implicit.
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Aug 10, 2023 21:38
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Orv posted:As for the actual topic of the thread everyone’s pretty much said everything I could care to. Though I think with things like Feminist Frequency or the Barbie movie or whatever, yeah sure maybe they’re very surface level feminism but we currently live in a world where most men are still raised to view women as objects so it’s clearly needed. They sure aren’t going to engage with deeper stuff. The good news is that at some point during the mid-2010s nerd culture wars, luckily, a lot of people realized you can play games without being a Gamer™, and that it's not the worst thing in the world if game developers make female characters with sensible attire and fully formed characterization. I'm not sure how much of that you can credit to Sarkeesian's videos in particular, but you could at least make an argument there that she was part of that shift.
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Aug 10, 2023 22:36
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