|
Endorph posted:this is 100% true lol, just look at kotaku going on an insane hitjob about ff16. they literally ran an article about how we need to be meaner to japanese games. I've seen people highlight the article(s) about Baldur's Gate 3 being 'unapologetically horny', saying that if it were a Japanese game doing the same things, there would be a negative reaction to it. You could maybe argue that's not the case, but ever since those old X-Play videos surfaced, gaming outlets really haven't really tried that hard to shake the notion that they're biased against Japanese games (the Plunkett tweet probably being the worst). Endorph posted:remembering red string club, a game with multiple trans devs and a trans character, where there's a bit when some creepy stalker dude uses a trans character's dead name as his email password. and the literal only gaming site to cover it made a giant stink about DONT DEADNAME. EVER. and accused the devs of being massive transphobes. Endorph posted:the writer yelling at the devs later tried to say it was okay for her to do this because she was bi I remember this happening, and hold this up as an answer to 'why don't more devs tackle issues of representation in games?' EightFlyingCars posted:there was an LA Times article recently about how the movie Oppenheimer portrayed the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or rather, how it didn't. the full article is worth a read, and it shouldn't be paywalled unless you regularly visit the site, but the money quote is near the end (edited slightly for brevity): This is kind peripheral to point of the article (and the current discussion), but if you want an film that depicts the bombing from Japan's perspective, there are other films that do that. The Moon Monster posted:I just assumed it was because the movie was about Oppenheimer himself moreso than the Manhattan project and he didn't actually see the bombs being dropped That's what I thought too, and I haven't even seen the film! 
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2023 23:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 09:26 |
|
|
Lady Radia posted:there was a Nolan Exposition Character lol who do you think RDJ and RDJ's..assistant? bestie? was meant to be? Fair point
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2023 05:42
|
|
|
bringing things back on track a bit: i think orienting discussion around Feminist Frequency's failures is actually a good idea - not because I necessarily think she did anything wrong, but because analyzing the intentions and shortcomings is informative. in that frame of mind is where I basically agree with Endorph's take that it gave devs an easy out, so to speak, since it didn't require critical thinking - i'm sure she did analyses like that to simply be accessible. The accessibility, though, helped make her such a large target for so, so many years. And again we sort of see the long term repercussions and failings there - again, not at all Sarkeesian's fault, but like, the rabid response to ultimately very tepid and surface level analysis should have been an early indicator for the wider culture and community that there was a much, much deeper rot in "gaming".
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2023 06:12
|
|
|
Lady Radia posted:bringing things back on track a bit: Yes, absolutely.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2023 07:52
|
|
|
I strongly believe there would have been absolutely no difference in the response had FF been entirely perfect either. The backlash was a primarily emotional response, and while people may have wrapped it up in some pedantic complaint, it would have happened regardless.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2023 08:40
|
|
|
Bug Squash posted:I strongly believe there would have been absolutely no difference in the response had FF been entirely perfect either. The backlash was a primarily emotional response, and while people may have wrapped it up in some pedantic complaint, it would have happened regardless.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2023 08:41
|
|
|
one of the fundamental problems with these discussions is in fact the dividing of literally all possible responses to the videos, and sexism at large in the game industry, into 'gamergate' and 'morally pure and completely correct person'
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2023 08:43
|
|
|
That's broadly an issue with AAA reducing issues to a checklist, rather than any inherent failure on the part of Tropes vs. Women. Even if Tropes vs. Women had provided a full college degrees level of education, that response would have been identical.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2023 08:59
|
|
|
youtube videos are blameless, holy creatures i dont mean aaa games either i mean, normal people, saying stupid stuff, based on things they got in her videos, while casting themselves as feminists
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2023 09:09
|
|
|
Endorph posted:again youre misunderstanding what people are saying, nobody's saying the gamergate dudes would have been kinder if there'd been more research in the videos. we're talking about how people who actually did listen to her to an extent coming away with wrong impressions. so you're talking about like..."moderate" Gamergate fans?
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2023 23:19
|
|
|
We've taught people through years of edutainment and sesame street that education has to be fun, sat kids in front of tvs for their entire lives, and gave them video games and non stop stimulation to the point that they create more loyalty to products than people. Combine that with the destruction of public discourse through meaningless cable and internet news, to be followed up by things like tiktok literally training people that they should only watch things for 5 to 30 seconds at most and twitter reducing conversation to a mere 140 characters (at the time). After all that, someone comes in with the most milquetoast criticism that you know maybe Princess Peach shouldn't have to be rescued in every single game and it becomes World War VG for people. It's unsurprising. The amount of research is irrelevant when you treat mario as a sacred text in which any criticism is heresy. You should be able to admit that Super Metroid is the best game that has been or will ever be made (truth) and simultaneously admit that the way her armor blew off when she died and it showed her in her underwear was unnecessary fanservice. Alas, people are unable to have that conversation. There is no way that a well researched video or more complicated discussions of rainbow capitalism or racewashing could or would make a difference, because people were too busy tripping over their own dicks about the idea that there could be any conversation about video games other than "BESTEST GAMEZ OF ALL TIMES".
Cutedge fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Aug 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 00:05
|
|
|
Mr Interweb posted:so you're talking about like..."moderate" Gamergate fans? no, i mean people who agreed with her and then didnt do any further research or thinking about feminism, they just think watching 2 youtube videos 15 years ago has given them literally all the information they need and they can just act on that, forever. i dont mean the people who got mad at her!!! Cutedge posted:There is no way that a well researched video or more complicated discussions of rainbow capitalism or racewashing could or would make a difference, between people were too busy tripping over their own dicks about the idea that there could be any conversation about video games other than "BESTEST GAMEZ OF ALL TIMES".
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 01:58
|
|
|
trying to explain to people that a 10 minute youtube video is not the pinnacle of feminism feels like im trying to explain the concept of antarctica to scarab beetle.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 02:01
|
|
|
I agree with Endorph, too many people stopped at FF’s basic and incomplete analysis and called it a day. a well researched series would result in a more educated population, especially with how the Streisand Effect boosted the videos’ visibility. I do think of the series as a bit of a missed opportunity. I think plenty of people came in wanting to learn and came away disappointed, so that left both reactionaries and people who knew literally nothing, who decided this was the only education they were going to give themselves since it was such a big deal Don’t forget that Anita actually gave talks at studios and was a consultant too. A lot of people acted like Anita was the only sage guru of feminist wisdom in the industry. Also a bizarre amount of you are misreading Endorph’s posts at a level that makes me concerned for your own media literacy. She’s repeatedly said she’s talking about regular people, not GG freaks. The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Aug 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 02:14
|
|
|
yeah lol. she didnt deserve what she got at all but also like, literally all im saying here is that it would have been nice if her videos had spent 30 seconds mentioning games made by and for women and the video descriptions had included some links to other writing on the topic. she profited off the idea that she was basically the only woman to ever put these thoughts out there or even conceive of anything different. im not saying shes some massive scam artist or anything but there's no reason she should have been doing 'consulting work' or whatever. a lot of men, and even women, who think of themselves as leftist, educated, and feminist, still have a real inability to perceive of women as people with a diverse range of opinions who have been talking to each other about their frustrations, likes, dislikes, and wants, for centuries. its a fundamental problem with society, not a problem only 'bad people' have, and you can't watch youtube videos or tweet your way out of it, it requires a shift in the way you view the world. gamergate was in many ways an incredibly convenient shield for this form of sexism, because so long as you dont send women death threats you have a free ride to calling yourself a feminist. heck, ive seen guys like that harass, yell at, and insult women for the mildest personal deviation from what they perceive as feminism. someone in this thread even said they were a victim of that! people in this thread have basically insinuated im a gamergater for saying i dont think the videos are especially good. its insane.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 02:27
|
|
|
Endorph posted:trying to explain to people that a 10 minute youtube video is not the pinnacle of feminism feels like im trying to explain the concept of antarctica to scarab beetle. so its just extra cold in the winter, right
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 02:31
|
|
|
Feels like people are still hard-stuck in the "If you have any criticism of FF whatsoever, you're literally Gamer Hitler" mentality that was appeared as response to the overwhelming bullshit backlash against Anita.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 02:32
|
|
|
For what it's worth I think almost every post in this thread has admitted that the actual videos were basic and entry level to put it nicely. But I think we can all trust each other enough ITT that someone can post criticism without assuming the worst possible motivation.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 02:47
|
|
|
like if we want to talk about the cynical capitalism side of things i'd say that people generally know right from wrong, and that games weren't full of sexist imagery and writing for years simply because developers didn't eat the Forbidden Apple of a kickstarted video series and go "OHHHHH this stuff is BAD?? what has science done!!". an industry with booth babes for years and 'sex sells' promotions in magazines for decades knows what they're doing. abuse and harassment are still rampant at major studios because sexist attitudes prevail at the top of the pyramid and they can put out a game featuring Powerful Representation while being an absolutely rotten place to work for. the shame of it is that at a pretty crucial time in the industry, we didn't have a better form of education for those who were actually willing to learn when it was at its peak of visibility. idk that anything is going to ever going to get that amount of attention and news coverage again. i don't want to put that all on Anita, though. i think something we still struggle with to this day is worrying/obsessing over How Chuds Will React, it's like that capitalist trap of the film industry where a distributor will intentionally rile up reactionaries online with how they promote, let's say hmm not gonna name anything specific here absolutely not...... a film that's an all-woman reboot of an 80s franchise. And then they throw their cast to the wolves to be harassed online and don't protect them, so that the internet sees the harassment and rallies around the film, shouting "let's not let The Chuds win! let's go see Ghostbu--- I mean, that generic film that's an all-woman reboot of an 80's franchise!" and if you don't support the film, you're one of Them!! or whenever a game with decent representation or themes comes out, someone absolutely has to share some tweet of a person with 4 followers being really mad at the game, so people can Feel Good about their video game as an act of Praxis. Like in this thread, people saying "the response would be the same even if FF was really deep and insightful" places too much weight on the retaliation vs the overall good that could've been done. if the response would've been the same no matter what, that's all the more reason to do as good a job as possible. admittedly this is all a US-centric perspective but like, we've seen in this country that even when people compromise to 'both sides', the reactionary retaliation is the same. did Bud Light removing that trans sponsorship cause reactionaries to go "oh ok I'll buy Bud Light again"? of course not, they're Woke Forever now. that's why you can't worry about that poo poo. I also think too many people were spending all their time fighting GG and alt-righters on social media in the 2010s and not enough people were elevating important discussions and content. i'm certainly one of those people who argued at assholes in futility. The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Aug 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 02:59
|
|
|
mycot posted:For what it's worth I think almost every post in this thread has admitted that the actual videos were basic and entry level to put it nicely. But I think we can all trust each other enough ITT that someone can post criticism without assuming the worst possible motivation. i think the point being made by endorph and co (and i count myself among that because i agree) is theres a fairly large difference between "basic" and "insufficient" and anita was the latter. saying "no i dont think she actually did a job up to standard, and i wish she had" doesnt make you gamergate adjacent but weirdly thats a thing thats been said in here more than once
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 03:36
|
|
|
Kagaya Homoraisan posted:i think the point being made by endorph and co (and i count myself among that because i agree) is theres a fairly large difference between "basic" and "insufficient" and anita was the latter. saying "no i dont think she actually did a job up to standard, and i wish she had" doesnt make you gamergate adjacent but weirdly thats a thing thats been said in here more than once That's putting it less nicely But I get your point that there's a step between "oh she just didn't do enough" and criticism and the second should still be fine.The 7th Guest posted:I also think too many people were spending all their time fighting GG and alt-righters on social media in the 2010s and not enough people were elevating important discussions and content. i'm certainly one of those people who argued at assholes in futility. I don't think anyone should blame themselves for getting swept up, it felt like a truly unprecedented level of trolling at the time. There were memes about the Internet Hate Machine but that was seemingly the first time that kind of nakedly hateful edginess was widespread enough to be semi-mainstream. Ultimately it wasn't as apocalyptic as people thought it was, but mostly because people became desensitized.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 04:02
|
|
|
Endorph posted:yeah lol. she didnt deserve what she got at all but also like, literally all im saying here is that it would have been nice if her videos had spent 30 seconds mentioning games made by and for women and the video descriptions had included some links to other writing on the topic. she profited off the idea that she was basically the only woman to ever put these thoughts out there or even conceive of anything different. im not saying shes some massive scam artist or anything but there's no reason she should have been doing 'consulting work' or whatever. Anita videos made fair critiques, but her word isn't gospel, and there are other women or different spheres of feminism that have different perspectives and feelings about what's good and what needs to be changed. However, people took her videos as the go-to rubric for representation in games and ignored or squashed anything that didn't fit that mold. That's how I read what you said. I guess the question I'd ask is if Anita at fault for not promoting other women with alternate perspectives? I remember someone saying her critique aired on the side of sex-negativity, but there's no way to know if she just didn't acknowledge sex-positivity, or if she was against it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 04:07
|
|
|
Max Wilco posted:I guess the question I'd ask is if Anita at fault for not promoting other women with alternate perspectives? I remember someone saying her critique aired on the side of sex-negativity, but there's no way to know if she just didn't acknowledge sex-positivity, or if she was against it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 04:10
|
|
|
Endorph posted:jesus christ. sorry i didn't mean for it to come off as negative as it seemed. when i said "moderate gamergaters" i thought you were genuinely referring to GG'ers that might have had the potential to be persuaded
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 04:52
|
|
|
so to go back to Feminist Frequency itself, is her more recent work better than the old stuff? have any of her opinions changed? does she work with women gamedevs now?
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 05:47
|
|
|
VostokProgram posted:so to go back to Feminist Frequency itself, is her more recent work better than the old stuff? have any of her opinions changed? does she work with women gamedevs now?
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 06:02
|
|
|
sad lol
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 06:07
|
|
|
yeah her last actual essay vid seems to have been about 7 years ago. she also seems to barely talk about video games anymore
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 06:11
|
|
|
its also weird to look back on because her vids were like, this massive tideshift that everyone was talking about and dominated discourse, and all but one of them barely hit 1 million views, with a lot of the 'big' videos being in the 500k-700k range. i understand that youtube was smaller back then but those are numbers like a 100k subs video game essay guy gets these days, not this dominant force in the conversation.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 06:14
|
|
|
that doesn't seem too weird, you don't have to actually look at the source material to take shots in an internet war. and the ideas got distilled and regurgitated and recirculated through articles and blogs and stuff, so there were probably people who even supported her who never bothered to watch a video because hey I'm not a sexist I don't need to see it!
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 06:27
|
|
|
VostokProgram posted:that doesn't seem too weird, you don't have to actually look at the source material to take shots in an internet war. and the ideas got distilled and regurgitated and recirculated through articles and blogs and stuff, so there were probably people who even supported her who never bothered to watch a video because hey I'm not a sexist I don't need to see it!
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 06:34
|
|
|
Kagaya Homoraisan posted:i think the point being made by endorph and co (and i count myself among that because i agree) is theres a fairly large difference between "basic" and "insufficient" and anita was the latter. saying "no i dont think she actually did a job up to standard, and i wish she had" doesnt make you gamergate adjacent but weirdly thats a thing thats been said in here more than once A bit off topic but do the posters in this thread have any suggestions/pointers/recommendations for good feminist writers/creators in the same niche?
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 06:35
|
|
|
Endorph posted:yeah her last actual essay vid seems to have been about 7 years ago. she also seems to barely talk about video games anymore Who could blame her?
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 08:31
|
|
|
Endorph posted:im sure there are a lot of people who genuinely went 'ive heard of the concept of a feminist video about mario, im cured of my sexism' 
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 15:20
|
|
|
Endorph, Anita had a male assistant for her early years of videos with a 'peculiar' ideology. As in, he is a hippie of the sort that thinks the US had to force every soldier in ww2 to kill because people 'naturally don't want to harm others'. He despises violence of every kind in videogames. He extended this to his work with Anita and it leaked through fully to that condemnation on doom 2016. I don't remember his name, but he had utterly bizarre twitter posts, one of which was that conspiracy theory.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 16:09
|
|
|
Right, Anita was just a puppet of Some Assistant Guy. Too woman-brained to even have her own ideas.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 16:37
|
|
|
Imagine being against ripping n tearing demons. What a bozo
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 16:39
|
|
|
Jonathan McIntosh who I really suspect was trolling because his posts were so obviously inflammatory.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 16:53
|
|
|
McIntosh was one of those people who say like "Mario is capitalist because you collect coins" and act like this is some kind of incisive deep cut
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 16:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 09:26 |
|
|
Feels Villeneuve posted:Jonathan McIntosh who I really suspect was trolling because his posts were so obviously inflammatory. Honestly it's mostly the way people tend to write things these days that trolling is just considered the way you get people to read, and that a willingness to troll is genuinely confused with an actual passion for the things you're writing about.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2023 16:59
|
|
