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He has spent the last 5 hours using the tools he does have to look into this.
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Aug 22, 2023 05:30
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it does not inspire confidence that you are the one to tell us this, rather than him
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Aug 22, 2023 05:32
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I'm also in direct contact, he's not doing nothing.
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Aug 22, 2023 05:32
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Because he is still busy with it, not me.
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Aug 22, 2023 05:32
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Fluffdaddy posted:He has spent the last 5 hours using the tools he does have to look into this. 
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Aug 22, 2023 05:32
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Fluffdaddy posted:He has spent the last 5 hours using the tools he does have to look into this. That's good
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Aug 22, 2023 05:54
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Fluffdaddy posted:He has spent the last 5 hours using the tools he does have to look into this. That's reassuring.
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Aug 22, 2023 06:02
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Fluffdaddy posted:He has spent the last 5 hours using the tools he does have to look into this. ty for updating us all
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Aug 22, 2023 06:07
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Thanks for looking into it Jeffrey
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Aug 22, 2023 06:22
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Fluffdaddy posted:He has spent the last 5 hours using the tools he does have to look into this. Fluffdaddy posted:Because he is still busy with it, not me. 
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Aug 22, 2023 06:26
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Jeff we dont hate you, we just want you to come back with the smokes u said u were getting Ty for peeking into this
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Aug 22, 2023 06:43
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Fluffdaddy posted:He has spent the last 5 hours using the tools he does have to look into this. that's great. he should also shut off buying avatars for others until traceability is improved.
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Aug 22, 2023 06:53
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susan b buffering posted:that's great. he should also shut off buying avatars for others until traceability is improved. This is effectively shutting it down for good
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Aug 22, 2023 06:54
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Something I don't think Jeffs ever adequately explained, but I can, is that there is NO traceability to the level people are expecting here. I have many means to donate to me, and you can put a fake name and address in all of them. This guy regularly gives me money through paypal and stripe, normally 4.00$, with fun names like "Die Tranny" and addresses like "40 percent lane." I work with police, I have about a dozen fake email addresses, I have about a dozen different credit card numbers, with colorful names and slogans. My partner, who I won't link too directly out of wanting to keep her safe, has a sticker store, and it doxxed me at one time because the customer support email and address was my home address. He regularly makes purchases with them to see if it'll happen again. some places require you to put an actual factual address, but you can pull any address up on Google Maps and put that in. When you make a purchase with a credit card the credit card company never actually checks or sends your address to the payment processor. As long as the number, name, expiration, and security code match, it just accepts it. Hell he's put MY address in as a fake address, which is fun. The main reason I don't agitate for this, or really comment on it is because as far as I know, this kind of harassment just isn't possible to stop. You either live with it until it goes away or you move. jeff and I talk, a lot, we both love the forums, we both tried to buy the forums, we both want to see this community thrive, I think that's in part why he lets me use the forums as a small base to run my comic community out of. I know people don't like him, but I trust him implicitly. I don't think he's cruel or callous or has given up. I'll always go to bat for Jeff, because he's a genuinely good guy, who helped me personally when I was in a very dark place. i don't know what the code base for this place is like, and this might not be a simple fix. I truly don't believe he'd leave it running like this if it was a simple fix, if only because cool calculations say crazy guy who spends 10$ to buy a lovely av will probably pay 20$ to buy a fake account and a fake av.
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Aug 22, 2023 07:10
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Pladdicus posted:Jeff we dont hate you, we just want you to come back with the smokes u said u were getting
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Aug 22, 2023 07:45
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:This is effectively shutting it down for good I mean, as much as I think redtexting is an important part of SA's culture and business model, because of the (I can't believe I'm saying this) innovations and increased dangers in internet harassment as compared to 15 years ago, maybe we need to accept that it can no longer be a thing. Or at least, no longer a thing that happens some level of without community, mod, or admin oversight. Maybe there can be an admin who queues up these changes and says "Okay, this one doesn't contain PII or NSFW stuff, approved" but otherwise doesn't interfere. That would solve the worst aspects of it, because even if someone wants to continually redtext someone with their home address, almost no one will see it anyway. I speak strictly on a policy/procedural level; I have no idea what the technological hurdles are.
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Aug 22, 2023 09:24
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If the backend offers little to no traceability, which is what it has sounded like, then anonymous av buys need to be shut down until a fix can be implemented, and such fix needs to be the top of the code pile because even allowing a pipeline of easy harassment for this long is honestly demoralizing. I don't think Jeff is a bad guy but I would much rather have redtexting shut down for however long it takes to make sure people don't get doxxed or trans folk don't get told to kill themselves. This is what you would call a Critical Severity/Critical Priority issue for a website you own and would like to see thrive. e: ArfJason posted:Jeffrey from my experiences isnt a bad or malicious dude but sometimes hes stubborn and does the disappearing act which is stupidly frustrating to deal with when poo poo goes sideways. But theres one thing that you all gotta know and its that this is something jeffrey wont be able to fix. Not to say you aren't right but Boba's issue is only one of several that have come to the surface about anonymous av purchases and raising the barrier of entry around targetted harassment to "none at all" would still be a welcome change. A long-term goal might even be making it so all av purchases are tied to a forum account, AND someone with an account with less than [x] number of posts can only buy avatars for themselves. Doing something is better than doing nothing. Monathin fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 09:58
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Jeffrey from my experiences isnt a bad or malicious dude but sometimes hes stubborn and does the disappearing act which is stupidly frustrating to deal with when poo poo goes sideways. But theres one thing that you all gotta know and its that this is something jeffrey wont be able to fix. Make av purchases traceable. So? As boba points out the kinda freak whod spend time and effort stalking someone and then would pay 10 bucks to buy an avatar absolutely would pay the extra 10 for a throwaway account on top and youre back to square 1. Remove the av purchase function? They can always just make a thread posting that poo poo. Ip ban? Vpn services. There really is no technological implementation that solves this. Once the info is out the genie cant be put back in the bottle. This case is especially unfortunate cause boba pearl didnt realize that whole thing with their partners store. But i want to highlight that in the cases where you can influence the outcome, the only true solution is to prevent it, and to never ever give up any morsel of personal info, and this situation goes to show how crafty and dedicated people like this are. VVVV Oh yeah a hundred percent it makes the barrier slightly more inconvenient, and itll trap people who dont know about it on their main. Once. It should be an easy and welcome feature, but i fear that as mentioned earlier, people who do this poo poo already would deal with the minimal hassle and keep on with their nonsense. I just want people to realize this is only a bandaid on a gashing wound and everyone needs to be super careful with their online personas more than ever. Not a condemnation nor a call to inaction but rather to implore people to be more alert ArfJason fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 09:59
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i dont think anyone thinks this will stop it forever, but making you have to log in to make av purchases only makes things more onerous for people being pieces of poo poo, and doesn't affect anyone using it for its intended purpose. so its an easy thing to support
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Aug 22, 2023 10:02
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If avatar traceability is a huge hassle and won't come for months it still seems reasonable to just turn off avatar purchases until then. If either way it will take months it's either months of Jeff not making as much money, or months of vulnerable people being harassed. I guess I'm not Jeff so I can't speak for him but I'd be pretty disappointed if he chose the money in that case especially since he's a bitcoin milionaire or whatever.
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Aug 22, 2023 10:37
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Fluffdaddy posted:He has spent the last 5 hours using the tools he does have to look into this. That's genuinely good to hear.
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Aug 22, 2023 10:59
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Av blanks need to be approved by an admin, right? So there's a mechanism in place for av changes to be approved? Can that just be applied to all av changes? They can remain anonymous then, if that's a technical/spiritual issue.
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Aug 22, 2023 11:28
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Fluffdaddy posted:He has spent the last 5 hours using the tools he does have to look into this.
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Aug 22, 2023 11:28
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Monathin posted:
I suspect anonymous harrassers would do burner accounts if it became tied to an account. So given some forums don't raise and even lower your post count, the next bar could be that av purchases can only be done with a Platinum account?
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Aug 22, 2023 11:56
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Fluffdaddy posted:He has spent the last 5 hours using the tools he does have to look into this. Thanks Fluff and thanks Jeff.
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Aug 22, 2023 11:57
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Slugworth posted:Av blanks need to be approved by an admin, right? So there's a mechanism in place for av changes to be approved? Can that just be applied to all av changes? They can remain anonymous then, if that's a technical/spiritual issue. We don't have any connection to the store. Title blanks or changes are done entirely on the forums side through the modqueue so we do approve/reject those, but from our perspective anything happening through the store just happens without us ever seeing it. idk if it has to be that way or could be changed, but that's how it is right now.
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Aug 22, 2023 11:58
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Spinz posted:Nah Fluffdaddy posted:He has spent the last 5 hours using the tools he does have to look into this. Ohtori Akio posted:it does not inspire confidence that you are the one to tell us this, rather than him I get the instinct to turtle up and just not interact with people being dicks to me, I really do, Jeff, but doing that is just going to make people angrier at you. You're doing the exact same thing Lowtax would do, minus breaking things first before swanning off again- if you want people to stop being dicks to you, you need to actually interact with them on the regular. And you're going to have to accept that there is no way to please everyone, there is always going to be a contingent who are never going to be happy with you, for reasons either legitimate or imagined.
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Aug 22, 2023 12:28
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:I suspect anonymous harrassers would do burner accounts if it became tied to an account. So given some forums don't raise and even lower your post count, the next bar could be that av purchases can only be done with a Platinum account? You know I was going to say "would posting in the pink forum really lower a post count so FYAD regulars couldn't buy changes if the threshold was 30 Posts" and then I remembered almost all of Radium's code is garbage so it almost certainly works like that. The idea of burner accounts having to post [x] amount of times, where x is a non-trivial number, is it'll give Mods/Admins something to spot, and cut down the abuse cases to all but the most deranged. Buying Plat is just another money-gate, but having to interact with the forums and not immediately get launched into the sun seems like it would have the biggest effort on curbing the most amount of use cases, provided there's a workaround for negative postcounts. (Absolute value? Probably not supported but that'd be my first thought as someone who dabbles in computer-touching) That's just my two cents as an ex-Community Manager, though. Take it or leave it. Monathin fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 12:36
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Putting the purchase behind the paywall would be the best way to do it probably.
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Aug 22, 2023 12:41
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Really getting lost in the weeds here. Just add literally any hurdle. Anything more than what we got.
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Aug 22, 2023 12:41
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vyelkin posted:We don't have any connection to the store. Title blanks or changes are done entirely on the forums side through the modqueue so we do approve/reject those, but from our perspective anything happening through the store just happens without us ever seeing it. idk if it has to be that way or could be changed, but that's how it is right now. The only way to prevent this is for a human being to approve the text/av before it goes live. Either the purchase is delayed until it's approved or it doesn't go live until it's approved. I imagine the latter is easier than the former. e: For legal reasons you should probably add some text about the text/av being subject to approval and your funds being forfeited if it violates TOS but IANAL. DickParasite fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 12:42
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Zesty posted:Really getting lost in the weeds here. As someone who has bought a handful of red texts over the years, maybe just disable them altogether until any hurdle can be erected. Buying other people avs is a big part of the SA culture but it’s not such a sanctosant trait as to allow this bullshit to continue. Also glad to hear that Jeff is working on the issue, in some way.
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Aug 22, 2023 12:45
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:I suspect anonymous harrassers would do burner accounts if it became tied to an account. So given some forums don't raise and even lower your post count, the next bar could be that av purchases can only be done with a Platinum account? skilled people can pick the lock on my front door in 5 seconds, but a lock is still an extremely useful thing to have because it still deters the vast majority of people. you'll never stop the most dedicated, insane people, no, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a point in still making efforts to deter or prevent the rest of people
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Aug 22, 2023 12:49
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Literally any hurdle will do, because right now what we have is none. Well, being able to properly spell your intended targets username might count for some people, but not for most.
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Aug 22, 2023 12:50
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All of these solutions seem kind of pointless to me if it really is possible to spoof every identifiable aspect of a payment, I don’t see much difference between doxxing or harassing someone with an avatar and doing it with posts or threads.
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Aug 22, 2023 12:51
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Everyone who talks about how folks will just dox them through posts or threads don't understand their mindset at all. It's not about sharing to an audience their target address or personal information, it's to specifically let their target know that they know their addresses and personal information. They wouldn't make a post or thread because whomever they're after could miss seeing those which isn't what those psychos want.
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Aug 22, 2023 12:59
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Yeah, I don't care if the determined will find a way around it. That's the same with every rule, every law, every loving thing. That doesn't mean there's no need to disable or disincentivize the casual dox and we all have to stick our hands in our pockets and just kick dust and go "Oh, raspberries." I am happy to hear that it's being looked at.
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Aug 22, 2023 13:05
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Jonah Galtberg posted:All of these solutions seem kind of pointless to me if it really is possible to spoof every identifiable aspect of a payment, I don’t see much difference between doxxing or harassing someone with an avatar and doing it with posts or threads.
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Aug 22, 2023 13:07
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Yeah, the hypothetical genius hacker who can get around any legal or technical hurdle and yet just cares about buying people lovely avatars rather than, you know, getting revenge on their former employer who stole their patents through a series of elaborate riddles or something is not going to be stopped by tying avatar purchases to a logged in account, but I'm pretty sure we're mostly not dealing with comic book supervillains here.
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Aug 22, 2023 13:39
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Red text is probably how the site makes most of its money, but Jeffrey has shown he has no problem trying to get rid of people even if it makes a noticeable difference in store revenue.Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:
Is it possible to not have an avatar change if it's an anonymous purchase until it is approved by an admin or mod? That could help head off the majority of these doxxing incidents unless a mistake is made, and something gets through. I guess this depends on how many avatars are bought for others. If it's like 10 a day that doesn't seem so hard to maintain, but if its 100s it could get cumbersome for volunteer staff.
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