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Big Leg posted:my takeaway from the this set of episodes is that utena is way funnier than i expected it to be. I've very recently done a full rewatch of the show and one of my favorite things to rediscover is how funny these earlier episodes are. It's a really clever way to introduce the setting and characters. Like as much as I wish Saionji would just gently caress off, it's also hysterical for him to get dunked on like this.
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Sep 5, 2023 15:43
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 Kozue rules. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Sep 26, 2023 |
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Sep 26, 2023 09:05
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Julias posted:Unless you're European i guess As a European, it seems very on point for a prince to me.  Juri and Shiori's relationship is peak tragic yuri. I love how hosed up the whole thing is. Anthy joking about her and Utena loving and it going right over Utenas head will always be funny to me. Utena is just SUCH a dumb jock.
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Oct 2, 2023 08:37
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Big Leg posted:episode 16 (Operation: Oh! Anthy Himemiya is a total weirdo who keeps a cow in her backyard!) stands out to me because conceptually it's pretty similar to the episodes around it, except nanami's obsession/delusion is a personal issue and not based on a relationship. as a first time watcher i don't really know if there's a thematic or narrative reason for the placement outside of the perfectly valid 'nanami + funny = good episode' logic, but it will be cool to look back on when i have more context. I will say that there is not an unimportant episode of Utena (maybe one). Everything is thematically or narratively relevant. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Oct 3, 2023 |
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Oct 3, 2023 09:53
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Ep 19 - The guy being so boring that Mikage just stops the elevator and tells him to piss off is great. Dudes trauma is too vanilla for rooftop swordfights.Midjack posted:20 - Utena refuses to take up a weapon against Wakaba but unsurprisingly beats her anyway. Knew we'd see Saionji back at school. He's really thoughtless to Wakaba for sheltering and feeding him, kind of a through line for him. Seems like he's back for good so I'm assuming we can look forward to watching him pick fights with Utena and slap Anthy around again. Is there anything limiting the frequency of duels, or could someone with superior endurance like Juri just spam challenges at Utena nonstop until she just falls over from exhaustion? I believe at some point in season 1 there was a chart showing that each duelist has 1 shot at beating the current holder of the Rose Bride. Saionji got to challenge Utena after losing and Utena got to challenge Touga after losing, so it has pretty much kept to this rule I think. Mikage is explicitly going outside of the usual dueling system, but as we've seen he's also limited in how many duelists he can find and is either unable or unwilling to use people Utena has already defeated. Also, I doubt any duelist could outlast Utena. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 16:37
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I like that Anthy actually gets worried during the Wakaba duel and how Wakaba just goes after Anthy instead of Utena. Wakaba really was angry enough to kill her and Utena and she was probably worried Utena wouldn't fight back in time. I think Wakaba was the only black duelist who might have won if Utena hadn't of found her resolve to win.
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Oct 11, 2023 08:10
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 Mood. Mikage is a great character. As noted, he's very similar to Utena physically as a direct parallel. Both have pink hair, are obsessed over an event from their past, and are gay for Anthy. It's hard not to gush over this arc and spoil everything so I'll just say that going from that ending into a highlight reel of Nanami moments is peak. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 21:26
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This Nanami episode is definitely quite plot relevant as well. Although all the Nanami episodes are, I think this is the point where it becomes.... less subtle that there is a common theme of what is happening in them. Kozue going in for the kiss on Anthy is amazing. Kozue is honestly more based than I remembered, she was also fully ready to kill that teacher getting handsy with her brother. Akio loving sucks. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Oct 23, 2023 |
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Oct 23, 2023 17:54
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chrome line posted:Since everyone seems to enjoy these I'll keep them coming! Yes please, these things are amazing. I like that you pointed it out because it is kind of breezed over but the fact that it's revealed to not be Ruka's sword that Shiori has been polishing means that it was Juri's. Their lockers are right next to each other but I don't think it was translated in the sub. So add that to Shiori's repressed homosexuality and twisted obsession with Juri, which was alluded to in her last appearance where she freaks out after finding out Juri is attracted to her. Both girls are secretly into each other but are unable to express it for their own reasons, which is why it's such a toxic relationship. Ruka is a socially accepted verson of Juri who she can get validation and affection from which is why she falls so hard for him, but it was all a lie on both sides. I'm not sure if Ruka knew that Shiori was the person he has to "save" Juri from until the locker scene but he definitely seized on it to gently caress with her and she's exactly the type of person to instinctively lie about it for her benefit. I think his goal here is just to demonstrate how awful Shiori is to get Juri to fall out of love with her, which obviously doesn't work lol. Also good to hear that you're watching the previews, I would say that every new timer should be because they're often very insightful/funny. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 09:25
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Midjack posted:I don't have time to say much about these and I think other posters go into far more detail than I'm likely to anyway. Everyones thoughts are cool to see, hope you get more time for the series. One thing I like about Juri is that when Ruka says she has the talent to surpass him he isn't lying. Juri is the only duelist so far that Utena has failed to defeat. In the first duel, she actually manages to avoid Utena's Power of Dios finishing attack and only loses because of a  miracle and here she just gives up. She's easily a contender for best duelist in the series.
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Oct 31, 2023 10:23
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Shiori and Juri also grew up together and Juri was seen as more talented and perfect which caused Shiori to develop an inferiority complex to her. That's why Shiori keeps trying to do things to "beat" Juri by hurting her. She also hates herself, believes that Juri is too good for her and IMO is in the closet. So she probably actually is attracted to Juri, but doesn't believe that she could ever actually stand a chance and is in denial about it. So she settles for hurting her instead to keep her attention and validate herself by "winning" in her relationship with Juri. When she does find out that Juri likes her back she can't handle the idea that perfect Juri would love someone as despicable as herself and that she's been hurting someone who she loves and loves her back and so she retreats into trying to control Juri through her feelings. I think she does forget about Juri loving her after that episode though. Here is what Ikuhara’s episode commentary from the DVD Box Set says about Shiori: "EPISODE 17 - “Thorns of Death” I finally realized the truth. To think that she loved me back! What a miracle! But… “The loser in love is the one who lets their heart be ruled by it.” Everyone’s adopted a provocative attitude towards someone of the opposite sex that they like at least once or twice, to get that person to notice them. So it’s okay if I do that. This love will crumble if we touch. But when people don’t touch, the love eventually dies away. That’s why I decided to keep your love prisoner. To make sure that you love me forever. That game will make our love “eternal.” I’m sure of it. We were “lovers lost from the beginning.”" "EPISODE 28 - “Whispers in the Dark” Shiori’s character is the embodiment of Juri’s weak point. That weak point is “love.” Breaking apart the other person. That means controlling the other person’s “life.” bending it to your own imaginings in the real world. It’s the ultimate form of “romance”." Guys I love toxic lesbians. Sorry if I'm posting too much stuff, I figure its ok now that we're near the end of the show. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Nov 1, 2023 |
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Nov 1, 2023 13:03
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Midjack posted:31-32: I was prepared to fast forward this one when I saw the preview. After 30 episodes the writers finally did something worthwhile with Nanami; too bad I ran out of patience with the character hours ago. Get hosed, rear end in a top hat. Or don't. Whichever makes you Touga got his exploitative, misogynistic world-view shattered by Utena and then met Akio who exists as an example that instead of reevaluating anything he should double down and that he just wasn't being enough of a dick. Akio is essentially a more evil, more successful adult version of what Touga aspires to be. Touga being a massive dick to Nanami for no reason and then trying to seduce her is him directly trying to be more like Akio but failing because Nanami never actually wanted to have sex with her brother, she was a child who didn't know what she was talking about. I've always felt that's likely part of why Anthy dislikes her so much. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Nov 6, 2023 |
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Nov 6, 2023 16:02
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more. Not sure why Touga is jerking her around with the whole "we're blood relatives, ha ha sike, no really we are" thing. "Just kidding" recurs through this one with a number of other characters too. Nanami seems most upset that Anthy is getting molested by her brother and she's not; seems like she's winning that comparison but what do I know.
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Ohtori Akio posted:i think after the show wraps, i definitely want a movie week, but we should either keep the thread around for utenaposting and secondary content or goldmine everyone's writing on the topic and make a new one. utena will never die, to me Honestly, you're not actually done watching Utena until you've gone back and rewatched it or discussed it thoroughly afterward anyway. Theres just way too much that only makes sense that way or that you may not know. There was a big thing I only found out about from looking some stuff up for this thread for instance. I'll admit that I'm not too hot on the movie though. I'm interested to seeing the reactions to it if nothing else though. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Nov 10, 2023 |
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Nov 10, 2023 23:54
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I feel like when you say "Akio is in all of us" you really mean "Akio is in all men". None of this really applies to Utena's feelings for Anthy since procreation is off the table in that sense. But even still it wouldn't apply to Akio and Touga, so this is purely about "Akio is in all men who have sex with women."
Nephthys fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Nov 13, 2023 |
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Nov 12, 2023 23:55
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In case anyone wasn't already planning to, any new watcher should listen to the "Next Time" section at the end of episode 36. chrome line posted:I choose to believe the spotlights laying out the obvious here are for Utena's benefit and are as diagetic as anything in this show is. I love the confidence in Utena's ability to put 2 and 2 together. Something that I feel is important to bring up in the final stretch is the concept that Utena's ignorance actually has been genuinely hurtful many times in the show. Early on Juri describes Utena as “cruelly innocent”, and we've seen that there have been several times where she says something out of ignorance that hurts the person she's talking to or makes a situation needlessly worse. Often she will miss the point on something so hard that it's hard to not see it as wilful obliviousness. Utena as a character is rarely discussed even though she's supposedly the star of the show and in part I feel that's due to her inability or refusal to engage with the plot so often. She rarely learns anything and refuses to reconsider her positions while ignoring the toxic situations around her. In a show about abuse, I think this is an important element to pick up on.
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Nov 14, 2023 22:49
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chrome line posted:I think she's oblivious and ignorant, and that's a consistent character trait. However I do think she's slowly coming to realize something is rotten in Ohtori Academy. Her general demeanor has changed a lot from the start of the show, it's subtle but it's there. Even if you disagree that she might have had a realization about Anthy and Akio specifically, or had any thoughts as to why they were the only ones there beyond "that's weird," I think it's clear that she wanted to discuss the content of the play in that moment (if nothing else because of how it portrays princeliness as a very specific thing that Utena doesn't really live up to) and Akio very much wanted to avoid doing so. The play is maybe the closest she's gotten to twigging that something off is happening, so you may be right there. I wasn't directly trying to contradict you, but that and other things got me thinking about Utena's role in the abuse which can be easily overlooked. It's treated as a kind of running joke in the show that Utena completely misses all the signs that things are wrong around her or wildly misses the point (like when her reaction to the play about Juri being gay is "just don't be gay"  ) but just like how a lot of predatory behavior gets excused as "just kidding" it actually is something serious when you actually think about how hurtful her innocent cruelty can be.
Nephthys fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Nov 15, 2023 |
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Nov 15, 2023 02:09
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chrome line posted:Touga finds Utena on the staircase with Wakaba, who remembers the end of the first arc and is still mad. Touga delivers a pair of earrings "from the chairman" and starts fiddling with his carrot. Utena is pleased by the gift, but still knows what she likes and doesn't in clothes. Wakaba forces them on her anyways, and shortly thereafter combos her. Touga gets horny and puts the carrot on his forehead in a piece of symbolism so blatant I feel foolish for even talking about it, and asks her out. It breaks my heart that Wakaba is so worried about Utena being assaulted by Touga (telling her to avoid being alone with him) but was so excited to see Akio's gift. Ugh, reading your posts has really highlighted how often Wakaba has unwittingly helped Akio predate on Utena. Poor girl just wants to have fun with some harmless crushes and doesn't know what she's doing. Also count me as someone who has never given a poo poo about Touga or Saionji and never will. I get that every character has their own "coffin" so to speak but their brand of misogyny just isn't something I can really forgive or forget. gently caress em.
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Nov 18, 2023 23:15
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The best Chu-Chu scene is when they're taking a photo and Akio tries to get handsy with Utena, only for "Chu-Chu" to misbehave prompting Anthy to have to get him and then conspicuously stand in between Akio and Utena when she gets back. I love the subtle passive-aggression from Anthy. That ending sure is something huh? Most people never expect the finale to have so many twists baked in. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Nov 20, 2023 |
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Nov 20, 2023 17:15
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chrome line posted:Akio continues to be the biggest piece of poo poo, saying it's not his fault Anthy's in pain as they drive, it's the world. The world isn't the one currently sexually assaulting her! We see the swords, so we're reminded that she is in fact in pain because of the world, but that doesn't mean Akio isn't at fault as well! As much as I loath Akio, and oh how I do, and generally just never want to think about him at all it does occur to me that the reason he resents Anthy so much and is so hostile towards her when they're alone is that from his perspective (finale)he was someone who had real power which was stripped from him by Anthy, who has all of the "real" (ie magical) power in the relationship. He maintains control of their relationship in a sense because she allows him to. She could crush him in an instant if she wanted to and if she decides to sever the emotional bond that he's exploiting then he just becomes a sad, pathetic afterthought to her. I suspect he's probably terrified of this and why he freaks out whenever he see's her happy with Utena. chrome line posted:Utena and Anthy discuss the future over tea and cookies. Perhaps Anthy will become a florist! Did you know the Borgia family used cantarella poison? How do the cookies taste? After a brief pause Utena continues eating the cookie, trusting Anthy and cutting through the subtext with the subtlety of a bull in a china shop by saying "I put poison in your tea." The very quiet music starts skipping at this point, with a large red rose spinning away. This time red clearly means danger, stop, go away. They agree the other's poisons are delicious and agree they should still be together in 10 years, drinking tea like they do now. The video is skipping as well. Utena promises they'll be together having a good time in 10 years, trying to will it into existence. They hold hands and Anthy agrees. They know they've been harming each other and will harm each other but will do their bests to continue regardless. I love this scene so much. This scene is often discussed in how to interpret the section where they say they will meet again in 10 years and then the scene continues but neither of them in the room anymore even though they keep talking. Personally I think it's an ironic hint that neither of them are actually there because Ohtori Academy isn't a real place and Anthy is still in her coffin but I'd be interested if someone else has a more thematic or different explanation.
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Nov 23, 2023 12:25
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Now that everyone has I believe finished the series, here's the thing I mentioned that I only found out while researching for this thread. Apparently in the official art book for this series they show an image of Juri and Shiori after the series is over and Utena and Anthy have left: So it does seem that they do get together at some point or are at least are moving towards that. I like the reversal that Shiori is now the one with the locket, pining after Juri but its out in the open instead of hidden. Just from looking at them you can see that they look much more healthy in their relationship.
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Nov 29, 2023 13:56
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Nevil Maskelyne posted:juri and shiori don't exist after the series ends, whatever happens to them is up to the reader regardless no they smooch
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Nov 29, 2023 15:33
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So I take it no-one wants to talk about the movie because of how much it sucks, huh? I understand.
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Dec 1, 2023 16:32
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I was half joking when I said that it sucks but honestly, I'm not a huge fan. It's fine I guess but it's hard for me to not be disappointed by the wasted opportunity. Sure, you can read it as a continuation of the story through a retelling but you could have just... continued the story. In a way that wasn't just retelling the same plot again but shorter, worse and more incoherently. Or do something different. I'm sure there were more stories you could have told that would have been more interesting than this. And I just don't like the idea that Utena didn't get out at the end of the series. It makes the original ending worse for me and makes the mechanics of how the world work more arbitrary and confusing than it already was. This version of the end was also just worse. I'm gonna be the grump and say that I don't like the loving cars. It's too silly. Utena can be silly, but it knew when to be serious and the movie doesn't. And no Nanami? Unforgivable. Also gently caress Touga, I refuse to feel bad about him in any version of the story. 
Nephthys fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 3, 2023 01:47
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So something I've been wanting to highlight since this thread began is how brilliant I think the first season is at giving you information about the greater mysteries of the show without you realising because at that point you still aren't really sure of how seriously to take anything or how deeply you should be looking at things. For example, on a rewatch it is very clear that Anthy intentionally gets Miki to duel Utena by playing the song from his childhood right at the point where it seems like he would never want to duel. When you're first watching it you probably assume it's a coincidence because Anthy is so passive and how could she possibly have known about that song and why would she want Miki to duel? But when you rewatch it's obvious what she's doing. She does much the same thing with Juri by "co-incidentally" offering her a flower in an identical way to how Shiori once did. This foreshadows both that she's an active participant in the dueling game and that she has access to ways to know these things about the characters supernaturally. The second season gets more overt with it like when she gets Wakaba to duel by wearing the hair-clip Saoinji made in front of her. It's a clear case of antagonism but you can still kind of excuse it as unintentional up until the reveal that Anthy has been Mamiya the whole time. But I think the best example of the show showing you something without you realising it is with the Nanami episodes. Because lets be clear, every single funny Nanami episode is actually about Anthy loving with Nanami using magic. Anthy is straight up using magic in every one of those episodes. She foils all of Nanami plans to humiliate her in the first one, she intentionally switches bodies with Utena and sends Nanami to India*, she turns Nanami into a cow and she makes Nanami think she's laid an egg. All just to gently caress with her. But because it's all played out as a joke and Anthy is so good at pretended to be passive you don't seriously put it together that this is a real bit of foreshadowing and a reveal that Anthy is much more powerful and has much more agency than she is pretending to have. I really do think this is a brilliant bit of writing and a clever way to slip some clues under the audiences guard. There are a lot more examples of stuff like this in the show so any first-timers really should consider a rewatch at some point because it's great picking up on this stuff. Btw I favor a quite realist view of the show as you can tell. * BTW a really cool detail is that when Nanami is going to India it's very stylised but you can see that her plane is taking off from inside the campus, which also foreshadows that the Academy itself is essentially a weird pocket-dimension that doesn't really exist in the real world. The "India" she visits is probably also this. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 16:14
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Lady Radia posted:lmao Lol, well a bit of a problem with talking about this show is how much you consider any of it to actually be happening. We've seen the idea brought up in the thread that all of this is just an allegory for Anthy's own self-actualization and I think a lot of people do believe that the series is partially symbolism and the mechanics of what's happening aren't relevant. I prefer to think that the events in the series are real, in the sense that Anthy and Dios were real supernatural beings and after Anthy sealed Dios' power she created the school as a sort of separate reality and on Akio's behalf drew in these people burdened by their pasts to be duelists that he would use to try to regain the power of Dios. So instead of putting something down to symbolism or stylisation, I try to think of it as "Anthy doing it with magic". I think this is pretty internally consistent with the show. The power of Dios is an important plot element. We do see that magic is real in the show, in serious non-stylised moments. The school is presented as being separate from reality which is why Mikage and Utena both "graduate" when they let go of their self-harming ideals and essentially cease to exist in the school. I think it's cool to think about this stuff on top of what everything means in terms of the characters themselves. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Dec 14, 2023 |
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Dec 14, 2023 21:40
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Maera Sior posted:Also, it only started because Nanami (re)traumatized Anthy back in episode 3. Although I do think after a few rounds of it Anthy is just a bully gaslighting Nanami. I suspect that Anthy does dislike Nanami, that bit with the saw is the closest Anthy ever gets to outright aggression. I doubt she cares about Nanami's bullying enough to want revenge but Nanami's ignorant crush on her brother probably rubs Anthy the wrong way. Or it might just be the case that bullying Nanami is really funny.
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Dec 14, 2023 23:24
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