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Don't Ask posted:Civilians were intentionally murdered and abducted, elderly and children alike. They were targeted at home, outside, in their cars, at a music festival, in the fields, and everywhere they could be. Those that were able to lock themselves in a safe room were burned out. Dozens if not hundreds were abducted, including elderly grandmothers and infants. I think it's entirely valid to ask people to wait a bit before they get completely furious since a ton of ostensibly well-reported things from the first days have turned out to be rehashed footage/pictures from other events(I believe one particularly gruesome bit about pregnant women getting hacked apart turned out to be using "evidence" from Nicaragua that was about a decade old), re-used stories with just the names and locations swapped out or entirely made up. Almost certainly some bad poo poo has happened, but considering the very strong narrative being pushed about "the Palestinians are inhuman animals, it's time to wipe them all out," I think that it's worth it to take reporting that amplifies how savage Hamas are, with a grain of salt. ThisIsJohnWayne posted:No one is arguing over what hamas did, or what they are. We are arguing over the israeli response. And just what + how much response can be justified, because we're all scared about more innocents getting killed since there's so many fucks around who don't give any Yeah, Hamas are not the good guys in this, but the IDF response seems to be about as non-discriminatory as the Hamas attack in the first place. Shutting off water to the entire Gaza strip, even if you ignore everything else, is targeting literal millions of civilians. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-defense-minister-human-animals-gaza-palestine_n_6524220ae4b09f4b8d412e0a Israeli government ministers are calling for outright starving the entire Gaza strip. Rather than causing some sort of introspection and going: "Perhaps our dehumanization of an entire population, our policy of stealing their land and turning them into literal prisoners, causes some of them to lose their hope and dream only of hurting those they perceive as having hurt them." it instead seems to have caused a response of: "Let's see if we can finish them off properly this time."
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Oct 12, 2023 14:45
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Bored As gently caress posted:There is no good side in this conflict. At all. But I dont think equivocating the two is right. One is causing civilian death as a side effect and consequence. The other is purposefully causing civilian death with the express purpose of terrorizing a population. No one on the Palestinian side would be fighting if Israel hadn't stolen their land, firstly. Secondly, while Israel may not be attempting to kill Palestinians militarily most of the time, they do absolutely limit their access to food, water, power and medical supplies for the sake of a slow genocide that primarily affects civilians. Israel is absolutely causing shitloads of intentional civilian Palestinian deaths. Israeli troops also blast journalists reporting on their crimes blatantly and in cases like kids throwing rocks, decide to open fire with live ammo rather than just, say, backing off. You cannot say that Israel does not as a policy kill and injure Palestinian civilians, or at the very least display an extremely blatant disregard for their wellbeing. https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ You've also got the issue that while media reporting from most sources would love to make it feel like the damage done to the two sides is roughly equivalent, or perhaps even worse for the Israelis, the truth is that both deaths and injuries are outsized concentrated among the Palestinians(note the linked statistics, sourced from the UN.). So really, I feel it very difficult to believe a narrative that Israel is desperately trying to avoid civilian casualties and yet are forced into them by dastardly Hamas tactics. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties The raw data is here if you'd like to look at it. Bored As gently caress posted:This by no means excuses the cases where the Israelis actually do gun down civilians, especially the illegal "settlers". But those cases seem to be the exception, whereas civilians killed in air strikes seem to be the majority of the cases of civilians dying on the Palestinian side. Not to mention that settler violence seems to be, if not outright officially condoned, more or less tolerated and never really results in any punishments that I'm aware of. You don't see the IDF rolling out to protect Palestinians against settler paramilitary gangs.
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Oct 12, 2023 16:35
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Hannibal Rex posted:https://x.com/Nrg8000/status/1714535497958334678?s=20 I've found that even OSINT'ers need to be taken with a bucketful of salt in this case, even ones that have been doing very reliable and well-researched work on other conflicts have jumped headfirst into ideologically motivated full support for extremely poorly sourced poo poo coming out of this conflict. So even if it's your favourite poster's take, I'd let any of it cook for a week before coming to a conclusion. This one seems legit, but I remember that for most of yesterday even the most well-regarded OSINT'ers were reposting footage from years ago as evidence of one side or the other being right.
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Oct 18, 2023 13:44
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https://twitter.com/nytimesworld/status/1716541269718061301quote:Breaking News: Hamas released two hostages, the Red Cross confirmed. They are the second pair of hostages released by the group in recent days. As a bright note, at least it sounds like Hamas is releasing some of their hostages despite Israel reportedly playing hard ball on the matter. I recall one of the stated Hamas war goals was to use all those hostages to secure the release of a lot of prisoners held by the Israelis, but as far as I can tell there's been no reporting on it being a hostage/prisoner exchange. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/23/hamas-releases-two-women-held-hostage-after-egyptian-qatari-diplomacy quote:Hamas releases two women held hostage after Egyptian-Qatari diplomacy With both sides having an image to keep up, it's hard to tell whether it was a genuine humanitarian release or a release in exchange for something(prisoners, humanitarian support) and Israel just wasn't willing to pay the price for a couple more freed hostages, though I lean towards the latter since the other two hostages were apparently the two older womens' husbands and thus in the same age category, and you'd figure that if it was a "humanitarian and health grounds"-reason, they'd have fallen under the same umbrella.
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Oct 24, 2023 00:11
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notwithoutmyanus posted:I think the situation is clear and the optics for Israel suck as they're mostly perpetuating this harm, to harm at this point. I don't really think Israel cares about the optics much. I think it's been proven that few major governments will actually care beyond words and considering that only ~9% of the Israeli popular vote went to parties not in favour of "business as usual" during the last elections, most Israeli voters seem to not mind the general levels of cruelty either or want them to be higher. The only part of it I would imagine moves the Israeli government, appearance-wise, is recovering hostages without being seen as capitulating too hard to any Hamas demands, to recover some of their perception as being tough and competent at security. So they're going to try to recover hostages and trumpet that part, while downplaying any reporting of what they traded for those hostages if it was part of a trade.
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Oct 24, 2023 09:27
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Borscht posted:I agree with you on first steps but I think you’re underestimating how deep the hatred of Jews goes in the Levant. This same story has played itself out thousands of times already but with swords and sticks instead of precision guided munitions and ultralights. I'm going to vehemently disagree here. Even if you ignore the actual history of the conflict, when there's this huge a power disparity and the Palestinians have absolutely tried every peaceful way to resolve things, the responsibility for ceasing the violence is entirely with the Israelis. Now, if Israel gave all the stolen land back, put some IDF personnel, politicians and settlers in war crimes courts for what they've done, paid some reparations to get the Palestinians back on their feet, and the Palestinians still lobbed rockets at them? Yes, I'd agree, equal blame on both sides. But that's not where things stand.
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Oct 27, 2023 11:27
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https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1829092/Erdogan-Turkey-Israel-war-Gazaquote:Turkey's president appears to have threatened to intervene in Gaza in an impassioned speech at a pro-Palestine rally this evening. On the one hand, I'm happy that someone is actually standing up for the Palestinians and he's saying a lot of true things. On the other hand, Turkey has so many other war crimes to their name that I was neither expecting them nor given any particular feeling that they'd lessen the war crimes going on. On the third mutant hand growing out of my abdomen, there's no way he's serious, right? I mean he's an unstable weirdo, but there's not a chance in hell and this just has to be blowhard bullshit for domestic consumption... right?
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Oct 28, 2023 23:20
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Laughing Zealot posted:It can't be a good sign for the Israeli army that they've barely started to operate in Gaza and already there are 17 soldiers dead. I don't think I'd call 17 casualties in a week of attacking a built-up urban area with entrenched enemies particularly bad, at least compared with other catastrophes in the history of urban warfare. But Jesus it's some grim, Russians-in-Grozny images coming out of there, videos of Israeli tanks obliterating civilian cars just trying to get away from the fighting, that sort of thing. The IDF are in full warcrimes mode and I'm incredibly disappointed in any government that "stands by Israel" with the "Israel has a right to defend itself"-trash as an excuse for not condemning every second of this.
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Nov 2, 2023 17:07
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Grand Fromage posted:I would agree polling right now isn't very useful but I'd guess there's still a solid majority support for Israel. Majority probably don't pay attention to news at all, then the ones who do mostly get it from... I don't even know. Do people watch TV news, other than the olds watching Fox? "Support for Israel" does depend a bit on what you define it as and what polls you're looking at, for instance, every poll I see has a narrow to large majority in favour of a ceasefire and humanitarian support for Palestinians, https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2023/10/19/voters-agree-the-us-should-call-for-a-ceasefire-and-de-escalation-of-violence-in-gaza Just as the first example I could google up. https://news.gallup.com/poll/472070/democrats-sympathies-middle-east-shift-palestinians.aspx But overall, yeah, support for Israel in the US seems to be slimming but still present.
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Nov 6, 2023 11:21
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:There's a, what must by now be a classical observation, about when Israeli schoolchildren do the specific holocaust course, half of the children walk away with the lesson being "this must never happen again" and the other half with "this must never happen again to us". Considering how few votes "let's not oppress the Palestinians and maybe give them back some of their stuff"-parties get in Israel, I think that "half" is an overly generous split.
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Nov 7, 2023 16:23
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Lum_ posted:Benny Gantz, who effectively is running the war, yesterday told an Israeli from the border region who asked "will I see the ocean from my house when the war is over" explicitly no, at the end of the day there will still be a Gaza with Gazans in it. I mean half of Gaza more or less no longer has Gazans in it, and even if they move back after the war, their homes have been levelled by the IDF and looted by settlers. So in this case I don't think it's unreasonable to look at the actions of Israel and go "lol, lmao" at any statements to the contrary.
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Nov 7, 2023 17:23
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Lum_ posted:Curious who you think is looting bombed out ruins in a very active urban war zone. I'm trying to track it down, but not long after the start of the fighting there were some videos of Israeli settlers looting Palestinian farms(even to the extent of stripping the olive trees, what the gently caress) after the Palestinians had cleared out to not get caught in the fighting, and when they hadn't cleared out, shooting anyone who objected. It might have been from an earlier conflict, admittedly, but the Gaza Strip doesn't just have urban zones, so it's plausible. https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/6/our-hearts-burn-gazas-olive-farmers-say-israel-war-destroys-harvest
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Nov 7, 2023 20:05
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ZombieApostate posted:https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean I'd say you could argue it's a "call for the destruction of Israel" in the sense that any real justice for the Palestinians will not have Israel with its current defacto borders and territory, but not a "call for the destruction of Israel" in the sense that it necessarily requires the death of Israelis and the total cessation of Israel as a state.
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Nov 8, 2023 13:47
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Lum_ posted:The Palestinian right of return has been an issue in I/P negotiations for 50 years now. And unlike the Jewish diaspora, the majority of Palestinians are still refugees with limited to no rights whatsoever in their host countries. There is no solution the Palestinian side will agree to that does not take their fate into account, and justifiably so. Why would Hamas necessarily be in charge in a free, presumably multi-party democracy? Hell, as we've seen from a variety of sources, Hamas only has the power it does due to Israeli meddling.
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Nov 8, 2023 22:45
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Lum_ posted:Hamas wins elections when they happen. (They don’t happen that often.) I mean, the Jewish population would also have voting rights and could vote for their own parties, Fatah also still exists. So, yes, if Hamas had like a 50+% majority and could just do whatever they liked, they could banish all the Jewish citizens into the sea. And then there's the whole question of whether Hamas would still have any draw, as a party, if the fight for freedom and justice was won. At the moment I would wager the reason they have a strong draw on Palestinian people is because after decades of injustice, they are promising that they will bring justice, or at the very least, revenge.
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Nov 8, 2023 23:07
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Lum_ posted:Polling in the West Bank consistently shows a rejection of the two-state solution, and support for armed resistance. I mean, so far peaceful means have only gotten them slow genocide and the proposed two-state solution still leaves them boxed into two small exclaves in what used to be their homeland prior to the British loving around. I don't think it speaks so much to the inherent hostility of the Palestinians as it does their basic ability to recognize that a given solution is massively unfair and that a method has failed to work for them for decades. I would be amazed to see group of people who, after being treated like the Palestinians have, didn't demand a better deal and had zero faith in negotiating with their bully.
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Nov 9, 2023 03:45
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https://www.politico.eu/article/belgium-deputy-pm-petra-de-sutter-sanction-israel-over-war-gaza/quote:Petra De Sutter, Belgium’s deputy prime minister from the Greens, called on the country’s government to sanction Israel on Wednesday. “It is time for sanctions against Israel. The bombing is inhumane,” she posted on X, formerly Twitter. “While war crimes are being committed in Gaza, Israel ignores the international demand for a cease-fire.”
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Nov 9, 2023 11:45
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Jarmak posted:Piggy backing on this, some of y'all need to think back to just how much 9/11 broke brains and caused US politics to go insane for the better part of a decade. This attack was arguably much worse than 9/11 when it comes to psychological effect. The body count is not as high but the entire country has a population comparable to New York City. Also, the killings weren't from a single event but drawn out via direct personal violence, some of which carried shocking cruelty/brutality. I think one notable big difference here is that there really isn't anything new about what Israel is doing here, it's just a matter of scale. Israel was already committing the same crimes without the fuse of a major atrocity to set them off.
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Nov 9, 2023 17:17
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Discussion Quorum posted:Being fair here, most of the folks who think the rave massacre was "lol, lmao" (and/or a valid military raid because nearly every young Israeli is an IDF reservist) are... located elsewhere on this website. If I was to give people some benefit of the doubt, rather than just considering them to be utter ghouls, I could see a disregard towards the lives of Israeli settler civilians from the logic that they are directly choosing to benefit from the IDF's crimes(and that if they weren't choosing to move in and settle on the ruins of Palestinian homes, many of those crimes might not happen at all) and that many of them do pick up guns and go commit some war crimes in their spare time. But like, obviously, while they're partying out in some backlot, it's impossible to tell who's just visiting and who shoots at local Palestinians for sport, and I doubt the Hamas fighters involved stopped to check if anyone had an outstanding ICC warrant before opening fire. So no, I don't think a bunch of teens getting gunned down in the desert is good. Beefeater1980 posted:I’m a believer in people loving up more than a believer in genius strategists. So while it’s possible that someone in a Hamas bunker (or more realistically, living a pleasant life somewhere far from Gaza) planned all this out, I find it more likely that there was an opportunistic raid which intended to do a little light butchery of civilian families on the side but not at the kind of scale that occurred, and the response has shocked them (also the very predictable unwillingness of the neighbours to intervene). Israel also doesn’t really have an off ramp now, which is presumably why the US and UN seem to be trying to build one. Just people in power loving up and trying to avoid consequences, over and over again. If you believe the Hamas statements, which you may disregard as their trying to get bombed less, when they knocked holes in the fences, apparently a bunch of minor groups and unaffiliated Palestinians just out for revenge made their move as well, which, if true, might've contributed to the "got out of hand"-situation.
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Nov 10, 2023 01:22
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Vahakyla posted:Also, clashes and disagreements did not start at the birth of Israel. My understanding is it started pretty much the moment the British created the entity of "Mandatory Palestine" and promptly hosed it all up because one of the guys in charge was a super Zionist and thought a good response to Arabs not liking his ideas and being upset was to create the "Special Night Squads." quote:The military historian Hew Strachan has described the tactics Wingate employed as a form of state terrorism,[5] and its mode of operation eventually to lead to allegations that Wingate had effectively organized these nights squads into Jewish 'murder gangs' or 'death squads'.[6][5] According to Israeli military historian Martin van Creveld, their training included "how to kill without compunction, how to interrogate prisoners by shooting every tenth man to make the rest talk; and how to deter future terrorists by pushing the heads of captured ones into pools of oil and then freeing them to tell the story".[7] So, uh, yeah, the region we now call Israel and Palestine was ultra hosed up well before WWII even got into swing.
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Nov 10, 2023 02:12
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Proud Christian Mom posted:like im all about blaming the british as much as possible but not of that matters because today, right now, one party can end all this and it has emphatically not only chosen not to do so, but continually make it worse. Oh, trust me, it's in no way meant to reduce any of Israel's responsiblity for the situation, that was not the impression I wanted to give.
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Nov 10, 2023 02:26
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psydude posted:At the same time, the widely shared video of an Israeli airstrike hitting what is quite obviously a munitions cache next to the hospital is being reported in major news outlets (including the Guardian) without that important context. Personally I don't really think that context matters. If it's right next to a hospital that's actively in use by civilians you don't loving bomb it unless you're an rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 10, 2023 18:04
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Cugel the Clever posted:no gunmen stalk their streets looking for the blood of innocents. I mean this one is kind of a stretch considering Settler-on-Palestinian violence and how IDF operations in Palestinian territory semi-regularly blast a bunch of bystanders like Al Jazeera journalists.
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Nov 11, 2023 18:38
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https://twitter.com/IrishUnity/status/1723442795162009982quote:the head of Sinn Fein who is likely to become the next leader of Ireland calls on the government to expel the Israeli ambassador and charge their genocidal regime with war crimes
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Nov 13, 2023 20:41
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Al-Saqr posted:By the way this is what israel claimed they'd find today and its been 20 hours and theyve yet to produce proof of this:- It's somehow so insane a post that even the usual batch of bluechecks in the replies that will cheerlead any dumbshit take are calling it out as idiotic.
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Nov 15, 2023 16:49
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https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1725230439307128995 The IDF is now showing footage of what they claim is the entrance to the mythical Hamas tunnels under the hospital. https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-israel-build-bunker-under-shifa-hospital-1844107 Though even if that was actually filmed at Al-Shifa, there appears to be a second explanation: That the Israelis built an underground bunker there themselves about four decades ago. Of course, just because there's a hole in the ground doesn't mean it's full of sinister Hamas plots, so we'll probably have to wait a few days before the IDF has filled it up with ISIS banners, copies of Mein Kampf and a diary detailing a minute-by-minute plan to butcher civilians.
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Nov 16, 2023 21:36
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Bored As gently caress posted:What the gently caress? Hamas filmed themselves doing it. There's gory horrible videos all out there for you to see full of dead and kidnapped civilians. Horrible videos, poo poo you can't unsee. Have you completely missed them? I suspect it's related to some of the more extreme statements like "Hamas beheaded Israeli babies" and several horrible pieces of footage/photos(like atrocities against pregnant women) that turned out to actually be footage from other awful events, unrelated to Hamas or Israel, or woven from whole cloth. So I don't think they're saying every dead Israeli from the 7th of October was made up.
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Nov 16, 2023 22:34
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psydude posted:There's literal footage of them cutting open a pregnant woman and throwing her fetus on the ground and stomping on it. Or do you think that's some kind of IDF production as well. https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/adl-debunk-myths-and-false-narratives-about-israel-hamas-war quote:FALSE NARRATIVE: Video shows Hamas killing pregnant woman and unborn child I think when even the ADL is saying it's bullshit, it's bullshit.
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Nov 16, 2023 22:54
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Discussion Quorum posted:e: to clarify, nobody is claiming that 10/7 didn't happen, but there is a concerted narrative effort that denies Hamas/PIJ committed murder and other atrocities against civilians I think to some extent it's less "my side must be good, your side must be lying" and more "holy poo poo the IDF has provably made up so much patently insane poo poo that all of their claims are automatically suspect from here on out, barring a preponderance of evidence from other actors.", at least from anyone who isn't a raving lunatic.
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Nov 17, 2023 02:36
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Al-Saqr posted:Ok i will only post aljazeera from here on out 👍 Unironically Al Jazeera is usually a pretty solid news source, though my God they seem to have weaponized bad editorials a lot of the time.
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Nov 20, 2023 10:46
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https://twitter.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1726970021744984282quote:Israel's Minister of Communications calls on the IDF to cut off the foreskins of Hamas fighters as revenge, as David did with the Philistines in the Tanakh. https://twitter.com/shlomo_karhi/status/1725504217148797065 According to Google Translate, this appears to be a correct translation, though I couldn't tell you how good Google Translate is at dealing with Hebrew, I imagine it isn't bad enough to make that up. quote:David added a hundred Philistine foreskins as revenge for plugging the wells with dirt. Our fighters, who went to war for the house and to take revenge for the terrible massacre carried out by the Nazi terrorists, will cover them in their tunnels with dirt, and will return to peace with the abductees in AZ, only after they have cut off all these cursed foreskins. I believe that unless someone hijacked his account or something, this calls for a great big "what the gently caress."
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Nov 21, 2023 21:33
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Platystemon posted:I’m not an expert on local practices, but why would one think that they’re not circumcised already? Honestly I wanted someone else to have fun with that one because I was too flabbergasted to come up with a joke about it.
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Nov 21, 2023 21:47
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https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-11-21-2023-39f5ae0bdb4e32f0e69115aa43446132 Looks like Israel finally agreed to a temporary cease fire in exchange about a fifth of Hamas' hostages.
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Nov 22, 2023 04:28
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Beefeater1980 posted:why did they expand into Wampanoag lands instead of spreading out, which would surely have been easier and less likely to end up dead from your former buddies. The Wampanoag, not being morons and knowing the land, had probably settled into some rich, fertile and sheltered areas... exactly the ideal spots that the colonists would also have wanted to settle in.
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Nov 23, 2023 18:48
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psydude posted:regions where openly flouting one's anti-Semitism isn't as taboo as it is in the West. I think the issue is conflating anyone's dislike for Israel, which is generally anti-Zionism, with anti-Semitism. Sure, there are some(probably a lot) of anti-Semites that would like to see Israel reduced to rubble, but I would wager that most people's issues with Israel are completely unrelated to Israel being Jewish. I, personally, loving hate Israel as a country, I loathe their government, I think that any state they have a "right" to exist in would be very different from the current one with significantly changed borders, I think Netanyahu should be burning in Hell next to Kissinger and Thatcher and I generally take any statement they make with enough salt that the Dead Sea would be jealous. This has nothing to do with Israel being Jewish and everything to do with the way it was founded, the way they treat minorities(especially Palestinians) and their settler projects. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think it's probably the same for 99% of people on these forums with an intense distrust/dislike of Israel. And even so... I believed pretty much everything the Israeli government said about the 7th of October immediately after it happened, but then one by one, all of the most extreme and absurd things they said were either outright disproven or turned out to have a suspicious lack of evidence, which ended up making even the more prosaic things start to be untrustworthy. If they'd lie about beheaded babies for sympathy and support, for instance, why would they not lie about the extent of civilian casualties? Sure, civilians did die, that much is hard to dispute, but can I trust the numbers and situations presented by the Israeli government and IDF? Hell no. Yes, some people go even farther and dispute the existence of the narrative at all. I think that's wrong, but I don't think it makes them anti-Semites, I just think it means they have poor judgment/source critique and are very, very, very loving tired of Israel's zionist bullshit.
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Nov 30, 2023 12:00
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psydude posted:The kind of people who live in the kibbutzes (not sure of the plural there) and constituted an overwhelming majority of the people who were killed and kidnapped have (generally) historically been very opposed to Netanyahu and other hardliners and have favored a more open and positive approach to relations with Palestine. I'm not saying this necessarily isn't right, but it seems wrong, considering that they all seem like prime beneficiaries of land being stolen from the Palestinians, if there's any group that would have something to lose in a fair and equitable settlement with the Palestinians that returns their home to them in a meaningful way, it'd be those who live in Kibbutzes, which isn't even getting into how Kibbutzes have absolutely been historically used to realize land grabs pretty much since the founding of Israel.
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Nov 30, 2023 22:49
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psydude posted:I think you're confusing settlements (of the "Israeli Settler" variety) with the Kibbutzes. Kibbutzes are just communes and have traditionally attracted left-leaning Israelis in the same way that communal living has attracted like-minded folk around the world. I guess settlements like those in the West Bank could also be Kibbutzes, but just because a community is a Kibbutz doesn't mean it's on stolen Palestinian land. Strongly depends on what you define as "stolen Palestinian land." If you look at the 1967 borders and say "this is a fair and equitable distribution of land, Israel deserves this." then sure, the Kibbutzes are not on stolen Palestinian land, and we would proceed to greatly disagree on the matter. Also several of them are in the occupied West Bank, which makes it even more clear cut.
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Dec 1, 2023 00:14
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knox_harrington posted:You've repeatedly almost said you don't think Israel should exist as a country, which I think is the fundamental disagreement here. Perhaps I've repeatedly almost said it, because it's not actually what I've said? Trust me when I say that if I had some sort of genuinely insane take, I would spell it out, not hint at it. I'm not supportive of ethnic cleansing of Israelis from the region, but supporting the existence of Israel with its current borders is like supporting Russian land grabs in the Donbas, just a notably older injustice that a lot of people have grown to accept. It may be that the only lasting solution involves some sort of acceptance of it, but that doesn't mean I'll ever regard it as fair, just or correct. psydude posted:Given that the movement dates to before World War I (i.e. even before the British took over), and many (including apparently some of those around Gaza) were formed in the 20s and 30s, I'm still not sure it's as simple as that, either. Zionism was alive and well before WWI, they're not projects I'll ever be choosing to view as "left-wing" or progressive in any sense, especially considering that a good number of the later Kibbutzes were backed by the IDF, clearly making them important to the right-wing state's national projects. BrutalistMcDonalds posted:The Palestinian cause seems to lack something here. It's a cause. A dream or aspiration. But if there's a concrete program with material demands like other revolutionary movements in our recent past -- with a recognized leader and spokesman -- of the kind that the ANC in South Africa had in the 1950s, I haven't seen one. I think you're generally going to get that because their situation is so much more grim than South Africa. Anyone who aimed towards a clear and concrete goal, like a two-state solution centered around the 1967 borders, was completely discredited(for instance Fatah and the PA by collaborating massively with Israel) and Israel showed every sign that they did not actually care about that. So I think at that point, when the other party, Israel, has indicated with all words and actions, that a concrete, diplomatic solution will never be accepted, that anything signed and agreed on will be ignored, and that it will only end when all the Palestinians are dead, a lot of Palestinians go: "Well, in that case, we can clearly never co-exist with you." and end up supporting a maximalist program like Hamas' publicly stated "we need to destroy Israel." Because by all indications from Israel and the global community at large, that's the only point at which they'll ever be safe in their homes. So in my opinion, you can demand these things from the Palestinians and their organizations when there's even the faintest sign that Israel and various international partners and stakeholders in the situation would give a gently caress about it, rather than just sighing and wagging their finger at Israel when they build the latest round of internationally condemned and illegal settlements, then going back to trading with them as usual. You had your clear goals and strong, single leader in Arafat back in the 1990's, but even when they got 99% of what they wanted, Israel was unwilling to make even the slightest compromise necessary to make it more palatable to Arafat's domestic audience, didn't implement a bunch of what was agreed on completely, and rolled back a good deal of it the first time they saw an excuse to. Predictably, this sort of thing lead to the rise of the "dream-less" factions that couldn't see any future other than war and murder... because that's what Israel had shown them was all that was ever going to be on the menu. Meanwhile, in actual news contributing to the thread? https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...ths-to-win-war/ quote:Blinken: You can’t operate in southern Gaza in the way you did in the north. There are two million Palestinians there. You need to evacuate fewer people from their homes, be more accurate in the attacks, not hit UN facilities, and ensure that there are enough protected areas [for civilians]. And if not? Then not to attack where there is a civilian population. What is your system of operation? Something vaguely approaching "hey, please stop the war crimes or else!" from the US to Israel.
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Dec 1, 2023 10:15
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BUUNNI posted:Didn't they also like literally sterilize Ethiopian Jews lol https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-women-given-contraceptives-israel They absolutely did! And so much more! quote:More than 50,000 Ethiopian Jews have immigrated to Israel in the past decade. The fast-growing community has struggled against bias. In 1996, thousands rioted when it was discovered that the Israeli health ministry had destroyed all stocks of blood donated by Ethiopians on the grounds that it might be contaminated with HIV.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:34
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knox_harrington posted:That is obviously very uncool but I think you need to look up what "sterilisation" means. I would argue that the difference between "a number of procedures which would have continued indefinitely if no one had raised the alarm" and "a single procedure of permanent duration" is vanishingly small.
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Dec 2, 2023 21:13
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