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The 2023 Observer Hall of fame ballots are out. There has been some changes in voting this year with a wrestler still needing to get 60 percent of the votes from you region to get in but being limited in the votes you can make per category instead of a hard cap on votes (Last year was 10 wrestlers max and 5 non wrestlers). You can vote 8 people for US/Canada Historical, US/Canada modern has 5 max, Japan has 3, Mexico has 3, rest of the world has 4 and non-wrestler has six votes max. The changes are based of the baseball hall of fame modern voting which may not be the best hall to copy but...well all Hall's of fame have issues On the ballot this year are: US/Canada Historical Ole Anderson, Bob Armstrong, Blanchard & Arn Anderson with J.J. Dillon, Jack & Jerry Brisco, The British Bulldogs (Dynamite Kid & Davey Boy Smith), June Byers, Wild Bull Curry, Junkyard Dog, Cowboy Bob Ellis, Pampero Firpo, Black Gordman & Great Goliath, Archie (Mongolian Stomper) Gouldie, Hart Foundation (Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart), Sputnik Monroe, The Texas Outlaws (Dusty Rhodes & Dick Murdoch), Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez, Johnny Rougeau, Iron Sheik, Tiger Jeet Singh, Slaughter, Ricky Steamboat & Jay Youngblood, Mad Dog & Butcher Vachon, The Von Brauners with Saul Weingeroff and Kevin & Kerry & David Von Erich. US/Canada Modern Mark & Jay Briscoe, Young Bucks, Edge/Adam Copeland, Bill Goldberg, Matt & Jeff Hardy, Becky Lynch, Moxley, Kevin Nash & Scott Hall, Paul Orndorff, Randy Orton, Rollins, C.M. Punk, Reigns, Trish Stratus and Rick & Scott Steiner. Japan The Beauty Pair (Jackie Sato & Maki Ueda), Cima, Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, Hayabusa, Antonio Inoki & Seiji Sakaguchi, Tomohiro Ishii, Meiko Satomura, Shingo Takagi and Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada. Mexico Angel Blanco & Dr. Wagner, Sangre Chicana, Los Hermanos Dinamita (Cien Caras & Mascara Ano 2000 & Universo 2000), Dorrell Dixon, Pirata Moran, Blue Panther, El Hijo del Santo & Octagon, La Parka AAA (not LA Park who was already vote in) and Huracan Ramirez. Rest of the world Spyros Arion, Big Daddy, Dominic DeNucci, Billy Joyce, George Kidd, Killer Karl Kox, Mike Marino, Nagasaki, Pallo, The Royal Brothers (Bert Royal & Vic Faulkner), Johnny Saint, Adrian Street, Jose Tarres and Otto Wanz. Non Wrestlers Dave Brown (television announcer), Bobby Bruns (booker/architect of the first Japan wrestling boom), Bob Caudle (television announcer), Bobby Davis (manager), Joe Higuchi (referee), Jim Johnston (music composer), Larry Matysik (announcer/booker), James Melby (reporter/historian), Rossy Ogawa (promoter/booker), Reggie Parks (belt maker), Morris Sigel (promoter/booking agent), Tony Schiavone (television announcer), George Scott (booker), Sanshiro Takagi (promoter/booker), Mike Tenay (television announcer/newsletter pioneer), Ted Turner (owner/television station owner), Roy Welch (promoter), Stanley Weston (magazine publisher) and Grand Wizard Ernie Roth (manager/television announcer). It'll be interesting to see how the changes affect who gets in. I think Historical some more in a bit but I could see modern US maybe only having 2 or 3 get in and I'm not sure who it'd be. Japan probably doesn't get anyone in as I think the Beauty Pair who should be in probably are a bit to old for voters. I think the Buck's and Moxley should get in and I'd like to see the Briscoe's get in but I think ROH holds them back. I'm hoping Steiners go down in votes cause gently caress Ric Steiner but can't call the rest of the votes
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Oct 14, 2023 18:24
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| # ? May 11, 2024 16:18 |
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My HOF picks up are: US/Canada Historical: Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson with J.J. Dillon Jack & Jerry Brisco Junkyard Dog Sputnik Monroe Johnny Rougeau Iron Sheik Sgt. Slaughter Mad Dog & Butcher Vachon US/Canada Modern: Mark & Jay Briscoe Young Bucks Bill Goldberg Kevin Nash & Scott Hall Rick & Scott Steiner Japan: The Beauty Pair (Jackie Sato & Maki Ueda) Meiko Satomura Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada. Mexico: Los Hermanos Dinamita (Cien Caras & Mascara Ano 2000 & Universo 2000) Blue Panther Huracan Ramirez. Rest of the world: Spyros Arion Killer Karl Kox Johnny Saint Adrian Street Non Wrestlers: Joe Higuchi (referee) Jim Johnston (music composer) Reggie Parks (belt maker) Sanshiro Takagi (promoter/booker) Mike Tenay (television announcer/newsletter pioneer) Grand Wizard Ernie Roth (manager/television announcer)
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Oct 14, 2023 19:00
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Roman's hall case is going to be such a fascinating discussion has he's headlined some of the biggest drawing shows ever and yet I still don't see him above the Orton line of being an actual draw and not a product of WWE just being the monopoly for so long. I was kinda of turning around on his case earlier this year but his Summerslam match being such a wet far kinda of put me down on it I would love if Moxley got in first, I'd kinda of be okay if Reigns made it in later and laugh if Rollins never made it in (And despite Dave thinking he has a case I think Rollins is nowhere near close)
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Oct 14, 2023 19:49
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US/Canada Modern: Outsiders, Stratus Non-Wrestlers: Bruns, Caudle, Johnston, Parks I'm not going to pretend to know a ton about the territories or the rest of the world. Hall/Nash were a gamechanger in top-ranked talent going to WCW outside of Hogan and Friends and led to the second greatest stable in US history and WCW's greatest period of business. Stratus could have made an easy living as strictly eye candy but put in the work to be one of the best workers of her generation and helped open the door to more women to be taken seriousy as wrestlers. WWE's mediocre modern songs show how much good entrance music matters to a wrestler's presentation so Johnston gets in. Briscoes are borderline; a great team but never had a chance to shine on a major stage for extended time; WWE were never interested and AEW were blocked before Jay's death. It's too early for the Bucks', there's an argument to be made but it's more for their out of ring efforts than in-ring. Hardy's were incredibly influental and led to the car crash style of ladder matches, which might be more determintal than positive. Too early for Lynch and Reigns. Rest are all very good but not great.
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Oct 14, 2023 19:57
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It is legitimately a crime that Fujiwara and the Beauty Pair are not in the WONHOF
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Oct 14, 2023 22:05
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Suplex Liberace posted:It is legitimately a crime that Fujiwara and the Beauty Pair are not in the WONHOF Sputnik Monroe as well.
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Oct 14, 2023 22:11
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SatoshiMiwa posted:Roman's hall case is going to be such a fascinating discussion has he's headlined some of the biggest drawing shows ever and yet I still don't see him above the Orton line of being an actual draw and not a product of WWE just being the monopoly for so long. I was kinda of turning around on his case earlier this year but his Summerslam match being such a wet far kinda of put me down on it If not for the Bloodline, I'd agree with you on Roman Reigns. As much as the Kayfabe Octagon rags on him, dude has moved ratings and, more importantly in the minds of some voters, tickets (since 2021).
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Oct 14, 2023 22:14
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For modern I would put Moxley, Roman, Bucks, and Orndorff (dammit observer rules) in definitely. Past that I love me some Goldberg but I'm obviously biased.
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Oct 14, 2023 22:51
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There's certainly a case for Reigns, but I'd like to see how the whole Bloodline angle ends up. There's also a feeling that WWE had decided that they are crowning his rear end and aren't letting go despite a couple of natural situations (WM 3-way, McIntyre overseas) where one of his losses could have occured without any real loss of heat and they just didn't happen. Roman's going in for sure, it's just a matter of when. Moxley feels like he's going to be the modern Sting; someone who was perennially on top of a number two promotion. The insistence on bleeding in every match and the deathmatch stuff hurts him more than it helps. He'll get in as part of the SHIELD, but as a solo I don't think there's anything that puts him over the top. Roman's 100% in at some point, Rollins is 50-75% at this point, Moxley is <50%.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:07
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I think your under rating Moxley who not only had a run on top of AEW but also did a bunch of New Japan and Indy stuff that stands out. Plus he has a better body of match work than either Reigns (Which is not bad but is very samey) and Rollins. Moxley will at the very least get in before Rollins and should get in before Reigns
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Oct 14, 2023 23:30
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Moxley has been the ace of a historically significant company, with two great title reigns, tons of great matches, one of the best promos of his generation, solid draw when needed, a two-time WOTY winner (if that matters to you), and most importantly, is cool as gently caress. I'm not sure what more you need to see from him at this point. Rollins is not a serious candidate. Both of his title runs were complete flops and his work is mid as hell.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:33
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The Red light Hell in a Cell with the fiend should be like case closed for Rollins serious chances. Even if you want to argue on work rate he's not that far ahead of even others in WWE and is nowhere close to guys in Japan/Mexico/AEW
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Oct 14, 2023 23:36
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Satoshi Kojima should be in the "Macho Man Randy Savage Award For Best Elbow Drop" category. im being handed a note telling me thats not a real category. anyway cya
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Oct 14, 2023 23:43
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Kojima sadly will still be stuck in the 2000 era wrestlers who were really good and had good accomplishments but because they only worked New Japan/All Japan in the 00's they'll never get into the hall
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Oct 15, 2023 00:31
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I don't know why Dave keeps putting TenCozy on the ballot when Kojima has a way more compelling resume as a singles
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Oct 15, 2023 01:25
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So here is my ballot if I had a vote, which sadly I do not: US/Canada Historical Junkyard Dog (his late-stage WWF run holds him back, but he was a massively huge star in the South, particularly in New Orleans. One of the most famous Black wrestlers ever, which wasn't easy in that era.) Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez (should've gotten in last year. One of the best tag teams of their era and great draws to boot.) Johnny Rougeau (huge draw in Quebec, and kinda exposes the HOF's American bias. If he drew the numbers he did in the South, he would've coasted in years ago.) Sgt. Slaughter (Pop culture fixture, one of the faces of the 80s WWF boom, an underrated worker with some memorable matches, took huge bumps for his size. About his only real negative is the Iraqi angle, and I won't argue if you think that's disqualifying. But he checks almost every other box.) US/Canada Modern The Young Bucks (best tag team in the world for over a decade, obvious drawing power, groundbreaking in so many ways. The biggest slam dunk since Okada.) Mark and Jay Briscoe (If the Bucks were the best tag team, the Briscoes were a very close #2, and possibly better depending on the year. Their resume is just stupid deep, and versatile. They had incredible matches in every style you can think of -- traditional tags, technical mat work, high-flying spotfests, brawling bloodbaths. They could do it all. They also had insane longvetity -- every time you thought they were hitting a lull or maybe past their prime, they hit you with some more bangers. Tragically, the team ended way too early, but in many ways, the FTR series was the perfect capstone to their careers, showing everything they could do, how great they could do it, and still on top of the world 20 years in. I don't care if they "never did it in the major leagues," the Briscoes are a Hall of Fame tag team. Jon Moxley (refer back to my post earlier in this thread. Did everything asked of him in AEW and also had some great runs in Japan and the indies. I've seen enough.) Paul Orndorff (not only one of Hogan's best-drawing opponents, but did a great job drawing with Flair and other top territory stars. It's a shame he never got a Mania singles match with Hogan, because that first show was really his peak. But a great career that needs more love.) CM Punk (Meme all you want, who loving cares. He was a HOFer before Brawl Out.) Japan The Beauty Pair (one of the most influential joshi acts of all time, directly inspired the Crush Gals and many other joshi tag teams.) Tomohiro Ishii (here is where I make my argument that the HOF puts way too much emphasis on drawing. It's an important factor, no doubt, but some people treat it like the only thing that matters. But at the end of the day, it's a Wrestling Hall of Fame, the "wrestling" part should matter, and by that criteria, Ishii is one of the greatest goddamn wrestlers on God's green earth. Put him in and make workrate cool again.) Shingo Takagi (I don't expect him to get in because the voters have never respected Dragon Gate. But if you judge that stuff, plus his great work in New Japan as a top guy, it's very hard to keep him out.) Mexico Abstain, sorry Rest of the world Abstain, not sorry to Big Daddy Non-wrestlers Bobby Davis (basically invented the heel manager as we know it, you can trace a straight line from him to the Heenan/Cornette/Heyman types later on.) Jim Johnston (music is an integral part of wrestling and Johnston wrote some of the most iconic themes in history. He also has a drawing argument since a lot of the WWF soundtracks charted on Billboard in their heyday.) Morris Sigel (I'm a little surprised Dave hasn't put him in as a pioneer, one of the earliest and most famous promoters that put Houston on the map.) Tony Schiavone (the AEW run did a lot to rehab his image, and erase the bad memories of late-stage WCW when he openly didn't care. Just a great play-by-play man who did some underappreciated work directing traffic with big egos like Dusty and Heenan and Zbyszko on the desk.) Ted Turner (the guy who kept WCW on the air when all of his investors kept telling him it was a bad idea. His resume is more divisive since he had little-to-no involvement in the creative side, and his induction opens up a can of worms to guys like Nick Khan and whomever is Tony's boss at WBD, but I'll stand by it. Maybe the only TV executive pre-Khan who actually liked pro wrestling and wanted to see it succeed.) Grand Wizard (much like Bobby Davis, a pioneer in the manager character. Also a fun backstory, he was a Jewish man who called himself "Grand Wizard" to mock the KKK, as a buffoonish heel who always got his comeuppence.) Benne fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 10:31
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I don't have anything to back this up but I think if you looked up Ishii's drawing record, it wouldn't even be that bad. He's main evented in the US and the UK a few times, he's held secondary titles that NJPW will main event shows with, he's main evented G1 and New Japan Cup shows here and there and he challenged for the world title.....twwwwiiiiice, I think? I think if you looked at all of that, you would find a track record that is, at the very least, not gonna disqualify him if you're arguing for him to get in on the basis of his otherworldly match quality.
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Oct 15, 2023 16:15
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I'd put CIMA in before Shingo but given talent still hates him and most reporters that follow the Observer downplay Dragon Gate I doubt it'll happen. Shingo probably gets in maybe not this year but in a year or two as a Dragon Gate guy (but more for his New Japan stuff)
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Oct 15, 2023 16:38
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is Edge seriously on the ballot and not Christian Christian has been having an incredible run in AEW, whereas Edge has, by all accounts, been rather mid since his return to WWE. Am I missing something here
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Oct 15, 2023 19:26
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Edge is still on the ballot from when he first retired from the WWE and hasn't fallen off whereas Christian has. You can make a case Chrisitian probably should be put back on with his current AEW run though
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Oct 15, 2023 19:32
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Venomous posted:is Edge seriously on the ballot and not Christian Edge has had a much better career than Christian.
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Oct 15, 2023 19:40
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MJeff posted:I don't have anything to back this up but I think if you looked up Ishii's drawing record, it wouldn't even be that bad. He's main evented in the US and the UK a few times, he's held secondary titles that NJPW will main event shows with, he's main evented G1 and New Japan Cup shows here and there and he challenged for the world title.....twwwwiiiiice, I think? I think if you looked at all of that, you would find a track record that is, at the very least, not gonna disqualify him if you're arguing for him to get in on the basis of his otherworldly match quality. Ishii has no case as a draw. He has a couple of decent crowds for title matches and was never given the ball and there's no real reason to think he would have been huge if he got it. Shingo has just as good of a workrate resume and runs on top in two big companies. He can't compare to someone like CIMA or other resumes on that list. The voting changes seem foolish but basically all of Dave's decisions on the Hall of Fame in the last 5 years have made it worse.
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Oct 15, 2023 20:01
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I've always felt that Ishii would have benefitted from having a run with the ROH top title when he was more over in the States than he was in Japan. That was another case of ROH being too absorbed with Bullet Club and dropping the ball in another area. If you give Ishii a Morishima-run with the ROH title while he was having bangers with everyone and then let him put someone over in the end, he has a much stronger case than someone who's career peak was "good midcarder in a promotion having a golden era of great workers."
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Oct 16, 2023 01:38
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kind of shocked Manami Toyota isn't already in, should be a lock. edit: wait nvm she got in ages ago, had no idea she had a team option here
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Oct 17, 2023 18:39
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Spiros Arion and Killer Karl Kox should've been in already If Adrian Street doesn't get in we riot
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Oct 18, 2023 03:49
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Well...we have 7 in and it's - Rocca & Perez, Beauty Pair, Sgt Slaughter, Tomohiro Ishii, Jack and Jerry Brisco, George Kidd and Blue Panther. Both the Bucks and Reigns got over 50% but didn't make it in
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Nov 17, 2023 15:21
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i think its time to stop with usa/canada for a few classes, gotta un log jam mexico and japan.
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Nov 17, 2023 15:24
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Finally, no more Big Daddy discourse.
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Nov 17, 2023 15:25
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Pylons posted:Finally, no more Big Daddy discourse. Allan will never stop the Big Daddy discourse
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Nov 17, 2023 18:25
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I think Shingo's biggest albatrosses are his biggest runs being 1: in Dragon Gate and 2: During the empty arena/no cheering pandemic era of NJPW. The latter in particular I think gives off optics to some of him 'failing' on top whereas Ishii by virtue of never having been given the ball doesn't have that weighing him down.
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Nov 17, 2023 18:45
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Gaz-L posted:I think Shingo's biggest albatrosses are his biggest runs being 1: in Dragon Gate and 2: During the empty arena/no cheering pandemic era of NJPW. The latter in particular I think gives off optics to some of him 'failing' on top whereas Ishii by virtue of never having been given the ball doesn't have that weighing him down. His albatross is he was a star in a very successful company that Dave Meltzer did not watch and thus the new breed of voters thinks he was a failure.
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Nov 17, 2023 22:35
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Lid posted:Spiros Arion and Killer Karl Kox should've been in already Arion and Kox do kinda suffer from the fact that most people are extremely ignorant of the Australian scene back in the 60s and 70s. If there was more knowledge then it'd be hard to argue that the Golden Greek and Killer Karl aren't HOF certified.
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Nov 17, 2023 23:03
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Are we doing an Observer Awards thread for 2023?
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Jan 2, 2024 20:49
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Only thing I know for certain is that Christian is winning Best Gimmick and Best Non Wrestler is going to Don Callis
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Jan 3, 2024 16:05
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