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Misunderstood posted:Like, poor reasoning is currently causing (and always has caused) gigantic problems in the world, and I think a lot of things about society would have to change before we, as a society, mentally decouple reasoning and cognition, if such a thing is possible. “Poor reasoning” “high cognitive capacity” What exactly do you mean by reasoning. I think a much more accurate way to think about this is that there is a list of things brains do and characteristics of how particular brains work. There is also a list of signals brains get from senses and other parts of the brain. Each of these things could be present or absent. Each could express early or late. Each could have the volume turned way up or way down. A brain might might have verbal comprehension and visual spatial three standard deviations above the mean and working memory two deviations below. Another brain might not perceive social signals or have the volume way down on them but then have extremely high working memory but also low impulse control. It’s extremely complicated and it all expresses in extremely complicated ways. A person can be have extremely high cognitive capacity and simultaneously multiple disabilities. So when I read “poor reasoning” “is currently causing (and always has caused) gigantic problems “. I see a gross simplification “poor reasoning” followed by a subjective value judgement “is currently causing (and always has caused) gigantic problems”. You are defending the idea that you can call people who’s decisions you disagree with, stupid.
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Oct 31, 2023 23:16
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Bar Ran Dun posted:You are defending the idea that you can call people who’s decisions you disagree with, stupid. I was using "cognitive capacity" to mean, roughly, the poo poo that "IQ" measures, and the thing that is considered "intelligence" in the collective public interpretation. The "Big Bang Theory" guys. The standard, dramatically oversimplified view of the human mind and what it is capable of. By "reasoning," I meant reaching good conclusions, and using your brain to make the world better for yourself and those around you. We are absolutely on the same page - to make "IQ" the only axis on which one is "smart" or "stupid" is ridiculous. The idea of using "retard," or other terms that refer to a disability involving low IQ, as a pejorative, is that it's the truth. In retrospect, I may have used "reasoning" and "cognitive capacity" backwards? Like I said, this is way, way up deep in the language - it goes so far beyond the word this thread is about! When I talk about poor reasoning causing problems in the world... I mean, people make poor decisions, and they lead to suffering. In our culture those poor decisions are linked to the idea of "stupidity," commonly thought to be 'The Opposite of the "Big Bang Theory" Guys'. But plenty of bad decisions are made by "whip-smart" people and plenty of wisdom, or creativity, or moral strength or profundity can be found in people who think more slowly. I don't hate myself, so I didn't watch that show, but I'm pretty sure a lot of it was about those guys making bad decisions. Even fuckin' Chuck Lorre gets it, on some level. So getting people to understand different kinds of intelligence, and the unique virtues that somebody like a Downs person can have, is really the key to keeping clinical terms for the disabled from eventually becoming insults hurled at those who we perceive to be making poor decisions, or reaching poor conclusions. And yes, if I am being honest, I myself hold this bias as much as anybody. That I can acknowledge the huge flaws in that point of view is, sadly, not enough to outweigh my deeply embedded intuition that "stupidity" is a singular quality that leads to poor decisions, and often the result of a non-standard brain. That's something that I am working on, but most people don't even know that it's a problem at all. Some words are just too far gone - "idiot," at this point, does just mean "guy who votes for the other guy" or "guy who drives too slow in traffic." And so "retard" was another word that followed in that path, and maybe it's good that we decided to break the cycle with this one, rather than letting it slowly seep into the lexicon as yet another subtle linguistic reminder that the disabled are lesser. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Nov 1, 2023 |
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Nov 1, 2023 02:04
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https://twitter.com/awfulannouncing/status/1719444167569580219 Just gonna leave this here. Someone does actually use the word in question
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Nov 2, 2023 19:11
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zhar posted:Do doctors and the like still use it eg "the child was born mentally / physically retarded" or is disabled or some other word the new term because retard became a slur? Just curious. No they’re considered medically outdated.
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Nov 3, 2023 11:46
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tehslime posted:No they’re considered medically outdated.
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Nov 3, 2023 11:57
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I'm not married to word usage in general, but I can understand the push back. Everybody knows that stigmas can exist, but I would hope mute people don't take issue with the word dumb in its modern day usage. People just get used to their habits. This feels like the c-word debate in GBS. Some people aren't keen to be on the forefront of the culture war and I also think it's not entirely healthy to feel malice when there is none. In a way, autist has already replaced the old usage in many communities, and while I'm sure people will start railing against that as well, it just feels like the most exhausting people are leading the charges on word usage because the stakes feel so low compared to other things that require tackling. As time goes on, what little malice that remains in the r-word will fade as well. It's not like advocating for change is bad, but I guess I'm just weirded out by how zealous people are about it. But you know, maybe this is a small improvement in the world and its more than what I'm doing.
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Nov 3, 2023 16:26
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It will just become a standard insult, just like dumb. I don't think anyone uses it to refer to mute people.
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Nov 3, 2023 16:35
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Jesus III posted:It will just become a standard insult, just like dumb. I don't think anyone uses it to refer to mute people.
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Nov 3, 2023 16:42
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Bastard used to be an unthinkable insult, now people throw ir around all the time. The R word will get there, it's just the nature of language.
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Nov 3, 2023 19:05
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tehslime posted:No they’re considered medically outdated. What is the medical term now, anyway? They just name particular syndromes that cause it (i.e. "he has Downs Syndrome" or whatever) instead? Or something else?
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Nov 5, 2023 01:18
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MadDogMike posted:What is the medical term now, anyway? They just name particular syndromes that cause it (i.e. "he has Downs Syndrome" or whatever) instead? Or something else? Either you refer to the DSM V term or you say "intellectually disabled" or ID for short. Anything else is *at best* a distraction.
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Nov 6, 2023 16:54
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Either you refer to the DSM V term or you say "intellectually disabled" or ID for short. Ah, thanks; oddly enough I've known not to use the R word but had absolutely no idea what the right term to use was these days.
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Nov 7, 2023 04:56
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I used to have strong feelings about not using it, I certainly gave up using it like fifteen years ago because of those strong feelings. I don't think I still have those strong feelings any more. I think the harm of using it as a general insult for someone/something being stupid is probably fairly minimal at this point. I do still have strong feelings about not calling a cognitively impaired person that as an insult, though. That seems like a much shittier thing to do. With that said, in my usual social circles it's definitely fallen out of favor as a word over that same fifteen year time span to the point where it just seems sort of tacky to use it, even if I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with it. I also don't care when I do find myself in social circles where it is acceptable, I think trying to police other people's language is also kind of tacky. But, I think whatever your thoughts on the subject, there should be a distinction drawn between using it as a slur, and saying it. Saying "r-word" just seems really childish to me and I'm not going to do this weird verbal dance around it. If there's a legitimate reason to say a word, like discussing it, then just say it.
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Nov 9, 2023 03:30
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When you use phrases like "the r-word" or any of the other equivalents for other words, what you are doing is acknowledging that the word is not one you are comfortable saying because of its use. Which is a normal thing to do. It exists so that you can describe the existence of the word while separating that description of the word from the normal use of the word, because the normal use of the word is bad.
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Nov 9, 2023 04:16
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My suspicion is that there are many people that get very defensive about their use of the term because there's a certain cognitive dissonance that comes from wanting to see yourself as conscientious but also wanting to use a word that sounds funny and is fun to say even if it's harmful and cruel. I think deep down folks who say this term but are otherwise conscientious people, they know that it's wrong. So when someone calls them out on using this term, they go on the offensive, they say that people criticizing them are bourgeois or policing the language of the working class. "And actually aren't you the real problem because you're not talking about the shortage of DSPs?" But ultimately none of that is the real reason that they say the r-word. They say they are word because it's funny and because it's cruel and they don't want to make the hard decision to remove it from their vocabulary.
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Nov 9, 2023 05:54
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A Buttery Pastry posted:"I'm sorry, there's no easy way to say this, so I'll just cut straight to the point: Your child is medically outdated." Interesting fact: apparently the term “mentally retarded” was considered an official term within the U.S. government (and amongst the affiliated doctors/psychologists) until 2010.
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Feb 12, 2024 09:51
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tehslime posted:Interesting fact: apparently the term “mentally retarded” was considered an official term within the U.S. government (and amongst the affiliated doctors/psychologists) until 2010. Yeah, because it means ”delayed”. “Mentally retarded” means basically word for word the same as “cognitively delayed”, it’s just that one has been given a connotation of insult by popular usage. It’s probably selective because the word “retarded” has fallen out of common usage for other purposes (unless you’re talking about old engine timing), whereas everyone is still familiar with “delayed” meaning “behind schedule”.
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Feb 12, 2024 20:48
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SamuraiFoochs posted:Fixating on the goddamn language and acting like eliminating the r-word from casual use (which TBH has pretty much already happened, so like, what're you even going for here?) will be some huge victory, some huge coup for people with disabilities, is legit offensive to me. People don't regularly use the word tranny anymore, certainly not without backlash. That's great. But are things for trans folks in this country any less hosed? I mean, probably at least a little bit but think about how many issues there still are. You don't need me to tell you. Anti-trans legislation, casual bigotry that never goes into full hate crime and therefore kinda skates by, dogwhistles...that all has gotten just as bad if not worse as the outright hatred has become less societally acceptable. I'm not saying eliminating that isn't a step forward, it is. What I am saying is too many people pat themselves on the back and stop there. The language is just a shibboleth for the bigots to identify their own.
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Mar 6, 2024 23:34
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