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is it just me, or does operation paperclip get brought up a lot on cspam/the internet? it seems like the go-to example of america being evil nazi sympathizers, and it's sometimes presented as like a red pill fact that will open normies' eyes to the sins of the US. but: - the scientists we grabbed during operation paperclip mostly went on to work in the civilian space program, which certainly had its flaws but which is mostly viewed positively by the american public - the scientists were all nazis but they don't really have any eye-grabbing, headline-worthy crimes. von braun benefited from slave labor and probably turned a blind eye to the horrors of the camps. same story for a lot of operation paperclip guys. that's horrible, but not really special. i'm not an expert, so if there are really heinous guys who got brought over, i'm interested in hearing about them, but i've never heard of anybody like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bolschwing, who organized huge pogroms during ww2 and then worked for the CIA in the 50s - the soviets grabbed scientists in the exact same way in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim honest question: is there truly horrible stuff that i've missed in operation paperclip? i hate nazis but i've never really understood why this event in particular gets so much attention
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Jan 11, 2024 23:04
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I think it's brought up mostly as shorthand, because we don't have an institutionally recognized historical position/framework/outlook that comports to the actual, historical reality of postwar American empire. At a basic level it exposes the contradiction between the domestic ideological conception of the US as the "good guys" taking a principled stand against nazism and fascism and us happily employing any useful nazi we could get our hands on in our efforts to destroy the Soviet Union and establish ourselves as the unquestioned global hegemon. I think, along the lines you've mentioned, a better and more appropriate shorthand would be Gladio/the stay-behind networks which often employed and empowered some of the most depraved nazis, but I think one of the reasons it isn't is because it's just too uncomfortable and really difficult to digest unless you're already on that real destroy amerikkka tip.
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Jan 11, 2024 23:15
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Von Braun worked for the US army making missiles including heading the program that resulted in the first live nuclear ballistic missile tests. He led a program in Germany dependent on slave labour, he said he could not change this and that's probably true but that doesn't mean he had to do it. Just following orders bullshit. Moreover, he reportedly ordered torture. These are not small crimes. The Soviet prisoners were prisoners not well rewarded members of society.
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Jan 12, 2024 01:41
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We also used those nazis to build NATO
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Jan 12, 2024 12:23
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Mostly disappointment that we got missile technology out of it but not snappy Hugo Boss outfits
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Jan 12, 2024 12:28
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Aglet56 posted:is it just me, or does operation paperclip get brought up a lot on cspam/the internet? there are actually a myriad of ways that the soviets treated their captured scientists differently but the biggest is they were kept isolated from society and not allowed to be in leadership positions. They were also returned to germany after their years of work and not allowed to rise into the upper echelons of high society as happened here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
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Jan 12, 2024 12:39
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ive never seen this sourced, only talked about matter-of-factly by leftist twitter accounts but would like to know if its actually a well sourced thing or not did von brauns factory regularly do public executions of their least productive slave laborers?
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Jan 12, 2024 12:49
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fanfic insert posted:ive never seen this sourced, only talked about matter-of-factly by leftist twitter accounts but would like to know if its actually a well sourced thing or not https://dora.uah.edu/slavelabor.html
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Jan 12, 2024 12:58
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Aglet56 posted:civilian space program 
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Jan 12, 2024 13:30
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OrangéJéllo posted:not allowed to rise into the upper echelons of high society as happened here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Apel
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Jan 12, 2024 13:48
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There isnt really a clever name for the adoption of nazi doctrine into western militaries or the proliferation of nazis into european leadership, so people just kinda start and stop with Paperclip
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Jan 12, 2024 14:19
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it's because it was part of a suite of nazi stuff the us did post-ww2. paperclip, gladio, the rat lines to smuggle nazis out, using nazis as mercenaries, installing nazis in european governments, hiring nazis for the cia, etc. it's an easy way to refer to the integration of nazism into america and its vassal states
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Jan 12, 2024 14:54
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Aglet56 posted:is it just me, or does operation paperclip get brought up a lot on cspam/the internet? The space program was really a nuclear missile program and at the time the space program was not viewed nearly as positively as it is now. In the 70s fewer than half of Americans thought the space program was worth it. That said, yeah looking at how much NATO leadership in the early years were just straight up nazis is more red pilly.
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Jan 12, 2024 16:32
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it's cuz it's an easy name to remember op
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Jan 12, 2024 16:32
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Also westerners can't understand malfeasance unless it's presented as a conspiracy theory, and joe rogan types love talking about it, bing bing bong you have a memetic attack vector
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Jan 12, 2024 17:42
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Rocket scientist were just the visible portion of the iceberg. We also put Nazis I’m places of prominence in the governing structures of the US, NATO, and West Germany. Not to mention help them escape to South America where they probably played a minor role in the shenanigans the US was playing there. We also did the same thing with Japanese War criminals, who helped us kick-start our germ warfare program and got put back into the ruling Liberal Democratic Party. That they were so compatible should indicate how similar the US is to the Reich, and make you suspect of the foundations of this society.
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Jan 12, 2024 18:03
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Canada helped some nazis escape so the spirit of Bandera could live on and return to infest Ukraine, but I don't think it had a snappy name
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Jan 12, 2024 18:15
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Operation Mapleclip
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Jan 12, 2024 18:24
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Aglet56 posted:honest question: is there truly horrible stuff that i've missed in operation paperclip? i hate nazis but i've never really understood why this event in particular gets so much attention We hired and enriched people who enriched themselves off the death of millions of people across four continents, op How bad does something have to be to count as really bad for you? "We secretly imported Nazis and inserted them into high level government positions after they killed millions of people for their own gain" seems like it's pretty bad on its own without any standout examples
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Jan 12, 2024 18:27
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none of these people ever explain why if we love nazis so much we never recruited Hitler after the war. He's the number one nazi!
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Jan 12, 2024 18:31
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio
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Jan 12, 2024 18:32
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Dr. Jerrold Coe posted:none of these people ever explain why if we love nazis so much we never recruited Hitler after the war. He's the number one nazi! If you ask me, it's very telling how much the west vilified the guy who killed Hitler after the war. You think they'd at least give him a medal or something!
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Jan 12, 2024 18:45
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Jan 12, 2024 18:48
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drat nazis being so good at math put us between a rock and a hard place
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Jan 12, 2024 19:42
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on top of being responsible for some good tunes, tom lehrer claims credit for inventing the jello shot
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Jan 12, 2024 20:37
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Dr. Jerrold Coe posted:none of these people ever explain why if we love nazis so much we never recruited Hitler after the war. He's the number one nazi! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hke7xQFXa30
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Jan 12, 2024 22:22
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Aglet56 posted:is it just me, or does operation paperclip get brought up a lot on cspam/the internet? of course it is hard to find evidence of the worst offenders brought over via operation paperclip, because the programs they worked for in the usa the would be secret and the government didnt want to make public their previous war crimes. but there are still some publicly known, like Hubertus Strughold, who was involved in human experimentation at Dachau and also suffocated some children to make them have seizures. he was sought as a war criminal by the US Army before getting scooped up in Paperclip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubertus_Strughold or Eric Traub who ran the Nazi bioweapons program and worked directly for Himmler. after Operation Paperclip he worked on the US bioweapons program. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Traub Trabisnikof has issued a correction as of 01:29 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 22:36
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Trabisnikof posted:of course it is hard to find evidence of the worst offenders brought over via operation paperclip, because the programs they worked for in the would be secret and the government didnt want to make public their previous war crimes. Aglet56 posted:- the scientists we grabbed during operation paperclip mostly went on to Aglet56 posted:mostly you can hide a whole lot of crimes against humanity in "mostly"
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Jan 12, 2024 22:40
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Trabisnikof posted:of course it is hard to find evidence of the worst offenders brought over via operation paperclip, because the programs they worked for in the would be secret and the government didnt want to make public their previous war crimes. okay these are pretty heinous
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Jan 12, 2024 23:10
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I think, along the lines you've mentioned, a better and more appropriate shorthand would be Gladio/the stay-behind networks which often employed and empowered some of the most depraved nazis, but I think one of the reasons it isn't is because it's just too uncomfortable and really difficult to digest unless you're already on that real destroy amerikkka tip. Gladio is also a huge fuckin mess where we don't know a lot for certain and just explaining it makes you sound nuts, while paperclip is entirely agreed-upon public knowledge
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Jan 13, 2024 00:32
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Soapy_Bumslap posted:We also used those nazis to build NATO those were different nazis I believe
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Jan 13, 2024 00:37
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StashAugustine posted:Gladio is also a huge fuckin mess where we don't know a lot for certain and just explaining it makes you sound nuts, while paperclip is entirely agreed-upon public knowledge it’s pretty much this. even to this day, most libs (eg d&d, ‘kos, reddits etc) think it’s all a fake Bigfoot ufo conspiracy by teh tankies, and actually cia is woke. mentioning gladio is a good way to out yourself as a art bell morgellons conspiracy wacko but Havana syndrome is 100% real
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Jan 13, 2024 00:44
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then again lot of ppl still don’t believe paperclip
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Jan 13, 2024 00:45
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"russian propaganda, obviously"
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Jan 13, 2024 00:51
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it would bother me if i found out the allies gave the nazis jobs instead of bringing them to justice
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Jan 13, 2024 02:57
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StashAugustine posted:Gladio is also a huge fuckin mess where we don't know a lot for certain and just explaining it makes you sound nuts, while paperclip is entirely agreed-upon public knowledge Yeah that's true. You need to fill in a lot of the blanks and if you don't have a working understanding of class and power you just won't be able to do it and it'll sound like insane conspiracy theory bullshit. But also if you have a working understanding of class and power you won't need to be convinced that the US is bad by Gladio because you'll no longer be a liberal
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Jan 13, 2024 05:51
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Raldikuk posted:The space program was really a nuclear missile program and at the time the space program was not viewed nearly as positively as it is now. In the 70s fewer than half of Americans thought the space program was worth it. It is funny that Tom Leher's song about Von Braun was the first indication I ever had that contemporary people thought the space race was a waste of money and I was in my 20s
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Jan 13, 2024 06:29
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KomradeX posted:It is funny that Tom Leher's song about Von Braun was the first indication I ever had that contemporary people thought the space race was a waste of money and I was in my 20s Whitey on The Moon
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Jan 13, 2024 15:41
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speaking of utilizing nazis, the east german NDPD was designed to appeal to ex-wehrmacht, nazis, and nationalists and align them with SED policies. Stalin was a little too enthusiastic about this and wanted to let them publish the Völkischer Beobachter again. mostly everyone else was quietly like uhh wait. what the gently caress? You can't just like, capture the nazi party and use it to your own purposes like in pokemon Stalin.
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Jan 13, 2024 16:35
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Nix Panicus posted:If you ask me, it's very telling how much the west vilified the guy who killed Hitler after the war. You think they'd at least give him a medal or something! Canada is working on it, I'm sure
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Jan 13, 2024 17:09
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