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Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

selec posted:

This creates a place for radical orgs like ALF as a necessary corrective if the institutions fail us. If we can’t use the legitimate institutions as expressions of our collective will because they are so fragile or vulnerable in the ways they so obviously are, I can’t get mad about parapolitical organizations forcing the issue.

When the people whose job it is to use the institutions to derive fairer results tell us not to use those institutions, what’s the option?

No my colleagues who do legitimate animal research which cannot currently be replaced by other methods getting firebombed is not the loving answer to regulatory capture.

E: I would also like to not personally get killed in a fire because my laboratory happens to be located in the same building as a vivarium or other animal research facility tyvm

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Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

selec posted:

I can’t endorse their methods, but what’s the alternative if what we read about the way the monkeys were treated during Neurolink trials ends up meaning nothing?

If the oversight is broken, then what should be done? And how much unethical suffering are we willing to allow to persist while the oversight is broken, just eternally until we’re finally back to some potential future date when oversight works again?

This goes to my larger issue with things like the SC—if the only solution is to work within the decorum-approved channels, and those channels have absolutely no ability to prevent, say, a billionaire just buying off a justice publicly, well how long am I expected to stand for that poo poo? And how much respect for myself as a citizen and reverence for these institutions am I expected to maintain?

I don't know how we restore our broken institutions and build trust again after regulatory capture. A lot of us in the biomedical field were asking the same questions about CBER after the absurd approval of aducanumab. Especially when 40+% of the population seems to actively cheer on this sort of deregulatory spiral. But the answer can't be anyone taking whatever kinds of direct action they see fit against actors they deem a legitimate target, especially as most of the time these direct action groups have no idea what they're talking about.

Are we just forced to wait for things to get so bad we have to wait for another Upton Sinclair to write The New Jungle or whatever? I hope not, but I'm not sure what the answer is.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Bar Ran Dun posted:

DV,

It’s not FDA but what I saw at USDA FGIS was a progression from full time folks to contracted part time managed by full time. Then the full time folks retired and took consulting jobs advising how-to pass the inspections done by the remaining part time staff.

WSDA did better and kept the traditional staffing model.

CBER and CDER at least are still mostly full time staff from what I've heard at conferences and such. I don't know much about any of the other departments as I'm in biotech, not actually at the FDA.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Cranappleberry posted:

question about dis. The drug is purportedly* supposed to slow the progression of the disease so I would assume, despite the side effects, it would be given at all stages (at least until sometime this year when supplies out), rather than the case of being approved/tested for people dying who just want to take a shot?

With the latter, it seems it would be ethically fraught to give Alzheimer's patients in such an advanced stage the drug or test on them even if they (or their caretakers/medical decision makers) were at the point of throwing things against the wall in desperation. Though I understand some patient advocacy groups were pro-approval.

idk the ins and outs of this case and idk who would. Obviously making it economically "viable" for Biogen seemed problematic even after approval so they abandoned it.

*evidence did not seem to show this


The problem with aducanumab (imo and in the opinion of most people I've spoken to about it) is that there maybe is potential for it to be efficacious against the progression of the disease. However, the safety signals (mostly brain bleeds) are so large as to make the only somewhat above statistical significance slowing of progression not worthwhile.

The other problem is that the mechanism of action which they are using means that the reverse of what you're suggesting is what should have happened. The FDA should have told them to go back and figure out demographic or biomarker indicators for who is most likely to suffer from the brain bleed AEs and go back to a much earlier diagnosed patient population and run a longer trial with more stringent patient selection. Once the amyloid has built up the damage is done and stopping it at the earliest phase is most important. At the same time, we (the scientific community) need to go back and look for an etiology for Alzheimer's which occurs prior to or independent of amyloid beta plaque formation as blocking AB formation seems to only provide very modest disease modification in the best of cases.

I will end on the caveat that I have not gone and done much new research on this subject since the aducanumab approval a couple years ago and more promising data about anti-amyloid antibodies may be out from post-marketing approval studies. However, I stand by my position that the data at the time warranted a complete response letter (non-approval) for the BLA telling them to go back and do further studies. The data were so bad many payers would not cover it or only would at a much lower price than they were offering it. I actually just saw this news article as I was typing out this post, as you mentioned they're withdrawing the drug due to lack of patient use. I've got some people to text as I feel very vindicated now lol.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

This happened over two years ago and he was a slave owner and rapist anyway

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Zotix posted:

The US retaliatory strikes have begun, let the war gods feast.

It's helpful to provide a link to the actual developing story when you say things like this. I think most of us had an idea of what you meant but still.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/02/02/world/us-iran-strikes-middle-east-news

Cranappleberry posted:

this is the info I was looking for (outside of the unlikely case someone posts insider specifics). ty

also a thin therapeutic index or potentially horrible side-effects doesnt necessarily invalidate use, especially with a deadly, incurable disease but it does mean going back and doing more testing, just as you said, to narrow down where, how, when, who, as well as dosage and scheduling, as well as identifying proper followup care.

but that stuff costs time and money and narrows down potential sales, heaven forfend

np

Imo the observed AEs are way too big to be worth the honestly basically clinically irrelevant gain that they only managed to show after a deep messaging of the data. (Read: basically cherry picking). Aducanumab was always doomed.

The Lily antibody at least might be right around the breakeven and if they can figure out warning signs of the AEs or properly stratify pt populations then it might be worth it. Why it seems to be better is not entirely clear to me but it likely has to do with epitope selection (where on the amyloid protein the antibody binds to)

Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Feb 2, 2024

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

BRJurgis posted:

From what I see Americans are so politically ignorant, misinformed, and/or apathetic its starting to seem crazy that we talk about "preserving democracy". This democracy!?!?! These parties, these voters?!?!?


Anecdotally (and in all the many polling and survey debates here) I think Americans are so politically... incoherent... what could you say to sway them from whatever bizarre relationship they have with the news, and with the words Democrat and republican? So these statements seem bizarre to us sickos who try to stay informed, but I also don't think that they will land with anybody who didn't want to buy it in the first place.

I agree OP, this country should be run by forums.somethingawful.com posters instead of the citizens.

But no it is very frustrating to actually take the pulse of the American voter and see what comes of it. Even when given the direct chance to make things better, the voters will frequently just say "No gently caress that I like how broken it is right now so we can't change it." We tried to get ranked choice voting in MA, even outspent the opposition to it so it's not a matter of monied interests quashing the momentum. It still didn't pass, in one of the most educated and "progressive" areas of the nation the voters said "gently caress it we like the broken FTTP system and two party dominance we have now."

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Vahakyla posted:

Congrats on completely not understanding the topic at hand.

Your claim in itself is mis-informed, but the text doesn't even read what you say it does, even if we ignore all context.


This is a historic victory for the _types of voters_ who generally have not gotten a say when pasty white dudes get to vote first in a primary, setting the national momentum for their candidate.

Yeah my understanding is that tweet isn't talking about Biden's victory at all, it's hailing the symbolic victory for the first (sanctioned, ignoring that nh didn't listen) primary being in SC for the first time.

It's still a little goofy imo given the futility when the party already has a president incumbent and the fact that NH went ahead and did theirs first anyway.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

They have other studies and their annual safety stats include pedestrian deaths. It's just that in a study about seatbelt efficacy, you are by definition not including pedestrians because they have no seatbelts.

They produce other studies but I think OP is pointing towards the fact that their overall safety rating composite is entirely about the risks to you as an occupant of that car. At least the euro NCAP ratings factor in other road users to an extent.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

A jury in Michigan, for the first time in American history, held the parent of a minor mass shooter criminally liable for her son's mass shooting.

She was convicted on 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter.

Since it is hard to keep track of all the mass shootings over the last few years, this was a school shooting where the mother was found to:

- Have given her son the gun.

- Texted her son to do a better job hiding bullets after he was caught with them in school and got in trouble.

- Let her son keep the semi-automatic handgun she bought him unlocked in his room.

- Covered for her son when he was caught multiple times making threats to shoot up the school and writing out his plans in notebooks.

- Let her son bring the gun to school, but told him not to take it out or get caught with it.

She says that she never believed that her son was capable of mass murder, so all of her actions were done within that context and she wasn't responsible for his actions.

The prosecution alleged that her level of negligence was so high that it qualified for involuntary manslaughter and the jury agreed.

https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1754938615430308115

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jennifer-crumbley-trial-verdict-rcna136937

"How could I have known except for all these neon red flags thrown up."

This list of steps she took is nearly comical with how perfectly crafted it is to push this into negligence. I'd say this is a pretty unlikely thing to repeat just because most parents aren't so heinously stupid in the lead up like this.

God the pull quote is loving crazy too. Just no self reflection at all in this woman.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

mobby_6kl posted:

Is this the first time the parents have been prosecuted?

I read the Columbine book a while ago and it didn't seem like the parents could've been reasonably expected to see the massacre coming. Unless they like searched everything and found the tapes and diaries. I wonder if this is more common rather than the clearly negligent assholes like here.

Here's an article from when they were charged. It seems like one parent once was prosecuted for child neglect and one or two others might've gotten hit with illegal guns charges but that's not directly related to the shooting per se. This seems to be the first prosecution of a homicide crime against parents of a shooter for sure.

E: the one I'm talking about is the one Leon mentioned

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

FistEnergy posted:

Right. I completely agree. It's surreal.

https://x.com/PhilipWegmann/status/1754933040491483364?s=20

What part of this is supposed to convince me to support the Democrats? The part where they stump and whip for a right-wing bill full of border hysteria/racism and billions more for an Israeli regime dedicated to genocide and oppression? Or the part where they get outsmarted and outmaneuvered by the GOP yet again?

You (and SA posters in general) are not the median Dem voter. 43% of Dem voters seem to think we should treat those crossing at the southern border "more harshly," only 16% of dem voters say we should "be easier on those trying to cross at the border." 62% say it's a crisis or serious and immediate problem.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cbs-news-opinion-poll-americans-border-crisis/ (Crosstabs at the bottom of the page in the embedded PDF)

Dem voters think Israel has gone too far by a slim majority, yet 58% think that sending them additional weapons to "Fight Hamas" is important. Given it's split down the middle he should do the right thing and torpedo the military aid to Israel but my guess is they're looking at the crosstabs and see the age split and so aren't politically concerned because of lower turnout among younger voters.
https://apnorc.org/projects/half-believe-israels-military-response-in-gaza-has-gone-too-far/

Even the average dem/"progressive" voter in this country has to be brought kicking and screaming along to do anything approaching the right thing. This has been shown over and over again in poll after poll and even in direct referendums.


haveblue posted:

Don't forget that a lot of Democratic voters do want something to be done about the border without giving much thought to what exactly, so telling them "we tried to do something about the border, but Republicans stopped us" is actually what they want to hear

Yeah, this is basically the perfect messaging win for dems to their base. At this point the RWM has won and everyone is Very Concerned about immigration currently, only inflation seems to be more important to people. The dem base, along with "independent voters" want to see something done so the republicans killing a bill that had bipartisan support until just recently is a bad look.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

zoux posted:



Speculation time: Trump is famously a teetotaller, so do we think AB Inbev paid him for this or what

lmao at touting that ABInbev has a workforce comprising of 2.3% veterans, a rate 3x lower than the general population.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Only around 10% of Americans fell into it, but around 25% of politicians fell into it. Most of them also self-identified as moderate.

So, a lot of moderates actually want to tax the rich, have universal government-provided healthcare, mandate prayer in schools, increase education spending, deport all illegal immigrants, restrict abortion (but, not ban it entirely), and keep trans women out of sports.

Which aren't really issue positions that most people think of when they think of a "moderate" voter.

So a lot of moderate voters are literal national(ist) socialists.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

mawarannahr posted:

Could you please read these last few words again? Thank you

Have you like, just listened to him speak recently at all? They're both clearly doing much worse for the four years since 2020. If they actually manage to get trump to debate it's going to be a really poor showing and reviewing the 2020 ones right after I'm sure will be a sharp contrast.

I don't feel comfortable armchair diagnosing either person with dementia or anything but they're both pretty clearly at least suffering from standard age related cognitive decline.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

You also can't be morally pure by smugly sitting back and refusing to push the button and ensure things are slightly less bad.

But here's the trick, your ability to do politics doesn't begin and end at the election. Go talk to people about electoral reforms from a state level office up direction, organize to get alternative ballot types for state and national level positions. Directly lobby your government officials to pressure the administration to stop supporting Israel. Take direct action against those producing arms if you feel very strongly and have a good strategy.

There are much better ways to regain your feelings of being morally centered than to pretend that by not voting you're doing anything but giving half an effective vote to the delta in policy between the better and worse of the two candidates.

Mormon Star Wars posted:

Again, the people including the genocide in their decision are not just prideful people who are too hung up on morality. They are engaging in the same kind of moral reasoning as you. The difference here is not pride or self-image or weak moral character or whatever: It's how much weight you give to the genocide, or if you include it in your decision at all. As much as you have argued that they are leading to "badly hurting innocents" by weighing the genocide more than local problems (whatever they may be - you don't specify which in the post) - they can equally point out that you are also weighing some innocents more than others, just in the opposite direction.

You're supporting it by staying home, too. There's no walking away and washing your hands of it. Inaction is still an action and no matter what you do that doesn't include more than voting, you're lodging one vote for the genocide in Palestine and half a vote for every hypothetical thing Trump does that's worse.

I'm not saying this to sway anyone and this isn't how I would discuss it in other contexts, to get ahead of anyone bringing that up again.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Probably Magic posted:

It should be noted that the United States is not officially a two-party system. This argument about "realistic possibilities" is doing a lot of assumptions. It would behoove posters to make affirmative cases for their chosen candidate as opposed to pretending a gun is against their head that isn't there.

This is a stupid line of argument, even if it's not the de jure status of the US. The last time a third party candidate got over 50 EV was over a hundred years ago. The only way this will change is alternative actions that aren't immediately applicable to the question of the 2024 vote. You should absolutely go and support changing how we vote - I helped get an RCV measure on the ballot in 2020 - but it's immaterial to this conversation.

Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Feb 11, 2024

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Probably Magic posted:

Okay. Please stop stealing votes from Jill Stein to prop up the Democratic Party's failing attempt to keep Donald Trump out of office.

I also like to ignore reality sometimes but I don't bring my comforting delusions to the discussion forum.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Raiad posted:

If one group refuses to vote for Biden, even if Trump becomes president again, and another group views Trump as an existential threat that must be stopped at all costs, it makes more strategic sense for the latter group to join the former group.

Except those are the groups on this forum, not in US society at large so what you're left with is most people voting for Biden and trump anyway. Coming up with stupid rhetorical tricks which ignore the reality of the situation at large is worthless.

The former group is best served by voting for Biden anyway and then spending time over the next four years getting as much voting reforms pushed through as possible while also influencing the Democrats to put candidates forward who won't support a genocide in case those don't work out.

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

It cannot have moral weight under this thinking, because the ultimate conclusion is that as long as the two candidates hold the same position, the position is irrelevant, no matter how odious. It ceases to be a factor.

I think it's entirely evident that for every moral individual there must be a line that cannot be crossed; a line which would lead a person to withhold their support regardless of what any other candidate is doing. Otherwise, that would say your sense of morality is entirely farmed out to external forces and you are incapable of choosing for yourself what is and is not moral.

The underlying argument here is simply that the genocide in Gaza does not cross that line. That must be accepted before all of the "and here is what else Trump would do" arguments become relevant.

That's how dichotomous choices work, and that's what voting in the US is! You're still giving your tacit support by not voting. Inaction is not absolving and is still an active choice, you just view it as something it isn't.

Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Feb 11, 2024

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Raiad posted:

At this point, I think that we should put "voting reforms" in the same bucket of things that are not feasibly possible, such as a non-conservative supreme court or not supporting genocide in Gaza. This carrot loses value when it is a transparent false promise.

Ranked choice voting has passed in several states and can be pushed further through direct democracy in the form of ballot measures. Working to force the Dems to run better candidates is how we got people like the squad into the house, even if they still haven't been able to get a ton done. There's no reason this can't be extended to other offices and RCV to more elections. Defeatism is lazy.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Probably Magic posted:

emanding Middle Easterners in this country to "recognize" Biden as the "better option" is about as gross as when it was demanded of rape victims four years ago, so I'm excited to see it be demanded of trans people in 2028.

Cool of you to bring us up as a future one when that's a very obvious difference between the two candidates, one which trump has only grown harsher on in the interim four years. You don't give a poo poo about us and if you're also trans then you're just loving stupid.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:

Things can change. In a world where Biden adopted all of Trump's anti-trans positions precisely, would it still be imperative on you to support him?

Yes I would still vote for Biden because there are many other policy differences which would continue to be important. I'm not so selfish I can't see past my own group's interest. It's not like we got basically anything from anyone nationally until Biden anyway.


I would also redouble the work already I do to get better candidates and to pass ranked choice voting and I would additionally press Massachusetts to take additional protective state level actions

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Probably Magic posted:

Tell me, what makes you think the trans vote is so much less expendable to the Democratic Party calculus than the Muslim vote. What makes you look at how indifferent the Democratic Party is to Palestinian suffering and think, "Ah, that could never be the trans vote."


I don't because I'm very familiar with them not giving a single poo poo about us and I'm not stupid. That's been the case for most of my life, Obama didn't even support gay marriage for a long time. That's why I do things on top of voting. This isn't the gotcha you think it is. Do you think I don't think about how precarious the victories we've eeked out over the last decades are?

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Main Paineframe posted:

.

Hell, even among groups that think that Israel is committing genocide, the campaign in Gaza until Hamas is destroyed is still a more popular outcome for Gaza than immediate ceasefire, and maintaining or increasing aid to Israel is more popular than decreasing it.

I agree with the rest of your post but I don't see those cross tabs in the document? The percentages under the 'describes self as very liberal" basically work out such that there are at least some people who hold those two views but don't imply that is the majority view.

I would like to talk to someone who holds both of those positions though because is the idea just that it's worth it or something?

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

A Meatslab posted:


Why is it obvious Democrats are slated to lose? Gaza, immigration issues, and Biden's age absolutely albatrosses around their collective necks, but how does that mean they are absolutely gping to lose?

It doesn't but people ITT are so (understandably but frustratingly) focused on the dems issues that they don't step back and see the issues that face the Republicans when low info voters actually realize trump is the candidate.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Majorian posted:

Do you have evidence that those accomplishments will drive voters to the polls? Is he even running on these accomplishments? So far he doesn't seem to be.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2024/02/04/remarks-by-president-biden-at-a-campaign-event-las-vegas-nv/

He hits on all of these issues in his stump speech here and I assume it's pretty repetitive elsewhere as they usually are.

Main Paineframe posted:

60% of liberals think Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, but only 27% think there should be an immediate ceasefire, while 42% think the war has to end with the destruction of Hamas in some form or fashion. There's got to be a fair chunk of people who think it's a genocide but that there shouldn't be a ceasefire. Though rather than self-identified liberals, I was personally looking at Dem/Biden voters and 18-29 groups, both of which are admittedly slightly less sure that it's a genocide.

As for how people can put those positions together, I think I can get an idea of it even if they don't agree: they believe that Hamas has to be destroyed, and that Israel has the fundamental right to invade Gaza and destroy Hamas in retaliation for Oct 7th. They wish that Israel wouldn't be quite so blatantly going out of their way to cause needless civilian casualties, but their desired result isn't "stop the war", it's "convince Israel to stop shooting quite so many civilians and focus entirely on Hamas".

What the gently caress the politoon is already pretty distasteful as an av buy but with that text it's such blatant antisemitic confounding of Israeli crimes and Judaism.

Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Feb 11, 2024

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Majorian posted:

II think stump speeches might not be the best way for him to communicate to his voter base, given his recent spate of bizarre gaffes. (mixing up Egypt and Mexico, etc) Those gaffes tend to become the story, not whatever he's promising in those speeches.

You're asking if he's campaigning on it, not if people are covering it extensively, don't move the goalposts. I'm sure he's also buying ads about it and doing interviews about it but I try to insulate myself from ads.

Majorian posted:

I have watched his speeches, yes. I occasionally check mainstream media TV outlets, podcasts, newspapers, etc. The story coming out of Biden's stump speeches has been, "He's garbling his words horrifically and seems way too old and senile to run," not, "He's promising X, Y, and Z."

Him being a lovely candidate and getting accordingly lovely coverage is different than him not running on his accomplishments. You're shifting the focus.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

FLIPADELPHIA posted:

Equating the lovely, unjust oppression trans people experience in the US to the literal massacre of tens of thousands of innocent people in Gaza in order to shame people into voting for a candidate actively supporting that massacre is not a good look IMO.

It's really sad to me that people I probably agree with on 99% of topics are having to resort to these sorts of rhetorical moves. And I don't mean sad in a condescending way, it actually is depressing- it just sucks so bad that this is the position Biden has put us in. Makes me hate him even more.

It's not equating, it's pointing out something which would become worse under one candidate and not under another. The genocide support is a given in this one.

If only throwing us under the bus in this election would save them, I'd do that too and fight in different ways here instead, but it won't.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

FistEnergy posted:

this is an interesting post because it's literally the exact same logical thread some of us are using for Biden and Gaza/Middle East. If the threat to trans people happening right now takes precedence over possible future betrayal, then so does the actual genocide being done in Gaza right now.

Saying that Trump will be an ardent supporter of Israel as they continue their genocide of the Palestinians is a hypothetical issue is like saying the Sun will rise is a hypothetical. It takes ignoring all available evidence and prior experience. Given that's literally what he did while in office and has promised to do in new and disturbing ways since Oct 7!

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Majorian posted:

I'm asking what specifically you think he will do to make the situation in Gaza worse, not whether or not his rhetoric is pro-Israel, pro-Zionism, anti-Palestinian, etc. I'm not trolling; I'd like an answer to my question.

Let's see who the people who are actively genociding the West Bank want in the Oval Office:



Hmm.

Let's see who Itamir "Drive out all the inhabitants of the land" Ben Gvir prefers:

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/the-israeli-firebrand-driving-netanyahu-further-to-the-right-dd9e8113

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Majorian posted:

That's not an answer to my question. My question wasn't, "Who do far-rightists in Israel want to win the 2024 election?" It was, "What would Trump do that would be worse than Biden on this issue?"

He's avoided commenting too much directly but what he has said is he would bar any Gazan refugees, which alone is pretty bad but I don't think has a big effect because no one can get out anyway.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/4331958-trump-mixed-messages-on-how-hed-handle-israel-hamas-war/

He has said that he would deport foreign students who protest in favor of palestine:

quote:

Trump has pledged at recent campaign events that his administration would “revoke the student visas of radical anti-American and antisemitic foreigners at our colleges and universities, and we will send them straight back home.”

We can look at his past behavior wrt aid for Palestine:

quote:

The former president had a thorny relationship with Palestinian leaders while he was in office. In 2018, the Trump administration said it would not spend roughly $200 million in funding set aside for aid to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. And the Trump administration’s Middle East peace plan released in 2018 infuriated Palestinian leaders, as it aligned largely with what Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had laid out.

We can look at what his surrogates say about potential policy, as well:

quote:

Gen. Keith Kellogg, who served on the National Security Council during the Trump administration, said in an interview that he would have advised for a “much harder approach” than the Biden administration is taking in terms of aid into Gaza.

“I think you have to look at it across the board holistically, and then the president would have looked at it holistically,” Kellogg said.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Majorian posted:

That's all pretty vague as it pertains to his handling of the issue, though - and overall pretty similar to Biden's own handling of the situation. Biden has "paused" aid to the UNRWA based on blatantly false claims by the Israeli government.

I see you suffer from a literal complete ability to make inferences. It must be really exhausting to never know what anyone is ever going to do, always being surprised by events which keep reoccurring in slightly new ways.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Jeff the Mediocre posted:

Give the thread title and the Super Bowl tonight, wouldn't Nuffle be the most applicable chaos god instead of one of the lesser four?

Also given the two candidate's ages, I wonder what the parties would do if one or both pass away before the election. Guess we could have Kamala v whoever trump pics at VP

If it's after their respective conventions, I think that's the only available option basically.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

KillHour posted:

And it's cool that you're mad about it, but nobody is going to get permabanned and I think most people here are going to contextualize it differently.

Also, if you're mad at people conflating Israel with Jews, you should be mad at Israel for screaming from the rooftops that that they're doing this in the name of Jews everywhere. You're technically correct, and we all know you're correct, but pithy slogans are more useful than correctness when doing propaganda.

"you're technically correct it's hardcore bigotry but hardcore bigotry is more useful"

listen to yourself

also Kchama has repeatedly expressed their disgust over how Israel conflates the two.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Doctor Yiff posted:

I remember the op-eds flying around just after Trump won in 2016 floating the idea that Hilary lost because the Democrats were too protective of trans people's rights, so I'm more than a little skeptical of being used as a rhetorical tool to shame people into voting for Biden.

Interesting that you think that this time the op-eds would interpret people sitting it out with wanting the party to move left on the issue. Surely THIS time that leftists step back from the process, the establishment will finally listen to our silence.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Gripweed posted:

I'm sorry, but this is nuts. You get that this is nuts, right? You are not morally obligated to vote for a genocidaire. You are in fact morally obligated to not do that. You do not pick between the lesser of two genocides, you refuse the question. The inaction of not endorsing genocide is always morally superior to the action of endorsing a genocide. If genocide is inevitable then at the very least do not stain your own soul by giving it your stamp of approval.

You don't get to refuse the question. Inaction is a choice you make and it stains your soul just the same. You cleanse yourself by doing works in other areas to make sure this isn't the choice ever presented again. But not voting is giving half your stamp of approval to each candidate, as is voting for a third party in our current structure.

The inability for posters to come to that same viewpoint is why this conversation is pointless. Some people think you can actually practically opt out.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

zoux posted:

You may or may have not heard that there was an attempted mass shooting at Lakewood Church in Houston (Osteen's church) on Sunday. The discourse on this one is going to be intolerable, as the perpetrator ended up being a trans woman with "Free Palestine" written on her AR-15. She was stopped by "good guys with guns", so this will perfectly slot into the conservative narrative on guns and mass shootings. (That the off duty cops returning fire likely shot a child who is not expected to survive will be omitted of course).

Fox is already visibly erect over it



Really not looking forward to the hideous poo poo I'm likely not going to be able to avoid reading over the next few days.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Senate Cum Dump posted:

That's rather dismissive and just wrong at face value. He could resign, party leadership could pressure him to step down.

"Better things aren't possible" is certainly a take and one that I don't think will be persuasive, electorally.

I'm sure replacing the candidate in February will definitely go smoothly and not lead to months of "Democrats in disarray" articles.

Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Nonsense posted:

The New York Times is talking about Biden’s brain because he refused to take a cognitive test. One President Trump passed with flying colors while being 200 lbs.

I don't see the Times mentioning this, just foxnews and the Post? Though they directly quote a briefing question response. If this is accurate it is kind of weird as a basic cognitive test is pretty standard for patients who are 65+

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Kagrenak
Sep 8, 2010

Nucleic Acids posted:

I really do not care about the demographics of his district at all, any level of support for Israel is a moral atrocity.

Look when you use the same level of outrage to discuss the types of statements this guy made as one would use to to describe the bombing of hundreds of Innocents you just look like a fool. It's still a moral failing on his part and makes him a lovely person but to describe his words in these terms does nothing for our cause.

How would you describe Ben-Gvir type statements if you're already describing this guy as psychotic and committing moral atrocities? Why should someone listen more attentively when you've so quickly reached the top of the rhetorical ladder?

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