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The Dave posted:I firmly love the ending with the assumption they are going to land the plane in part 3. They've given me enough that I don't need 1:1 recreations of stuff like Aeris's death. We live in a post OG world it just wouldn't have the same impact, now they're at least doing something to keep the blood flowing. Don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched. I’m happy to see twists and turns instead of 1:1 recreations but only if they’re well-executed, and if something is reliant on future payoff then it doesn’t work on its own. I listened to Max’s theory and I think a lot of his evidence re: what’s happening with Aerith is wishful thinking, so I’m not convinced. It’s a neat idea at least.
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Mar 28, 2024 13:49
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I'm kinda just assuming once Cloud gets his poo poo all sorted and stops being 'hollow' the materia will get filled up too.
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Mar 28, 2024 13:50
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The Clear Materia is a pretty strong parallel to Hollow Cloud, so that’s a reasonable guess.
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Mar 28, 2024 13:51
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Anyway I expect game 3 to be much like games 1 in 2 in that some things will land and some things won't but also much like games 1 and 2 I will probably love 95% of it.
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Mar 28, 2024 13:52
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Pollyanna posted:Don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched. I’m happy to see twists and turns instead of 1:1 recreations but only if they’re well-executed, and if something is reliant on future payoff then it doesn’t work on its own. I consider everything during the end of Rebirth well executed and if self contained I think it's great. The reveal of the Gorgotten Capital gave me chills with the music, the Sanctuary was incredible. I loved how they forced you to walk and listen to Aerith pray. I thought the death approach fit with all the world fuckery and Cloud having going through it all of Chapter 13-14, I just don't know exactly what it means yet. I think the last scene is really gutting and sad which is what it should be for that moment. So I'm not relying on Part 3 to enjoy Part 2, Part 3 will just shape the overall thoughts on how it played out and it will be hard to think of Part 2 as a singular thing after Part 3 is out (imo).
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Mar 28, 2024 14:07
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:You can speak only for yourself. I have yet to see any universal dislike of the ending, only anticipation for what happens next part 3. I really expect to see this scene in particular in part 3. For what it's worth the ending got me emotionally. I knew what was coming with Aerith, but I didn't want to go forward because I'd become so attached to her and wasn't ready to say goodbye. It wasn't perfect, I could have used a bit more time to digest it rather than running straight into a boss rush mode, but overall I was really pleased with it, and it got me to feel the overall emotions they were going for. Tifa misses her BFF, and I'm heartbroken for her.
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Mar 28, 2024 14:19
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they certainly knew how to build suspense for the big moment if nothing else. like a straight hour of “here it comes! here it comes, rear end in a top hat! uh-oh! uh-ohhhhhh!”
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Mar 28, 2024 14:32
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we're like five minutes away from people being burnt out on serious fan theories and just going for chadley and kyrie pulling all the strings as a meme any second now
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Mar 28, 2024 14:37
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As someone who beat the game yesterday, my main disappointment with chapter 14 is how quick you just sort of run through the sleeping forest and the forgotten capital after how big and expanded the Temple is. That part of the game is this slow, somber build up in the og that is just sort of replaced with a walk and talk and a straight corridor thats given a single panorama before the ghosts show up and it's go mode. Also doesn't help that the final Sephiroth fight kept bugging out on me when he'd do his final attack. I know you still take damage during Synergy Abilities, but I thought I had enough time to use one in-between the lasers... instead what happened is he triggered the insta kill and the game failed to recognize I was dead because it happened in the animation or something. Happened to me twice before I realized it was supposed to be an instant kill on round 3 before finally doing it on round 4. Hard to focus on the narrative decisions when you're pissed off about the final boss and rewatching the cutscenes before that phase because they take place in the battle dimension and can't be skipped.
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Mar 28, 2024 14:38
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like, i KNOW that would be hosed for pacing to make that part longer after the temple, but it's still a little disappointing
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Mar 28, 2024 14:41
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I think the ending was good regardless of where they take it in the next game. It was really ballsy to depict loss and grief from the perspective of a main character not processing those things, and it made the moment hit hard in a different way from the original game. I wonder if people are confusing themselves into thinking Cloud’s nonchalant behavior at the end is supposed to be reassuring as opposed to alarming— you can hear Tifa’s heart break when Cloud just stands up and says “let’s get going” by the lake and he’s seemingly oblivious to this. Having Tifa be the one most viscerally suffering from grief as opposed to Cloud is great, it broadens the focus from just the protagonist losing his love interest to emphasize what Aerith meant to the group as a whole, how much everyone had come to rely on her and how lost they are now. Cid asking “what did Aerith even do?” and everyone just being at a loss for an answer, unable to be sure if her death even had any meaning. Meanwhile Cloud gives a casual goodbye to an Aerith only he can see, promises he’ll stop Sephiroth, and walks right back into Sephiroth’s hands like he never even left. Like I expected that I’d be sad if Aerith died again but the ending made me sad about Aerith’s death in ways I didn’t expect and that imo is a big accomplishment The only thing I’m not too hot on is the Bizzaro Sephiroth fight. There are parts of it I like, the ambience when Zack is thrown out and Cloud is left alone with this ominous monstrosity is really good, but it felt like they tossed in a big bombastic climax out of obligation more than anything Augus fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 14:52
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Augus posted:Really good post I was typing up something similar, but you put it way better than I was going to. Rebirth in general really hones in on fleshing out both Cloud’s perception of things, as well as the nature of the planet and the Lifestream - and how those two tie together. I really think this is just ratcheting up the tension for a massive catharsis moment when Cloud gets his poo poo together in part three, hitting way harder than it did on disc 2 of the original.
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Mar 28, 2024 15:23
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Augus posted:I wonder if people are confusing themselves into thinking Cloud’s nonchalant behavior at the end is supposed to be reassuring as opposed to alarming— you can hear Tifa’s heart break when Cloud just stands up and says “let’s get going” by the lake and he’s seemingly oblivious to this. This depends entirely on whatever the gently caress is even going on. If this was being played straight and it was clear that the same events of the OG played out and now Cloud’s gone so far off the deep end that he’s hallucinating Aerith when she isn’t actually there, that’s genuinely spooky and hosed up. That would actually be really loving cool and an interesting expansion on the mindfuckery Cloud goes through up until North Crater. The problem is that I don’t think Cloud is hallucinating her! Not in the psych ward way, at least. The one thing that’s clear in the ending is that Aerith hasn’t just ceased to exist - Nanaki clearly reacts to her presence, and all the glitches and sky tears and multiverse poo poo imply that there’s some cross-dimensional bleeding going on. That undermines the Batshit Cloud interpretation. Honestly I would have vastly preferred a straight “Cloud is in denial about failing to save Aerith and he’s gone totally insane and thinks she’s still alive” thing, but that’s not what we got.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:05
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Yeah, at this point it seems surprisingly unclear what's going on with Aerith, even if I'm leaning 90% of the way towards "she's dead in this timeline and that's her ghost or something." Personally I just kind of want to know what's up with Zack at the moment, if he somehow ended up in the Beagle/remake timeline or is he now in yet another doomed timeline or what.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:14
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Pollyanna posted:This depends entirely on whatever the gently caress is even going on. If this was being played straight and it was clear that the same events of the OG played out and now Cloud’s gone so far off the deep end that he’s hallucinating Aerith when she isn’t actually there, that’s genuinely spooky and hosed up. That would actually be really loving cool and an interesting expansion on the mindfuckery Cloud goes through up until North Crater. Consider the following: That's not Aerith in the ending. That's Jenova.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:14
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I am petty sure it is intended to be her ghost. Like in the original FF7, her death is the trigger for the "Aerith's ghost" thing to appear in the church in Midgar, even if you can't go back there until late in the game. "Aerith's ghost is hanging around" is, again, 100% canonical to the original game even if it is in a small way (until the ending where it is in a big way).
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Mar 28, 2024 16:17
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the way aerith "woke up" and looked at cloud definitely felt like it was animated to look eerie as hell a24rith is my headcanon
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Mar 28, 2024 16:19
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Pollyanna posted:The problem is that I don’t think Cloud is hallucinating her! Not in the psych ward way, at least. The one thing that’s clear in the ending is that Aerith hasn’t just ceased to exist - Nanaki clearly reacts to her presence, and all the glitches and sky tears and multiverse poo poo imply that there’s some cross-dimensional bleeding going on. That undermines the Batshit Cloud interpretation. no it doesn't. because whether the Aerith Cloud's seeing is a lifestream ghost (it's probably this) or a vision from another dimension, or just a straight-up hallucination, it doesn't actually change the fact that Cloud's behavior is very unnatural and off-putting, and it's presented as such to the player. His friends are around him heartbroken and crying, and he's just chilling. He doesn't do anything to comfort Tifa and in fact actively makes the situation even more painful for her. Whether he's literally off in his own little world or just figuratively, it still remains that Cloud is completely alienated from the rest of the party's grief. Augus fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 16:25
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I don't at all buy the "Jenova impersonating Aerith" theory. Why would she look so sad when she turns away from Cloud if he can't even see her face? Why would she say a sad goodbye to the departing plane with nobody there to hear her if she was just Jenova impersonating Aerith to manipulate Cloud?kliras posted:the way aerith "woke up" and looked at cloud definitely felt like it was animated to look eerie as hell One of the things that really sticks out to me in the ending is how uncanny and uncomfortable both Cloud and Aerith's facial expressions are during all of the post-stabbing scenes at the Forgotten Capital. It's so unsettling.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:31
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Augus posted:no it doesn't. because whether the Aerith Cloud's seeing is a lifestream ghost (it's probably this) or a vision from another dimension, or just a straight-up hallucination, it doesn't actually change the fact that Cloud's behavior is very unnatural and off-putting, and it's presented as such to the player. His friends are around him heartbroken and crying, and he's just chilling. He doesn't do anything to comfort Tifa and in fact actively makes the situation even more painful for her. Whether he's literally off in his own little word or just figuratively, it still remains that Cloud is completely alienated from the rest of the party's grief. Yeah, this is important. Cloud is brainbroken no matter what happened with Aerith. He is seemingly entirely ignorant of his friends and their concerns and suffering. He barely looks at Tifa. He's acting casual and calm around them, while he's sitting alone mumbling Sephiroth lines to himself and hiding that he has the Black Materia. Barret basically goes "gently caress, man, we're trusting you, please don't mess this up" and Cloud just goes "It'll be fiiiiiiine" even as we, the audience, know it is absolutely not fine. Even if Aerith is alive in another dimension, Cloud's behavior is still bizarre and unnatural and utterly divorced from the people around him.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:37
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My wild theory is that Cloud actually did block Sephiroth’s attack in “this” universe, but when he uno reverse’d by imposing a reality from a world where Cloud couldn’t save her he accidentally hosed himself, because instead of killing remake!Aerith he shunted her into the space between worlds and gave her a similar status as Sephiroth himself has. While she doesn’t have the benefit of a bunch of augmented ex-SOLDIERS that to hijack from the negative zone to directly influence events, she can still communicate with Cloud (and presumably the lifestream via the aerith who *was* killed) via the hollow materia, or some other mechanic.Harrow posted:I don't at all buy the "Jenova impersonating Aerith" theory. Why would she look so sad when she turns away from Cloud if he can't even see her face? Why would she say a sad goodbye to the departing plane with nobody there to hear her if she was just Jenova impersonating Aerith to manipulate Cloud? I also don’t buy it’s secretly Jenova, because A) Jenova has always been a pretty explicitly physical existence, she’s never done the invisible apparition thing, B) Nanaki clocks her presence as Aerith, not Jenova, which would be loving weird if it was Jenova, C) the one big time in the original Jenova disguised herself as Tifa, she immediately dropped the act to stunt on cloud the moment he was out of sight, because like the one bit of characterization we have of her is that she’s a catty bitch who loves to gently caress with people Babysitter Super Sleuth fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 16:37
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Yeah I don’t think it matters whether or not Cloud is making it up whole cloth, or He Can See Dead People. He’s still falling out of reality, mentally. Also notice when Aerith opens her eyes as Cloud is cradling her - she’s surrounded by green Lifestream bits, the same as when anything else in the game dies. Definitely leaning toward Aerith being a Lifestream ghost.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:38
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yeah cloud losing his marbles and the game doing a fairly straightforward job of showing it is separate from the whole multiverse of materia i'm pretty checked out on mentally and narratively it's cool that they respect your intelligence enough to show someone acting erratically without completely beating you over the head with it
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Mar 28, 2024 16:43
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also the first real scene between Cloud and Tifa in Rebirth is her angrily challenging one of his delusions and the last scene between them is her quietly accepting whatever he's doing because she's too emotionally defeated to even try anymore
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Mar 28, 2024 16:48
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I think that Aerith could already somewhat see between the timelines in the same way Sephiroth can and that the stuff that happened between the end of chapter 13 and the end of the game gave Cloud that ability as well. Or maybe refined it much better than before since some of the flashes he would get in remake and rebirth were from things that hadn't happened yet, not his fractured memories. It would make sense that Cloud's connection to Sephiroth could also carry over that ability, even in an imperfect form. I saw someone point out somewhere that like a month before rebirth came out they patched remake to specifically change the line Aerith says about the sky at the very end of the last cutscene before the credits roll and that it might indicate that she can see the same tear that Cloud sees at the end of Rebirth.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:52
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Just finished the game last night and I can say without a doubt that the entire thing owned from start to finish. What a game man. FF7 was never my favourite Final Fantasy but FF7 Rebirth definitely is
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Mar 28, 2024 18:13
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Finally finished this and I loved 95% of it. It's an expansive, legit 100 hour RPG in a way Final Fantasy hasn't been in a long rear end time. Best FF since the PS2 generation at least, great battle system, sense of humor, visually amazing, all that stuff. But the ending just left me kind of cold. Pretty much all of Remake and Rebirth were leading up to this question of defying fate and what would happen with Aerith at the Forgotten Capital, and when it came time to answer the question it was presented in this weird obscurative way that denies any emotional impact in the moment because you don't really know what the gently caress is going on. After the credits roll I think it seems clear she died (minus any multiverse bullshit) and Cloud is just too broke brained to accept it. Which, ok, but having to reason backwards and puzzle it out renders it kind of inert. Making it all about Cloud and his (mis)perception of things also takes away from Aerith going knowingly to her death and sacrificing herself for her friends and the planet and all that. Maybe they'll pay all of this off in Mideel in four years, who knows.
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Mar 28, 2024 18:44
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One thing I expected there to be a bit more payoff (and perhaps I missed it) was the whole dynamic between Cloud and Tifa and his false memories of Nibelheim. Specifically, Cloud isn't sure Tifa is real and Tifa knows Cloud's wrong about his memories but seems willing to cover for him as he becomes more and more unraveled. There ended up being a scene in Nibelheim where Cloud remembers who Zach is, and then imagines him as the trooper getting washed away to his death in the river. Cloud then tells Tifa she must've known this entire time and Tifa tells him yeah, she just didn't want to upset him and that they should totally keep it from Aerith until Tifa can find the right time to tell her. I spent the entire game waiting for that to come back around as a reason for Cloud to not trust Tifa given this apparent lie after he either remembers a bit more about WHAT really happened, and feed into his delusion that Tifa isn't really who she says she is or whatever. I wonder if that'll come up in the third game with the big ole "Tifa puts Cloud's psyche back together" sequence?
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Mar 28, 2024 19:24
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OneMoreTime posted:One thing I expected there to be a bit more payoff (and perhaps I missed it) was the whole dynamic between Cloud and Tifa and his false memories of Nibelheim. Specifically, Cloud isn't sure Tifa is real and Tifa knows Cloud's wrong about his memories but seems willing to cover for him as he becomes more and more unraveled. There ended up being a scene in Nibelheim where Cloud remembers who Zach is, and then imagines him as the trooper getting washed away to his death in the river. Cloud then tells Tifa she must've known this entire time and Tifa tells him yeah, she just didn't want to upset him and that they should totally keep it from Aerith until Tifa can find the right time to tell her. Tifa tells Aerith, if you get either of their dates you see it.
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Mar 28, 2024 19:26
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ImpAtom posted:Tifa tells Aerith, if you get either of their dates you see it. That's what I get for getting the bro date with Barrett! Thanks for that, I'll go back and watch those.
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Mar 28, 2024 19:27
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I think Cloud almost killing Tifa in Gongaga and their talk after put an end to any doubts he had about her.
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Mar 28, 2024 19:27
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ImpAtom posted:Tifa tells Aerith, if you get either of their dates you see it. More specifically, she tells her that he remembers Zack but that he still got the "sequence" wrong. Or at least implies that part, I think. It's a little crazy to me that Tifa hasn't quite put together how Cloud was able to remember all this (or at least they haven't shown that she has) but I suppose she has much more pressing issues to worry about.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:09
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Considering how much Cloud starts parroting Sephiroth I'd imagine she's more worried that he knows the events because Sephiroth knows.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:21
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I kind of wish Cloud didn't remember Zack because it would have made him showing up for the final fight really funny and awkward. "Hey Cloud!" "Hey.....you!"
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Mar 28, 2024 20:25
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IcePhoenix posted:More specifically, she tells her that he remembers Zack but that he still got the "sequence" wrong. Or at least implies that part, I think. I think Cloud's... Cloudness kind of overshadows the obvious answer. Since the first she (is aware) she saw Cloud, he was dressed as a SOLDIER, acting like a SOLDIER, carrying Zack's bigass sword, and in general there's no reason for her to doubt he was actually a SOLDIER because he's got the skills to pay the bills.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:25
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I imagine the Cloud/Tifa stuff is probably gonna reach a boiling point at the first north crater visit.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:29
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I want Cloud to go even crazier and start remembering the events of Crisis Core, but with him in Zack's role. Cloud: "And then I had to fight a guy named Genesis!" Barret: "Alright, now I know you're makin poo poo up!"
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Mar 28, 2024 20:31
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Rhonne posted:I want Cloud to go even crazier and start remembering the events of Crisis Core, but with him in Zack's role. "No, seriously, the Planet has a personification which is like a hot armored lady named Minerva and I totally beat her in a one-on-one fight!" "..." "That was right after I spent a while helping out Yuffie!" "I've literally never met you before." "Come on Yuffie! You remember all the great times! You stole my materia!" "... well, that does SOUND like something I'd do..."
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Mar 28, 2024 20:35
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I just finished the Shinra Manor sequence, and the box minigame was mildly annoying, but what was really annoying was having to fight four bosses in a row before I could leave the plot sequence, including one who might have actually been fun if Yin and Yang didn't throw out instant-kill moves if they don't like how you're beating them, such that I had to use Revival Earrings to get through that one.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:35
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my one real disappointment with this game is that the actual manor part of shinra manor is completely blocked off.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:37
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