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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

The Dave posted:

I'm having a hard time agreeing with my own thoughts but right now I'm going with:

they wanted an out to not do a 1:1 remake, and wanted to lean on their expanded universe more -- which is turning into having a reason to include more Zack and Aerith.

It's not like Sephiroth won the OG and they need to figure out how to stop that from happening. They're still going to win. It seems like Advent Children and Dirge are still going to be the conclusions to the story. It's not a sequel, which is what I was bought into, but it's really a celebration of everything FF7 that has been done and they're using a remake of the original game as a way to anchor that.

You can turn and say well doing all the whisper stuff in Remake just to allow for fanservice moments is not my cup of god drat tea and you that would be a completely valid take if that's how this all turns out.

Now I could see how people feel they were robbed of the Aeris scene if she is going to end up dead anyway, but I personally find all the Cloud psychosis stuff to be a fresh take on how everything is being presented.



I honestly don't feel like we were robbed of it. We get the same scene, in the same context, and in terms of surprise and shock, "cut to the sword and her blood pooling on the ground" hits basically the same mark in terms of being a surprise. The blood in a game that is (largely) bloodless really stands out and adds an element of physicality to her death that wasn't there in the original game.

I do think it's fair to say the funeral was changed to be more about Cloud, which I'm iffy on, but I think (especially since this is the middle game of a trilogy), ending on the emphasis that Cloud is /absolutely hosed insane/ is interesting because it really drives home the downer element of the ending. Aerith is dead, everyone is miserable, and Cloud is basically a walking time bomb. I also am pretty sure we're going to get the full funeral in the next game in Cloud's lifestream flashbacks or something.

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The Dave
Sep 9, 2003

Yeah I would agree with all of that.

I'm excited to watch reactions from the Cloud/Zack 2v1 at the end.

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal

Harrow posted:

I've got one of those brains with super high levels of both curiosity and impatience. Add to that all the expectations I have based on my own love of the source material and I think not knowing (in broad strokes at least) where things were going would've actually lessened my enjoyment (purely on a personal level, this is absolutely just a me thing). Hard to say I guess.

This is me. I won’t watch the ending until I actually get to it, but knowing the high level overview prevents me from spending the entire game rushing to the end to scratch that itch, and spend more time vibing with my video game friends.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

The scene I want to see the reactions most to actually has nothing to do with the ending.
I *need* to see responses to Red XIII's disguise introduction. I need it like a physical thing. It is up there with the DMCV hat dance in terms of video game scenes for me.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Feb 28, 2024

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!
Without talking to any specific plot point, I think where my disconnect comes in is that I don't understand the logic behind adding mystery to the core plot if the results are the same. Maybe I am just lacking in a creative mind or something.

I totally get putting in work to expand and give more depth to characters, locations, scenes, and story beats. That, to me, is the exciting part of these games. The PS1, while technologically leaps and bounds beyond the SNES, is incredibly limited by today's standards. So a remake to give parts of the game more time to breath and give more color and flavor feels loving cool.

IDK. Maybe I'm just old man yelling at Clouds. (hah!) In the end, I guess these are a lot of the same complaints I had with Remake. I like the depth added to the story, but every time they add the "mystery," my eyes just glaze over.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Mordiceius posted:

Without talking to any specific plot point, I think where my disconnect comes in is that I don't understand the logic behind adding mystery to the core plot if the results are the same. Maybe I am just lacking in a creative mind or something.

I totally get putting in work to expand and give more depth to characters, locations, scenes, and story beats. That, to me, is the exciting part of these games. The PS1, while technologically leaps and bounds beyond the SNES, is incredibly limited by today's standards. So a remake to give parts of the game more time to breath and give more color and flavor feels loving cool.

IDK. Maybe I'm just old man yelling at Clouds. (hah!) In the end, I guess these are a lot of the same complaints I had with Remake. I like the depth added to the story, but every time they add the "mystery," my eyes just glaze over.

The easiest way I can describe it is:
Plots aren't just the locations, scenes, characters and story beats. They are also the emotions those things evoke. Of those, things like surprise/shock/anticipation/tension are some of the most valuable but also some of the hardest to capture, since by necessity they are something you only really get one shot at hitting the mark. Obviously upon a replay or reread or whatever the same impact isn't there but the echo of the initial impact tends to remain with people.

When you're dealing with a remake you inevitably run into the problem of how to capture those emotions again for an audience who knows things are coming, and the impact that can have on the rest of the story. Sometimes you can depend on the original story but other times doing that can drag things down for people, especially if you're expanding other material. (Or in the case of Remake, spreading it out over multiple game.) The mystery and buildup and anticipation means that even die-hard FF7 fans have the same sense of building tension and drama, rather than them sitting there waiting to get to the Fireworks Factory.

FF7 is a story-heavy game so it has to build around the characters and plot. In comparison something like the Resident Evil remakes are more plot-light so they do things that gently caress with the player's expectations, such as moving traps around, changing weaknesses, adding extra scares and so-on. The intent is the same, to add tension, surprise and mystery to an experience the player is already familiar with, with the hope that by the end there will be a greater emotional impact to the story than if you just knew everything that was going to happen beforehand.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Feb 28, 2024

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!

ImpAtom posted:

The easiest way I can describe it is:

Yeah, that's all absolutely fair. I don't disagree with you. I guess, for me, I feel like if you're going to add that mystery and tension, then you need to stick the landing. I don't like the ending to Remake. From the stuff I watched, I don't really like the ending to Rebirth either.

The first 95% - mostly cool, good, neat. Like it. The last 5% - lame. I don't like it.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Mordiceius posted:

Yeah, that's all absolutely fair. I don't disagree with you. I guess, for me, I feel like if you're going to add that mystery and tension, then you need to stick the landing. I don't like the ending to Remake. From the stuff I watched, I don't really like the ending to Rebirth either.

The first 95% - mostly cool, good, neat. Like it. The last 5% - lame. I don't like it.

Yeah, that's fair. If it doesn't stick the landing for you, it doesn't. I honestly am not big on the meta-stuff but I do like the "Cloud's hosed up brain" stuff, so it kind of evens out to me more than Remake which was just the meta stuff. In general I like Rebirth playing up how absolutely hosed in the head Cloud is, it's one of my favorite elements of the original.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you
Wonder how the Cloud starts losing his mind and beats the poo poo out of Aeirth scene goes. I am guessing more disturbing than the original.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

MonsterEnvy posted:

Wonder how the Cloud starts losing his mind and beats the poo poo out of Aeirth scene goes. I am guessing more disturbing than the original.

It is more disturbing in a different way. Aerith grabs the Black Materia and starts to run away from Cloud who follows after her sort of half-begging/half-demanding the Black Materia in this really creepy uncomfortable way, sounding more and more desperate, insisting he has to have it, and when Aerith finally turns it over in desperation he sort of... scampers over to Sephiroth and offers it like he's a dog expecting a treat.

I genuinely like it more than the original scene. It's *really* uncomfortable to see Cloud's personality and dignity stripped away while he keeps this air of 'everything is normal' and Aerith is clearly terrified. They genuinely go for a Renfield thing with him and it really works better than him just attacking Aerith.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Feb 28, 2024

The Dave
Sep 9, 2003

They also did a good job making the whole Cait Sith 2 thing less ridiculous. Still mildly ridiculous.

VagueRant
May 24, 2012
In an adaptation that's 50% sensible, nuanced, interesting thoughts like "Aside from serious mental illness and trauma, how does Tifa not confront him about his lies?" and the answer is by adding a more understandable mutual distrust

and 50% what if we do the most anime camera angles, play the loudest emotional music, remove all subtext and have the stoic warrior turn into the joker and monologue about guilt for ten minutes.

I have absolutely no idea where Red's voice thing fits and it's FASCINATING.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

VagueRant posted:

In an adaptation that's 50% sensible, nuanced, interesting thoughts like "Aside from serious mental illness and trauma, how does Tifa not confront him about his lies?" and the answer is by adding a more understandable mutual distrust

and 50% what if we do the most anime camera angles, play the loudest emotional music, remove all subtext and have the stoic warrior turn into the joker and monologue about guilt for ten minutes.

I have absolutely no idea where Red's voice thing fits and it's FASCINATING.

The Red's voice thing makes perfect sense and I genuinely love it. Like just him going "Yeah, of course I was talking like that, I'm already a red dog with a flaming tail, I didn't want you treating me like a child on top of that" is 100% logical, fits with the original characterization, and plays into how he's portrayed throughout the game. It's up there with the Gi Tribe thing for "This makes total sense and I have no objections."

In general painting Red as "A complete loving dorky teenager pretending to be older than he is" also makes complete sense and helps give him a defined role and personality in the crew.

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!
Someone pretending to be something they're not?! Heh. Would never happen in FF7.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

ImpAtom posted:

Yeah, that's fair. If it doesn't stick the landing for you, it doesn't. I honestly am not big on the meta-stuff but I do like the "Cloud's hosed up brain" stuff, so it kind of evens out to me more than Remake which was just the meta stuff. In general I like Rebirth playing up how absolutely hosed in the head Cloud is, it's one of my favorite elements of the original.
All I've allowed myself to see is the very last scene with cloud and gang leaving on cid's plane and cloud saying farewell to other-aerith.

Did his clear materia turn black or does he also have the black materia? And if so, Why did his sword absorb it?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Grouchio posted:

All I've allowed myself to see is the very last scene with cloud and gang leaving on cid's plane and cloud saying farewell to other-aerith.

Did his clear materia turn black or does he also have the black materia? And if so, Why did his sword absorb it?


He also has the Black Materia. He puts the Clear one away and realizes he has the Black One. He shoves it into his sword and I assume that's just magic because the Black Materia is too big to fit in a standard slot. From what he says as he's doing it, it's implied he was mind-woogied into doing so and may not even realize he did it.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

ImpAtom posted:

He also has the Black Materia. He puts the Clear one away and realizes he has the Black One. He shoves it into his sword and I assume that's just magic because the Black Materia is too big to fit in a standard slot. From what he says as he's doing it, it's implied he was mind-woogied into doing so and may not even realize he did it.
The...black materia that he already gave to sephiroth, or is this a second black materia?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Grouchio posted:

The...black materia that he already gave to sephiroth, or is this a second black materia?

The first. Sephiroth getting the Black Materia from Cloud was presented not as an actual thing but him testing and manipulating Cloud. Like he actually drops the Black Materia and tells Cloud to go fetch it for him. It seems like it's the same deal as in the original game where Sephiroth either needs or wants Cloud to willingly bring it to him.

Basically they shifted it from "Sephiroth got the Materia, and then Jenova just sort of hung out with it for reasons" to "Sephiroth manipulated Cloud into delivering the Materia to him, while the rest of the team is unaware and thinks Sephiroth has it." I think it's mostly to avoid that weird part in the first game where you get the Black Materia back, hand it over to Barret/Red, and then they just kind of bring it along and hand it to Cloud anyway for no clear reason. Framing it as "Cloud had it all along and nobody realized, including himself" kind of makes more sense.

Basically the chain of custody in the original:

Temple of the Ancients -> Given to Sephiroth (copy) -> A Jenova (presumably the same Sephiroth you gave the Materia too) has it in the Northern Crater -> Red/Barret -> Cloud -> Sephiroth.

I assume in part 3 it'll go Temple of the Ancients -> Sephiroth was loving with Cloud to confirm/cement his control over him -> Cloud (unknowingly) has it, which is just a much cleaner chain of events, and there's a horrible moment of drama when the crew finds Sephiroth in the crater expecting to take the Materia back and discovers too late they brought it right to him.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Feb 28, 2024

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oWU3MzSiTs

The entire game is justified by this one scene

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

ImpAtom posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oWU3MzSiTs

The entire game is justified by this one scene
IT'S A PARTY TIME

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

Kalm Chapter question: After Cloud/Tifa's big fight, how long does Tifa stay mad at Cloud? After all, there IS the golden saucer date much later...

VagueRant
May 24, 2012

ImpAtom posted:

In general painting Red as "A complete loving dorky teenager pretending to be older than he is" also makes complete sense and helps give him a defined role and personality in the crew.
Just realised he lets it slip out when Tifa and Aerith show off their beachwear. Gigglesnort.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Pops???

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



Is there like a good bullet point list of spoilers for Rebirth? I don't feel like watching any cutscenes, just want a good, reliable list of notable changes and stuff. (the stuff posted earlier seemed pretty tenuous, and I thought some of it was debunked.) I figure there has to be such a reliable list by now.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

It makes me so happy they put Gilgamesh in this.

NikkolasKing posted:

Is there like a good bullet point list of spoilers for Rebirth? I don't feel like watching any cutscenes, just want a good, reliable list of notable changes and stuff. (the stuff posted earlier seemed pretty tenuous, and I thought some of it was debunked.) I figure there has to be such a reliable list by now.

Pre-release, spoilers were so focused on either shipping wars or the ending that there's not much detail about anything else around.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Gilgamesh owns so hard in this

Gologle
Apr 15, 2013

The Gologle Posting Experience.

<3
It also makes sense why Red XIII is so rude to Barrett specifically, Barrett is his dad

VagueRant
May 24, 2012
The Schrödinger's Aerith ending is the only REAL spoiler that isn't just additions or adaptation changes/cuts from what I've seen.

DalaranJ
Apr 15, 2008

Yosuke will now die for you.
I laughed at the part where Red XIII agrees with Barret's instruction not to go on a date.

DarkLich
Feb 19, 2004
Even if some of the story spoilers are divisive, I'm glad everyone can agree that Gilgamesh is a great addition. The world is a better place with more versions of Battle on the Big Bridge.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

I have only one real complaint about what I know of the final boss/ending sequence: no "Birth of a God" arrangement? Really? For shame. I'll just have to hope they're saving that banger for part 3 for some reason.

VagueRant
May 24, 2012
I also feel like if they were doing Bizarro/Rebirth Sephiroth, you'd just cut the extra jenova fight having done 2 already.

Do we all agree they hosed up Cid? I get cutting the verbally abusive domestic partnership (although the backstory is conspicuously absent altogether) but turning the sweary grumpy mean guy into a cheery positive loyal non smoker who simply has a slightly gruff voice seems like a very strange decision.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

VagueRant posted:

I also feel like if they were doing Bizarro/Rebirth Sephiroth, you'd just cut the extra jenova fight having done 2 already.

Do we all agree they hosed up Cid? I get cutting the verbally abusive domestic partnership (although the backstory is conspicuously absent altogether) but turning the sweary grumpy mean guy into a cheery positive loyal non smoker who simply has a slightly gruff voice seems like a very strange decision.

I don't agree with that actually. Cid as he is portrayed when he is introduced is markedly different from how Cid acts for the entire rest of the game where he's a lovable curmudgeon at worst. He's the kind of dude who shouts that of course he's going to save the planet, he's a MAN and that gets him fired up. It is Cid's introduction that tends to set the tone for how people viewed him but it boiled down to "Cid is lovely to Shera" rather than "Cid is a constantly swearing shitbird."

To be honest I think it makes more sense because Cid's introduction was already kind of ugh in 1997, and in 2024 introducing him as a guy howling and cursing at a cowering woman is, uh, gonna make everyone genuinely hate the dude. By introducing him at his more affable (which, again, is how he acts for the *entire rest of the game*) you make it so that if he is cold or offputting to Shera, it's clear that it is not a common thing for him.

Also Cid's swearing is largely a translation thing anyway.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Mar 1, 2024

Infinity Gaia
Feb 27, 2011

a storm is coming...

However, removing his smoking is unacceptable. How is he going to light his dynamite now?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Infinity Gaia posted:

However, removing his smoking is unacceptable. How is he going to light his dynamite now?

Sadly I'm pretty sure that boils down entirely to "ratings boards freak out about smoking and there is a good chance including that would have bumped the game to M."

Stuffguyman
Jun 3, 2007

ImpAtom posted:

To be honest I think it makes more sense because Cid's introduction was already kind of ugh in 1997, and in 2024 introducing him as a guy howling and cursing at a cowering woman is, uh, gonna make everyone genuinely hate the dude. By introducing him at his more affable (which, again, is how he acts for the *entire rest of the game*) you make it so that if he is cold or offputting to Shera, it's clear that it is not a common thing for him.

I'd argue that's what sucks most about the change. If judgemental players write off Cid immediately based on a first impression then that's on them, and you don't challenge such shallow perceptions by completely catering to them. Hell, I thought Kingdom Hearts was the series where they Disneyify everything. Cid slapping Shera in slow motion HD with all the gravitas and emphasis as Sephiroth burning Nifelhiem is the type of grit I came to see.

Besides, the scene where he discovers Shera saved his life rather than ruined his dream is an important moment for him. Not sure it lands as hard if he never unjustly took it out on her. But I guess we'll see what they do there.

In short what I'm saying is

Infinity Gaia posted:

However, removing his smoking is unacceptable. How is he going to light his dynamite now?
:hmmyes:

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!

ImpAtom posted:

Sadly I'm pretty sure that boils down entirely to "ratings boards freak out about smoking and there is a good chance including that would have bumped the game to M."

It's funny. I was curious and looked at ESRB ratings and descriptions of the RGG games in comparison and they all talk about the violence and sexual content. Never a peep about smoking. (I wasn't trying to disprove you. I just think it's amusing that the series with chainsmokers doesn't get a mention in the ratings)

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Stuffguyman posted:

I'd argue that's what sucks most about the change. If judgemental players write off Cid immediately based on a first impression then that's on them, and you don't challenge such shallow perceptions by completely catering to them. Hell, I thought Kingdom Hearts was the series where they Disneyify everything. Cid slapping Shera in slow motion HD with all the gravitas and emphasis as Sephiroth burning Nifelhiem is the type of grit I came to see.

Besides, the scene where he discovers Shera saved his life rather than ruined his dream is an important moment for him. Not sure it lands as hard if he never unjustly took it out on her. But I guess we'll see what they do there.

In short what I'm saying is

:hmmyes:

There is nothing shallow about writing a dude off for being a violent abusive partner. There's no writing benefit to going "Sure, maybe he beats his wife, but he's pretty fun otherwise right?" (Also, again, the translation plays all of that up way more, which doesn't help.)

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

Yeah I sort of suspect the changes to Cid's character are partially only in English, and we're just getting a more faithful translation this time. We don't see his darker traits yet because we haven't gone to Rocket Town and met Shera. There are changes (the lack of smoking is an aesthetic one, at least) but it's probably more pronounced in English.

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Gologle
Apr 15, 2013

The Gologle Posting Experience.

<3
So the Gi are the plot of Endwalker?

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