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I was only 4 years old when I watched the original Shogun in 1980, it’s great that I don’t remember 99% of it now so that I can watch it unspoiled
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Feb 28, 2024 10:30
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It's a good book, as well.
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Feb 28, 2024 10:31
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Communist Thoughts posted:I read it as a young lad and this and the sex toy fuckin are pretty much all I remember I feel like the prostitution subplot will be one of the big point of divergence. There's the kernel of something interesting to it, but in the book it doesn't really amount to much more than a steady stream of silly sex euphemisms and fetishistic descriptions of pretty petite Japanese ladies. I also wonder if they'll kill Mariko near the end or if that will be changed too.
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Feb 28, 2024 10:38
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High Warlord Zog posted:I feel like the prostitution subplot will be one of the big point of divergence. There's the kernel of something interesting to it, but in the book it doesn't really amount to much more than a steady stream of silly sex euphemisms and fetishistic descriptions of pretty petite Japanese ladies. I also wonder if they'll kill Mariko near the end or if that will be changed too. they have to do the spoiler thing, it's a crucial plot and character point
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Feb 28, 2024 10:42
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Oh poo poo the guy that Blackthorne hangs out with for a bit was Guyliner from Lost
Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 10:58
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Only one episode in so far but I already love the Spaniard. 
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Feb 28, 2024 12:00
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I do really like the forwarding of the Japanese politics aspects of the story and i think it gets to the better side of the book moreso than the miniseries. Clavell did some trashy stuff (Gai-Jin, for example, is a much worse book than Shogun), but he had a knack for action-adventure. Also Yabu owns. The cuts mostly seem to be scenes of Blackthorne being confused about things alone which is also where Clavell tends to be at his worst in the book so i appreciate it. Honestly they might end up bringing back the prostitute scene just as a show of Blackthorne being homophobic but i dunno. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 13:48
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I read the book (and all other Clavell’s except the Whirlwind) last year and I agree with all other posters saying that this was exactly what I saw in my head when reading. King Rat was maybe my favourite, it could be a fun miniseries or a TV movie.
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Feb 28, 2024 14:01
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Megazver posted:It's a good book, as well. I loved the first two episodes so much and I want to read the book but at the same time I don't want to have the story spoiled for myself. drat this show is good.
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Feb 28, 2024 14:41
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I read the book but that was about 25 years ago and it’s like 1200 pages so I have only the vaguest recollection of how the plot goes.
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Feb 28, 2024 14:44
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Only had time for the first ep last night but it was real good. Loving all of the details that came rushing back to me (last read the book in...2018?), I'm normally in favor of weekly release schedules but this is gonna be a toughie. Yabu looks exactly like I envisioned him in my head. Maybe a tiny bit less facial hair but the vibe is spot-on.
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Feb 28, 2024 15:57
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I feel like book yabu played up the aesthete aspect a lot more, this is like glorified bandit yabu. But it really works, he's my fav in this version I think. I look forward to watching him waver between the two sides 100000 times in the 8 episodes to come
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Feb 28, 2024 16:38
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Perestroika posted:Only one episode in so far but I already love the Spaniard. Right? I've always liked Nestor Carbonell but I feel like I haven't seen him in anything in ages. Anyway yeah right from episode one this show is great, I'm hooked.
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Feb 28, 2024 17:07
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Have not read the book, but I've been looking forward to this since the first trailer, and first episode was a triumph. Can't wait to get home and watch the second. Opening the story on the Dutch captain giving a flowery speech on the sweet release of suicide, which Blackthorne tells him to his face is the coward's way out, was a great contrast with our protagonist's reaction to Yabu's willingness to take his own life rather than let the sea take him. He can't reconcile his view on killing yourself with the physical courage Yabu displayed crawling down that cliff to save the Spaniard's life, and when he tries it rings so hollow the Spaniard can't help but mock him. There's a clear ideological clash between the acceptance of destiny and self-determination running as a thematic thread throughout the episode, with Blackthorne representing an extreme embrace of the idea that he makes his own fate through hard work and determination. Each of the Japanese characters navigates the dichotomy in a different way, but they navigate it, and given the Rodriguez's little speech about Shukumei and the centrality of Christianity to the narrative, I have to assume the ebb and flow between the two is going to be a central theme going forward. Speaking of Blackthorne and Yabu, the most striking element of the first episode was the parallelism crafted between the two of them. While Blackthorne comes across as an arrogant wanna-be Conquistador from the jump, the story subtly works to dull it a bit through his more admirable traits: concern for his men, the embrace of his responsibility as the new commander, bravery, guile, etc. By contrast, Yabu's negative traits are emphasized. Before he appears on screen, his nephew's mom notes how he didn't even come for his brother's funeral. He orders that horrific boiling execution, ostensibly because the Portuguese Priest needs to have the blasphemy against his God vindicated, but clearly just because he wants to hear how the man dies for his weird philosophical obsession. Then has a voyeuristic sex romp and chats non-chalantly about the killing over breakfast, even requesting a poem. THEN he outlines his Baby's First Game of Thrones scheme to make himself a warlord once his dumb leader dies. The frame is designed to have us presume Yabu will be a villain for our flawed western antagonist... and then it pulls the rug out from under us a bit and starts to show Yabu's more positive traits. He takes up an oar himself during the storm and follows Blackthorne's orders to help save the ship. He puts himself on the line when he's already on thin ice with his boss to help Blackthorne go after Rodriguez. Then there's everything about the rescue scene, including the fact that he sees through Blackthorne's lame attempts at manipulation but does the right thing anyway. The whole thing crystalizes when Rodriguez reveals that he knows the truth about Blackthorne's mission and Our Hero IMMEDIATELY, and without any hesitation, attempts to murder the guy to protect himself. He and Yabu are cut from the same cloth, warriors in a brutal age who fancy themselves civilized and enlightened, but in reality they are both greedy, self-interested killers. I'll be interesting to see how both evolve over time. Toranaga and Mariko are obviously interesting characters from the jump as well, as is the complex political situation they're in, but I'll wait until I see episode 2 since it seems like they're going to get a more robust spotlight there. Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 17:18
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I remember watching the original series as a kid. So far the costuming, visuals and the production is excellent. As a side, its nice to see what looks like a proper galleon (with "two castles") from the era.
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Feb 28, 2024 17:34
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AcidCat posted:Right? I've always liked Nestor Carbonell but I feel like I haven't seen him in anything in ages. It took me until the sickbed scene on the boat to realize that was Nestor Carbonell. All the way through I was like "wait, this guy seems familiar, who is he?" Then I got a good look at his face finally and I recognized the eyelashes. It was also nice seeing Louis Ferreira show up as the captain of the Black Ship. It's insane that this show was filmed in and around Vancouver too. I recognize a lot of the PNW landscapes especially for the village and forest scenes, but it's still really impressive. I love how every scene with him bit by bit builds up the righteousness of Toranaga's cause either by showing you more of why he's such a good and crafty man or how much all of his enemies are just shitbags. By the time even the first episode is over, let alone the second you just naturally want him to win, and win decisively.
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Feb 28, 2024 18:13
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The comparisons to GoT seem a little premature, but that's my own bias as I attribute GoT's success to how well it juggled the fifty-odd supporting cast. Really takes an exceptional show to not only have a cast that wide but also give them enough life to really feel lived in. The Wire and Deadwood also hit those highs imo, whereas most others don't really try. Only finished the first ep and little of the second, but it doesn't seem like this is as sprawling, but I could be wrong! Production wise I totally see it though and there's enough politics going. Already a little excited to rewatch this after it's done as (I imagine) a lot of the people being name dropped in the first episode will show up later and I'll actually know who they're talking about. Show rules.
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Feb 28, 2024 18:56
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CatstropheWaitress posted:The comparisons to GoT seem a little premature, but that's my own bias as I attribute GoT's success to how well it juggled the fifty-odd supporting cast. Really takes an exceptional show to not only have a cast that wide but also give them enough life to really feel lived in. The Wire and Deadwood also hit those highs imo, whereas most others don't really try. Only finished the first ep and little of the second, but it doesn't seem like this is as sprawling, but I could be wrong! They are switching the comparisons now to Succession, which is way more accurate. But show is loving fantastic so far. I watched the 1st two episodes back to back and was immensely sad to see the next episode isn't until March 5th. I do love when really good shows give you multiple episodes up front and that seems to be the theme these days, but when you really like what you see and can't see more, you get a little sad inside.
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Feb 28, 2024 19:04
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ShowTime posted:They are switching the comparisons now to Succession, which is way more accurate. If a show is being compared to Succession and GoT, something is going absolutely right.
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Feb 28, 2024 19:22
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A Sneaker Broker posted:If a show is being compared to Succession and GoT, something is going absolutely right. Unless it's like late-show Game of Thrones, then something has gone absolutely wrong. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 19:26
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Toranaga kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet.
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Feb 28, 2024 19:30
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nine-gear crow posted:Unless it's like late-show Game of Thrones, then something has gone absolutely wrong.  "Unless, I win."
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Feb 28, 2024 19:43
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I mean it won't be a phenomenon like either of those shows because this will only be one season, while those shows occupied a place in the industry for years. I think this will be received more like Chernobyl, which was lauded / beloved by critics and audiences. It will probably win some awards and generate a lot of buzz and praise for the network, but it won't ever be "water cooler" level, IMO. Also, 100% agree with the poster on how impressive the ship looked. Most media doesn't convey the scale of those ships- this one definitely did. It was an awe inspiring visual. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 20:28
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Google Jeb Bush posted:they have to do the spoiler thing, it's a crucial plot and character point Not to mention The woman Mariko is based on died much the same way securing Ieyasu's victory and became one of the most revered figures in Japanese history. You cant say you going sp far for accuracy that youre using period specific Japanese then change a major part of their hsitory. I enjoyed the Asian Cycle and I hope this is enough of a success for FX to stick to their original plan of this being an anthology series that covers the other books in sequence. I hope they don't cut one of the funnier scenes in the book. Torunaga sends a courtesan to Blackthorne who refuses because he's married, the Japanese don't realize this so they think 'oh he's gay, let's bring him a man.' Blackthorne further flips out . So the exasperated guards think back to something they heard the Portuguese sailors say so they bring a duck to gently caress. Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 20:39
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I have no familiarity with the source material but I watched these first two episodes one after another and the show seems really great so far. It sounds like their intent is to have a clean 10-episode series that tells the complete story? If they can keep up the quality then this will end up being something special, and based on a lot of the preliminary reviews it seems like it does. Maybe there are some unavoidable similarities about telling a story involving western interlopers in feudal japan but you can see a great deal of The Last Samurai that seems like it must have been influenced by the original book. Scoss fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 20:41
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I read Shogun three times and mother gently caress I loved these episodes so much. Richly textured and imminently rewatchable. Also to whoever said they haven't seen Guyliner in years do yourself a favor and watch The Morning Show
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Feb 28, 2024 20:49
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Also I loved Toranaga and his wife teasing each other, and their old general buddy being utterly delighted by the whole thing 
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Feb 28, 2024 20:55
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:
If they're going to do the Asian Saga then I'm already mentally casting Tai-Pan. Who can stroke their long, gross hairs coming out of a mole for luck the best?
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Feb 28, 2024 21:07
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This isn't the new GoT, it's the new Spartacus. A far better show. It's got a fraction of the tits and gore and many times the production values but it has the power struggles, the characters trying to get out of the place society has put them in, the complexity of these characters already established two episodes in, the use of language for worldbuilding, it's everything that made that show so good.
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Feb 28, 2024 21:07
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I would legit love to see an adaptation of Whirlwind, even if it feels so removed from everything else in the books apart from a couple of lines about the power struggle for control of the business empire.
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Feb 28, 2024 21:17
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Scoss posted:Maybe there are some unavoidable similarities about telling a story involving western interlopers in feudal japan but you can see a great deal of The Last Samurai that seems like it must have been influenced by the original book. I know Last Samurai was based on a specific incident in which a pair of French soldiers aligned themselves with the Shogunate forces during the wars leading up to the Meiji Restoration. The project was a brainchild of a New Zealander named Vincent Ward and spent a lot of years being developed and workshopped before it finally got made. Inspiration from Shogun could have easily come into the mix at any time
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Feb 28, 2024 21:22
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I mean any reader of Shogun who watched The Last Samurai immediately began complaining to their friend next to them that it was ripping off Shogun. Well at least people I know
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Feb 28, 2024 21:25
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Man, watching this show makes me want Ghost of Tsushima 2 to be released already..
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Feb 28, 2024 21:29
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Sanguinia posted:I know Last Samurai was based on a specific incident in which a pair of French soldiers aligned themselves with the Shogunate forces during the wars leading up to the Meiji Restoration. The project was a brainchild of a New Zealander named Vincent Ward and spent a lot of years being developed and workshopped before it finally got made. Inspiration from Shogun could have easily come into the mix at any time Last Samurai was, not surprisingly, based on a whole lot of things. I think the villainous American guy was based on an American officer who was invited to teach the Japanese soldiers artillery drills and ended up getting kicked out of the country because it turns out that he was just evangelizing the whole time instead of doing his job.
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Feb 28, 2024 21:47
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A Sneaker Broker posted:Man, watching this show makes me want Ghost of Tsushima 2 to be released already.. Well Rise of the Ronin comes out next month. And you can play Nioh whose main character is the historic inspiration for Blackthorne.
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Feb 28, 2024 22:47
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Can anyone who is old and remembers the 1980 version recount what it was like and how it compares? One thing I’m hearing is that it laid on Japanese stereotypes pretty hard, so much that Japanese audiences groaned over it
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Feb 28, 2024 22:57
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"The Last Samurai" is also in reference to the actual samurai (plural!) that feature in the movie, but it's also very easy to understand why everyone assumes they meant "Tom Cruise is the last samurai" Anyway watched the first two eps of this and it's great. There's some of the historically inaccurate stuff still, of course, but it works for the story/character development so it's a minor quibble for me. Jamwad Hilder fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 23:08
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Just as a comparison, here's the 1980 version of the Zen Garden scene from episode 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWtFfxjLjUU Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 23:09
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I remember loving it but I was younger when I watched it (90s but still) if there was a lot of cultural inappropriateness it went right over my head. The scene with the arrows after sake still sticks with me. That's gonna be a fun scene in this new one.
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Feb 28, 2024 23:27
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Jamwad Hilder posted:"The Last Samurai" is also in reference to the actual samurai (plural!) that feature in the movie, but it's also very easy to understand why everyone assumes they meant "Tom Cruise is the last samurai" Last Samurai did extremely well in the Japanese box office for basically that exact reason. I watched it with my native Japanese language teacher in my freshman year, and she said it was a quantum-leap forward compared to previous American cinema in terms of how it portrayed the language and culture, used top-class Japanese cast to play all the characters, and didn't go nearly as overboard as she expected with the White Savior elements, keeping the bulk of the agency in the political plot squarely in Japanese hands. Her biggest complaint was how romanticized the whole Samurai lifestyle and their motives for fighting the Meiji was compared to actual history. Seems like that won't be a problem with this show!
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Feb 28, 2024 23:28
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