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roomtone posted:The earthquake was a non-event in the end, just something to create a fake climax for the last episode which otherwise wouldn't have had one and it feels like this one didn't either. It was pretty funny they were tallying up the devastation to civilian and military infrastructure at the beginning and then the rest of the episode is going to the completely unscathed tea house and deciding that full frontal assault on Osaka is the way to go.
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Mar 28, 2024 15:45
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Goatse James Bond posted:also iirc the book describes ishido as short and ugly whereas this guy is reasonably attractive and doesn't have obvious establishing shots of him being short, but because the casting in this show is amazing he makes up for it by seething in rage that people above him (except ochiba and the heir) have the temerity to exist and people below him have the temerity to not grovel I was refreshing myself with passages from the book, and at least in one scene in the second half, Ishido is described as "tall, lean and autocratic".
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Mar 28, 2024 15:48
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withak posted:Readers were dumber 50 years ago and had to be spoon-fed this stuff. They didn't have the benefit of 60+ years of Japanese cultural media and the internet. Shogun was wildly popular in its day, because it was the first experience of Japan (outside of the recent war) that most of its readers had access to.
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Mar 28, 2024 16:45
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withak posted:Readers were dumber 50 years ago and had to be spoon-fed this stuff. as though the average tv iv watcher is any more an astute consumer of media than that? lmao
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Mar 28, 2024 17:28
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roomtone posted:I always just assumed it was something elder officials instituted as a style because a lot of them would be naturally bald anyway and wanted to make it a mark of status rather than a sign of decline. Make the cool young samurai do it too. Even if they said otherwise, 'oh you know the helmet just gets too hot so i shave by choice'. This will always be my headcanon. I asked about it last week and it's called chonmage and it was apparently the style at the time, but there is no evidence you can confront me with that can make me believe it didn't originate with some grouchy, balding old daimyo who was getting jealous of seeing the hot young samurai dudes with their thick black hair getting all the pillow time.
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Mar 28, 2024 18:09
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The style was around at the time Shogun takes place, but became more fashionable (or forced) in the decades following, according to Wikipedia-sama. Take it with a pinch of "citation needed."Wikipedia posted:The origins of the chonmage can be traced back to the Heian period. During this period, aristocrats wore special cap-like crowns as part of their official clothing. To secure the crown in place, the hair would be tied near the back of the head.[citation needed]
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Mar 28, 2024 18:25
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It’s a martial style haircut so in the show you see two type of people wearing them: the hardcore warriors like Buntaro, or the try-hard wannabes like Omi. Note that Yabu and Toranaga don’t wear their hair in that style, because they see themselves as Lords and Governors rather than simple soldiers.
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Mar 28, 2024 19:25
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So, basically ball cap, oakleys and beard for 1600s Japan
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Mar 28, 2024 19:36
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Yeah it does make a lot of sense in the show context if you take it as the haircut signaling that person is going to be wearing a helmet all the time anyway, or wants you to think they're totally ready to
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Mar 28, 2024 19:39
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Collateral posted:They didn't have the benefit of 60+ years of Japanese cultural media and the internet. Shogun was wildly popular in its day, because it was the first experience of Japan (outside of the recent war) that most of its readers had access to. They also had The Chrysanthemum and the Sword. So yeah just things pieced together from WWII and Shogun.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:06
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When drawing the map in episode 2, Blackthorne says the earth is "round, like a fruit" to no reaction from Toranaga or anyone else. The Greeks knew the earth was round since forever, and the Indians too, but did Chinese and Japanese astronomers and mathematicians have comparable knowledge? I'm curious if that particular claim might have gotten a "yeah no poo poo, where have you been?" or "well that's obvious nonsense, he's lying about the route he took" if that had been the big takeaway (under other circumstances, I mean - "your enemies are conspiring against you" was the more immediate concern) Shishkahuben fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 20:12
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China and Japan had found out around that time. The shape of the Earth was a curious blind spot in Chinese science, despite their astronomical work. It wasn't until Jesuits turned up in the decades immediately before the story that they'd gained that knowledge.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:20
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I feel pretty confident speculating that what the japanese would think about cosmology at that point is probably pretty much whatever the chinese classics say about it, insofar as they do. Very cursory searching suggests they probably thought the earth was flat but some people argue it. I think in the book and the show they are getting hit with way too much more immediately practical information to focus on that claim much anyway
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Mar 28, 2024 20:21
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I wonder how much trust Toranaga is supposed to have in Blackthorne's words. Here's a foreigner with an obvious agenda who claims his enemies are invaders conspiring against you, and who repeatedly insists on attacking them to serve you. His claims have serious implications but he's hardly in any position to prove anything, right?
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Mar 28, 2024 20:46
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Phenotype posted:This will always be my headcanon. I asked about it last week and it's called chonmage and it was apparently the style at the time, but there is no evidence you can confront me with that can make me believe it didn't originate with some grouchy, balding old daimyo who was getting jealous of seeing the hot young samurai dudes with their thick black hair getting all the pillow time.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:49
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I think toranaga builds up trust in what blackthorne is saying pretty quickly for various reasons, but a lot of it is just not particularly relevant or realistically actionable in his situation. He has to survive the immediate ishido issue first and has no reason to antagonize the portuguese who he would like on his side in that if anything, even if they are an enemy for later
No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 20:55
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Right Toranaga views Blackthorn as a chess piece then a weapon then time permitting a friend and he probably finds it hilarious how obvious Anjin's motivations are there is like zero subtlety. But also, he can't leave. So sorry.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:59
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if blackthorne's men are still alive, i wonder if they're back down another hellhole while he runs around getting bestowed gifts and wrapped up in the sex lives of the elite
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Mar 28, 2024 21:04
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YaketySass posted:I wonder how much trust Toranaga is supposed to have in Blackthorne's words. Here's a foreigner with an obvious agenda who claims his enemies are invaders conspiring against you, and who repeatedly insists on attacking them to serve you. His claims have serious implications but he's hardly in any position to prove anything, right? He wasn't sure, that's why he confronted the Jesuits with what Blackthorne told him. SO when they tried to assassinate Anjin, they pretty much gave the game away.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:32
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Shishkahuben posted:I'm curious if that particular claim might have gotten a "yeah no poo poo, where have you been?" or "well that's obvious nonsense, he's lying about the route he took" if that had been the big takeaway (under other circumstances, I mean - "your enemies are conspiring against you" was the more immediate concern) This reminds me of an anecdote I heard like 23 years ago from Afghanistan. After the US went in, this journalist was talking to some of the anti-Taliban fighters the US was working alongside. This younger soldier wanted to know what had changed that brought the Americans to fight. The journalist explained how bin Laden had attacked and all that, but he used the phrase "other side of the world." The Afghan guy was like "what do you mean, other side?" That led into a description of the size and shape of the world, which stunned the journalist that someone wouldn't know those things. The soldier took it in with a general Holmesian "I never needed to know and it doesn't really change my immediate task." I could see Toranaga thinking like that. Does it really matter how far Anjin came from or what shape the world is? It doesn't matter if he's right or wrong. What does matter is whether or not the military intelligence part about where the guns came from is correct.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:35
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:I was refreshing myself with passages from the book, and at least in one scene in the second half, Ishido is described as "tall, lean and autocratic". Really? Huh. Egg on my face then, swear to God my memory thought it was very clear on this
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Mar 28, 2024 23:19
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Goatse James Bond posted:Really? Huh. Egg on my face then, swear to God my memory thought it was very clear on this Maybe you're thinking of the 1980 miniseries? I remember that Ishido being rather round-faced.
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Mar 28, 2024 23:28
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I've said it before but I love the actor playing Ishido and he elevates the character for me. He has a strange charisma
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Mar 28, 2024 23:29
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kiimo posted:I've said it before but I love the actor playing Ishido and he elevates the character for me. He has a strange charisma agreed - he's got a pretty thankless role in this story, but the actor is selling it in such a way that i'm never disappointed when he appears on screen, so that deserves some recognition. and it is the acting, in this case.
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Mar 28, 2024 23:39
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It's always a good sign when you're pleased to see most, or all, of the characters turn up. Yabu owns, Toranaga owns, Ishida is really cool, Mariko is doing great work, Fuji possibly even better, and even though I was baffled by his acting choices to start with, I now super enjoy Temu Hardy as well
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Mar 28, 2024 23:54
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:My quick look at the Shogun subreddit has some folks itching for more action, but man, I gotta say, the cut to all of Sugiyama's entourage slaughtered hit hard and I can't think of any spinning and kicking and clanging of swords that I would like to see in its place. This is a hallmark of great modern tv imo. Action movies and shows will always have a place in my heart, but shows that treat violence in a more true-to-life way where it's fast, inglorious, and horrific - and know when to deploy it (the cannonball scene, the casual executions that have largely occurred as backdrop) and when it's unnecessary to see the action (this event) is what separates the brilliant from the entertaining. Ranted about this a lot in the Fargo threads, as I think that show generally does a good job about it too.
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Mar 29, 2024 00:04
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fuji's actress is taking a supporting role into a star turn honestly everywhere i look, it's just people praising her and noticing fuji in scenes where she isn't even the focus
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Mar 29, 2024 00:08
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also blackthorne is loving hilarious and great and the way he's been folded into this dynastic power struggle is both funny and emotional and that's some good stuff i dunno if they'll top him ranting about the sanctity of women for funniness, but i sure hope he has one more big dumb speech in him cos i love to listen to this guy
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Mar 29, 2024 00:10
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Barry Foster posted:I now super enjoy Temu Hardy new thread title roomtone posted:fuji's actress is taking a supporting role into a star turn honestly where are you looking, I want to look too
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Mar 29, 2024 00:26
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roomtone posted:also blackthorne is loving hilarious and great and the way he's been folded into this dynastic power struggle is both funny and emotional and that's some good stuff "You are.... A SILLY LITTLE MAN!"  I love that it still wasn't going to work but it ended up distracting long enough for Jozen to show up and go,"What the gently caress? Ishido said they could go, stop wasting everybody's time!" to the guard.
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Mar 29, 2024 01:21
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eERRO_IyNsg
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Mar 29, 2024 01:26
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fuji just pulled a gun..... that was very good. very good. there's nothing that can be said to that.
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Mar 29, 2024 01:27
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Omi and the samurai all immediately flinching back when Fuji pulls the gun is the loving best.
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Mar 29, 2024 01:32
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Sash! posted:China and Japan had found out around that time. The shape of the Earth was a curious blind spot in Chinese science, despite their astronomical work. From googling around it looks like at least one Chinese astronomer proposed a spherical earth but the idea never caught on.
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Mar 29, 2024 01:45
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I can't be the only one who thinks Toranaga's failson isn't long for this world, right?
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Mar 29, 2024 01:49
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Jerusalem posted:Omi and the samurai all immediately flinching back when Fuji pulls the gun is the loving best. it was funny man but i want it to mean something .....these bitches are stupid. and, if you'll excuse me doing some beavis, 'gay as hell', and i say THIS
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Mar 29, 2024 01:50
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SUBMIT TO MARIKO OR DIE OR FUJI
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Mar 29, 2024 01:51
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SHOGUN -- Fuji's Got a Gun
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Mar 29, 2024 02:07
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Shogun - Fuji's pointing at you.
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Mar 29, 2024 02:09
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I'm down for Shogun: I Now Super Enjoy Temu Hardy as a new thread title if the mods will it
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Mar 29, 2024 02:26
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