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Jerusalem posted:Just as a comparison, here's the 1980 version of the Zen Garden scene from episode 2: Wow Pretty dry The blocking in the new one is great, placing Toranaga higher up not only as a sign of his power but also so he can see the map from above The gravity of finding out about Portugal’s bases in Macau putting everyone on alert Mariko’s inner conflict about hearing about the Portuguese That’s juicy stuff
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Feb 28, 2024 23:32
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Steve Yun posted:Can anyone who is old and remembers the 1980 version recount what it was like and how it compares? One thing I’m hearing is that it laid on Japanese stereotypes pretty hard, so much that Japanese audiences groaned over it The Japanese reception was also to some degree due to the way Japanese audiences had soured on Samurai media. Kurosawa was also unfashionable at the time.
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Feb 28, 2024 23:40
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I've soured on American movies glorifying the military so that resonates with me.
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Feb 28, 2024 23:51
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This show is incredible.
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Feb 29, 2024 00:23
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Can’t wait to see what they do with the ninja attack. When Clavell wrote the book, and when the tv series aired, we were in the “ninja wore black bodysuits and masks and threw metal stars at people” era. I wonder if they’ll change some of that.
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Feb 29, 2024 00:26
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MrMojok posted:Can’t wait to see what they do with the ninja attack. Probably the attack at the end of the second episode is a good indication, and it was executed pretty well. I've never seen the 80s version but I read a review that said the equivalent scene in that had a stereotypical ninja, and honestly from the book I remember most such attacks basically involving stereotypical ninjas
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Feb 29, 2024 00:30
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big-arse mary when
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Feb 29, 2024 00:34
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Real life William Adams worked for a predecessor to the Dutch East India Company so in the big picture his employers were a bigger threat to the world than the Portuguese Edit: Also he’s English so his people would also later come up with the British East India Company, the second most evil corporation of all time Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 00:38
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Fortunately ninja attacks in dramas about japan have been relegated to the dustbin of history. Now to take a big sip of coffee and start watching tokyo vice (2022)
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Feb 29, 2024 00:48
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Can't wait to check this out. I read the book for school like, over twenty years ago. I remember a lot, but the thing I keep thinking about it How people would pee together to make a deal? Was that a thing?
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Feb 29, 2024 01:12
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Steve Yun posted:Can anyone who is old and remembers the 1980 version recount what it was like and how it compares? One thing I’m hearing is that it laid on Japanese stereotypes pretty hard, so much that Japanese audiences groaned over it The mini series ripped out a lot of the politics to focus on a story that'll be coming up in a few episodes. Very little use of subtitles to play up the alieness of Japan and played up the white savior bit that the book did a lot of work to undermine.
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Feb 29, 2024 01:16
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Kingtheninja posted:Can't wait to check this out. I read the book for school like, over twenty years ago. I remember a lot, but the thing I keep thinking about it How people would pee together to make a deal? Was that a thing? It's taken directly from a pretty well known folk story about the real people the taiko and toranaga are based on. It even inspired a weird japanese saying that's kind of like "birds of a feather flock together" but for piss https://kotobank.jp/word/%E9%96%A2%E6%9D%B1%E3%81%AE%E9%80%A3%E5%B0%8F%E4%BE%BF-2026289
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Feb 29, 2024 01:21
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No Mods No Masters posted:Probably the attack at the end of the second episode is a good indication, and it was executed pretty well. I've never seen the 80s version but I read a review that said the equivalent scene in that had a stereotypical ninja, and honestly from the book I remember most such attacks basically involving stereotypical ninjas Yeah but in 1980 ninjas weren't stereotypical. Like, ninja lore exploded later. I remember watching Pray for Death and being floored
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Feb 29, 2024 01:21
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Jerusalem posted:Just as a comparison, here's the 1980 version of the Zen Garden scene from episode 2: I forgot they got Toshiro Mifune as Toranaga in that one!
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Feb 29, 2024 01:43
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Steve Yun posted:Can anyone who is old and remembers the 1980 version recount what it was like and how it compares? One thing I’m hearing is that it laid on Japanese stereotypes pretty hard, so much that Japanese audiences groaned over it Clavell did a lot of work on the script and as others have said, a lot of the Japanese politics elements have been truncated to focus mostly on Blackthorn's story. The book does this a little bit too in that it takes longer to get into Japanese politics, whereas the new show puts it front and center with Blackthorne being sort of a piece added into it, and i think it's vastly improved for it. Though, for the length the 1980 series had, the Story of John Blackthorn is probably all the time they had. Clevell has some trashy quality to his work but he does have a knack for drama and action-adventure. In the book, "Unless we win" is used in reference to Toranaga suggesting that the Dutch should be executed for rebelling against their Hapsburg liege lords, to kinda show that all those rules everyone talks about really doesn't apply compared to power. I'm not really sure the line was appropriate for the conversation this adaptation had, and it just felt like a nod to the scene that was cut for this one. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 01:46
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Entropic posted:I forgot they got Toshiro Mifune as Toranaga in that one! yeah and he acted circles around everyone edit: I didn't mine the reworking of "not if I win" because the acting was great and in the end delivering the line about obeying your lord would probably take time to fully explain. It works here I think. But yeah the moment is pivotal as it is the moment that Anjin isn't just a chess piece he has the kind of mind where Toranaga realizes he can be an ally kiimo fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 01:57
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kiimo posted:Yeah but in 1980 ninjas weren't stereotypical. Like, ninja lore exploded later. I remember watching Pray for Death and being floored The 80s USA ninja craze started later in the decade, but ninja were already stereotypical in Japan at the time, due to all those great 60s Japanese ninja films none of us could see back then. I’m sure this is where Clavell got his inspiration for that part of the book.
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Feb 29, 2024 02:10
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Interesting but let's be honest it's kind of funny seeing James Clavell type out NNNNNNIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNJJJJJJJAAAAAAA! lol I love it
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Feb 29, 2024 02:11
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Ninjas dressed in black are totally ahistorical so even though they were staple for a long time it's good if they change that for this show
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Feb 29, 2024 02:11
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 this is my historical ninja
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Feb 29, 2024 02:16
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The ending credits have a ridiculous about of Japanese culture accuracy consultants A friend of a friend was trained in Japanese theater and commented about how authentic the movements were. Something that stuck out to me was the very regimented way how Toranaga moved his robe slack out of the way when he sat down to talk to the dying taiko
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Feb 29, 2024 02:19
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Steve Yun posted:The ending credits have a ridiculous about of Japanese culture accuracy consultants Usually a show produced outside of Japan wouldn't feel like a Japanese period drama even if they put effort into accuracy and there weren't any specific language issues or anything like that.
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Feb 29, 2024 02:23
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mystes posted:It's actually quite remarkable how it looks and sounds almost exactly like a period drama produced in Japan would (but higher budget than it would be if it was a Japanese tv show). I have a sneaking suspicion that an actual Japanese production would cast an actress that looks different as Mariko. The Japanese nerds complained about Rinko Kikuchi in Pacific Rim (!?, lol), for example, as an example of perfidious Westerners casting someone who doesn't fit their beauty standards.
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Feb 29, 2024 02:27
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Yeah! There’s a huge amount of love and care that went into getting things period-accurate here. I do not pretend to be an expert in pre-Edo and early Edo period history. I am though on a discord that’s chock full of people who teach Japanese history and language. The people there tend to really rip a lot of modern shows set during the period. They despise the samurai documentary that’s on Netflix, for example. But so far, they’ve been blown away by the first two episodes. Which is awesome.
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Feb 29, 2024 02:27
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ShowTime posted:They are switching the comparisons now to Succession, which is way more accurate. lol people need to find better words to say a show is good. This is nothing like Succession except that it is also very very very good. Kudos to the poster who brought up Chernobyl. That feels like an apt comparison - historical-inspired mini series. Regardless, whatever gets people watching this is a net good. Could use more shows this confident in the world. You're fully immersed in a world that's foreign to today and it's effortless to believe these characters were people. And the stuff they're doing is loving rad, like roping down a wet cliff just to prove to a prisoner that you're manly. And then pay for it. And then try to kill yourself. But then it's ok and you did earn their respect. Cool poo poo. Whoever is programming at FX is making a good name for themselves between this, Fargo, and Reservation Dogs. Each gives HBO a run for their money. CatstropheWaitress fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 03:06
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People have forgotten that film is not the only medium SHOGUN has been adapted into. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ_GcrzB_Pg
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Feb 29, 2024 03:19
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Entropic posted:People have forgotten that film is not the only medium SHOGUN has been adapted into. I hate every Portuguean I see From Portugays To Portugueze
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Feb 29, 2024 03:25
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This seems like a good show! My cousin had the book, so I might end up reading this between episodes, cause I can't wait for more. Why did doofus samurai ever offer to end his whole line? I woulda thought plain ol seppuku would be enough repentance for speaking out of turn, without offering to kill his own baby too. (Although I suppose it's in character, the main data point we have about that guy is that he can't keep his mouth shut) mystes posted:Ninjas dressed in black are totally ahistorical so even though they were staple for a long time it's good if they change that for this show It's a really good archetype, though, you can't get rid of it entirely. Stealthy figure all in black silently making his way through the palace, throws little metal stars with lethal edges, master of martial arts. It's a classic for a reason.
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Feb 29, 2024 04:13
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mystes posted:It's actually quite remarkable how it looks and sounds almost exactly like a period drama produced in Japan would (but higher budget than it would be if it was a Japanese tv show). Agreed. FX/Hulu deserve huge props for adapting it.
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Feb 29, 2024 04:15
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CatstropheWaitress posted:lol people need to find better words to say a show is good. People really lack the vocabulary and, probably, critical skills to describe what they like and dislike (and what is objectively and subjectively 'good') about media in general. For instance, True Detective's latest season is divisive and most people can't seem to articulate why their opinions differ from others and default to making ad hominem attacks against those they disagree with.
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Feb 29, 2024 04:41
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This show is awesome as gently caress, and is making me want to play Ghost of Tsushima for a second time, granted that takes place in a different time period of Japan. And then there is Rise of the Ronin on March 22nd.
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Feb 29, 2024 04:50
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Phenotype posted:Why did doofus samurai ever offer to end his whole line? Probably to keep Toranaga sympathetic to the audience. In the book he's the one who orders it, and also denies doofus samurai the right to take his own life and has him executed as a common criminal instead. Some line about how "you were born samurai by mistake and therefore so was your son."
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Feb 29, 2024 04:57
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Just finished the second episode. This show wields it's bilingual presentation awe-inspiringly well. The translator scenes are enthralling, partly because it doesn't cut away from them straight up, but the gradual fade of everyone but John and Toranaga was perfect. also holy gently caress I thought John's voice was cool so I looked up the actor - he did a cheesy folky song I had in regular rotation -- twelve years ago called Gay Pirates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAV3AbaTRYs. God drat, good for him. In hindsight, shame Our Flag Means Death didn't use it. CatstropheWaitress fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 05:08
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This show slaps
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Feb 29, 2024 05:14
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CatstropheWaitress posted:Just finished the second episode. This show wields it's bilingual presentation awe-inspiringly well. The translator scenes are enthralling, partly because it doesn't cut away from them straight up, but the gradual fade of everyone but John and Toranaga was perfect. I’m so sad our flag means death isnt getting a 3rd season.
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Feb 29, 2024 05:24
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CatstropheWaitress posted:Just finished the second episode. This show wields it's bilingual presentation awe-inspiringly well. Although I have to say I didn't realize until the second episode that the "English" they were speaking is actually Portuguese, I thought the Portuguese priests were just talking to the Englishman in English. I finally got it when the priest is talking to Mariko and asking her if she gets more use out of her Latin or her Portuguese and I was like "'or her English,' right? You're talking in English... oh..." Which then made the scene with the map in the sand better, because yeah, Japan is completely isolated from the rest of Europe. It's not like Portuguese merchants are going to tell them that there's even a place called England.
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Feb 29, 2024 06:26
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How does being a missionary to a place like that work, anyway? You show up on a boat, and you just start randomly talking to people like "hey, there's this dude called jesus and he loves you very much"? How does Christianity get a foothold there?
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Feb 29, 2024 06:29
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Phenotype posted:How does being a missionary to a place like that work, anyway? You show up on a boat, and you just start randomly talking to people like "hey, there's this dude called jesus and he loves you very much"? How does Christianity get a foothold there? "Convert to Jesus, daimyo-sama, and we can trade with you as fellow Christians. And we just happen to have a boat filled with guns and gunpowder out in the bay. You know, the kind of technology your local rivals don't have."
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Feb 29, 2024 06:34
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Phenotype posted:How does being a missionary to a place like that work, anyway? You show up on a boat, and you just start randomly talking to people like "hey, there's this dude called jesus and he loves you very much"? How does Christianity get a foothold there? Jesuits were like special forces versions of diplomats: they took the smartest students from the elites of the Catholic world, taught them scientific, engineering, military and mathematical principles, screened out anyone who wasn’t going to hack it being dumped in a totally alien culture and then sent them all over the world to spread influence by tagging along with national diplomatic missions and sharing useful, practical knowledge as advisors. Also by using flashy memory tricks like the ‘palace of the mind’. People like Francis Xavier were very very capable.
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Feb 29, 2024 06:47
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the leper lord for example also has another sort of thing going on Japanese culture says you're unclean and it's probably a spiritual problem, some sufficiently motivated Catholic priest says no actually you can repent and it'll all be cool when you die
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Feb 29, 2024 06:49
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