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Yabushige with the cross-legged casual seppuku, smirking as Toranaga sent his owns words back at him, what a loving animal to the end. RIP king It also dawned on me during the credits that he tossed the necklace into the sea. he was only dreaming of growing old in england, my man's never leaving that island
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Apr 23, 2024 08:41
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Babe Magnet posted:
I was wondering about that. gently caress.
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Apr 23, 2024 08:45
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A dream of a dream 
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Apr 23, 2024 08:51
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lol I was thinking about how the best character in the show was Yabu's Grunt, so I checked on YouTube for a comp and sure enough I wasn't let down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeBwYBR4Y0I
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Apr 23, 2024 09:08
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Yabushige immediately Lady Macbething was funny/sad.
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Apr 23, 2024 09:10
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Things wrapped up nicely but people are definitely going to think there's a second season based on that ending.
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Apr 23, 2024 09:11
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It would absolutely be possible to make a second season based on the actual William Adams story but i don't think it would really have anything like the book's momentum and i don't think the monologue works well in that context. I'm not sure I really care for the reworking of the Anjin suicide attempt, I think it's really stuff he needed in ep 6-7 when things were stalling out- in the book, that's where he really does a lot of development. I do like the placement of Toranaga's monologue about the future with Yabushige's death. Probably the most sensible way for him to get his plans out there.
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Apr 23, 2024 10:03
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Good ending for the Yabster. Also big LOL at his death poem
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Apr 23, 2024 11:07
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a good show. I don't think it ever surpassed that map scene in episode 2 though.
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Apr 23, 2024 11:24
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Very good show, but I'd prefer to watch the 1980 version over the new one. Maybe I'm just  I miss John Rhys-Davies telling Ingles "see I tried to tell you, they're all butchers"
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Apr 23, 2024 13:26
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I wouldn't mind an effortpost on how exactly Mariko swung Ochiba to Toranaga's side and how Yabu's betrayal plays into this.
snoremac fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Apr 23, 2024 |
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Apr 23, 2024 13:44
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Qmass posted:a good show. I don't think it ever surpassed that map scene in episode 2 though. I think you're right on the money here. The show was consistently good throughout, but that map scene was maybe the best setup scene I've ever come across.
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Apr 23, 2024 13:58
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The map scene was great
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Apr 23, 2024 14:08
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drat, yabu had his brains rattled.
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Apr 23, 2024 14:09
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snoremac posted:I wouldn't mind an effortpost on how exactly Mariko swung Ochiba to Toranaga's side and how Yabu's betrayal plays into this. My best guess is that Ochiba and Mariko go back as childhood best friends. Although Mariko's father hosed poo poo up, I don't think Ochiba harbored any true resentment to her. Ochiba knows she needs to wheel and deal if she wants to keep herself and heir alive, so she sided with Ishido. With Mariko's death, everyone knows Ishido orchestrated it, so it sowed division among the regents, especially the christian ones. Toranaga knew Yabu plays both sides and figured Ishido would try to cut him a deal in handling Mariko's protest of being held captive. At that point, Ochiba knew that Ishido had no power over the remaining regents, so it was easier to cut him out and the bring the rest in line.
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Apr 23, 2024 14:12
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There's a nice little moment where Omi orders Blackthorne to surrender his sword and gun and he does it immediately, and the look of surprise on Omi's face is great. You can tell he was expecting another standoff to ensue over it, and maybe Fuji pointing a gun at him again.
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Apr 23, 2024 14:32
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glassyalabolas posted:My best guess is that Ochiba and Mariko go back as childhood best friends. Although Mariko's father hosed poo poo up, I don't think Ochiba harbored any true resentment to her. Ochiba knows she needs to wheel and deal if she wants to keep herself and heir alive, so she sided with Ishido. On rethinking, I think Toranaga couldn't have predicted the exact outcome of events in Osaka, but it was important he weaken Ishido's hold on the powerful families kept hostage there, causing Ochiba to reconsider her allegiance. Mariko essentially achieved this with her performance, but in a strictly political sense Ishido's ninja response and her death just sealed the deal. And it's funny, because I don't think Toranaga knowingly 100% sent her to death and is sad it turned out that way, but we learn he's got no compunction murdering innocents for his own ambition anyway. The man thinks little of peasants. snoremac fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Apr 23, 2024 |
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Apr 23, 2024 14:39
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loving excellent show and excellent last episode. Yabushige, what a goddamn legend.
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Apr 23, 2024 14:40
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The last few scenes with Blackthorne and Fuji were such a joy to watch. The friendship they made was so earned and genuine and him helping her let go of her husband and son was a fantastic way to show the culmination of their relationship. Blackthorne has, by the end, fully assimilated into Japanese society but his deep connection to the sea (and it's very English roots) is still there.
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Apr 23, 2024 14:43
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:The last few scenes with Blackthorne and Fuji were such a joy to watch. The friendship they made was so earned and genuine and him helping her let go of her husband and son was a fantastic way to show the culmination of their relationship.
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Apr 23, 2024 14:48
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snoremac posted:I really liked their bonding too. And I loved the rope pulling scene at the end. This could have so easily felt sentimental but they pull it off. I don't love this show but this was a fine ending, and it's great that it pulls it off with an unfulfilled 'promise' of a big showdown. I thought the scene of everyone pulling together was about as subtle as a brick, but i'm not sure what I would've wanted differently after Toranaga's monologue and the boat scene.
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Apr 23, 2024 14:50
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Sometimes, you just pull a big boat out of the water with your boys
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Apr 23, 2024 14:53
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Apart from a couple of sketchy greenscreen shots and aggressive vignetting, pretty drat solid. What a good show!
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Apr 23, 2024 15:27
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Absolute banger of an episode, although it felt like more of an epilogue than a finale. I'm not ready to do it yet, but I'll have to binge the whole show to see if Toranaga's political scheming is genuinely present from the start also Yabu turning that fierce smile back at Toranaga as a final gently caress-you was 
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Apr 23, 2024 15:41
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So are we ever clear on why it's implied that Ochiba hates Toranaga so much?
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Apr 23, 2024 15:48
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mcmagic posted:So are we ever clear on why it's implied that Ochiba hates Toranaga so much? This is a faint memory so maybe I'm overstating it but I feel like the book emphasizes a little bit more a spurned romantic angle between them. Anyway she doesn't exactly need more reasons than that perhaps she sees him for what he is a lot more plainly than most of the other characters
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Apr 23, 2024 15:52
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No, and one of my few complaints about the show is that it builds up that dislike to be very intense / personal and then she just sort of lets it go after Mariko dies. As another poster pointed out, it felt a bit unearned especially since they hinge toronaga's entire fortunes on that one decision, rather than talking about how multiple lords switched sides over to him at the end.
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Apr 23, 2024 15:54
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I don't think her decision is unearned. She was deeply moved (or if you'd prefer loving terrified) by what mariko did and how toranaga played them all and moderately hedged her bet on ishido in response
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Apr 23, 2024 15:56
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IRL did this work out for the heir or did he "accidentally slip on some rocks while hiking" or something along those lines? Or is this so fictionalized that you can't really connect the real people to it down the road?
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Apr 23, 2024 16:00
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Think Ochiba is doing this out of concern for saving her child's place at the top of the pecking order. Toranaga in the show is a master schemer who manages to turn his son's death into a huge PR win for himself. Ochiba incites the second phase of the prosecution against toranaga once he manages to escape osaka but once Ishido gets outplayed she switches sides and lets ishido to hang in the wind.
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Apr 23, 2024 16:00
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PostNouveau posted:IRL did this work out for the heir or did he "accidentally slip on some rocks while hiking" or something along those lines? Or is this so fictionalized that you can't really connect the real people to it down the road? It did end badly and very publicly for him, with another military showdown at the Siege of Osaka 15 years later. There was some attempt to marry into Tokugawa's clan and keep his head down, but ultimately he was too much of a liability to keep around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyotomi_Hideyori
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Apr 23, 2024 16:07
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PostNouveau posted:IRL did this work out for the heir or did he "accidentally slip on some rocks while hiking" or something along those lines? Or is this so fictionalized that you can't really connect the real people to it down the road? (Transposing the actual history onto shogun here a bit but) The decision to not get the heir involved at sekigahara contributed to them living for about 15 more years. At that point toranaga had officially become shogun and consolidated enough power that he could finally brutally obliterate them. That story is also very deeply interesting and I hope someday it gets its own great telling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Osaka
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Apr 23, 2024 16:07
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No Mods No Masters posted:(Transposing the actual history onto shogun here a bit but) The decision to not get the heir involved at sekigahara contributed to them living for about 15 more years. At that point toranaga had officially become shogun and consolidated enough power that he could finally brutally obliterate them. That story is also very deeply interesting and I hope someday it gets its own great telling If they wanted to make a season 2 based on William Adams-Tokugawa stories that would probably end up being an interesting throughline but it'd be over years instead of the temporally quite tight story of Shogun.
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Apr 23, 2024 16:12
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You know what, screw it, I am drat glad it ended very similarly to the book. Action addicts gonna hate it. But it's a good corrective to the more common trend of characters serving plot rather than plot serving characters. We got some great moments with Blackthorne and Fuji, Alvito and Blackthorne, Yabu and Yabu. I wish there was one last encounter with Rodrigues. Not sure how they could have fit it in though.
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Apr 23, 2024 16:13
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Panzeh posted:If they wanted to make a season 2 based on William Adams-Tokugawa stories that would probably end up being an interesting throughline but it'd be over years instead of the temporally quite tight story of Shogun. If they took it seriously, I could see a season 2 being pulled off. But it's not necessary. What I would love to see is Tai-Pan done with a similar effort, and then we could get Gai-Jin, except it's good. Clavell was dying of cancer and the book feels like it could have used one more story pass. Now we have an excuse to do so.
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Apr 23, 2024 16:15
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:You know what, screw it, I am drat glad it ended very similarly to the book. Action addicts gonna hate it. But it's a good corrective to the more common trend of characters serving plot rather than plot serving characters. We got some great moments with Blackthorne and Fuji, Alvito and Blackthorne, Yabu and Yabu. I wish there was one last encounter with Rodrigues. Not sure how they could have fit it in though. Unfortunately, Rodrigues showing back up is one of those things that'd only really make sense in a more Blackthorne-centric adaptation, he largely served his purposes in the first couple episodes. The 1980 miniseries is basically that adaptation though it's worse in a lot of ways.
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Apr 23, 2024 16:19
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I would be willing to entertain season 2 for sure, but on the other hand I can't say the show-original material in this was consistently of a high enough caliber that I would enter it with full trust either
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Apr 23, 2024 16:20
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Can't wait for Shogun 2: Shogun Harder. Enjoyed the show over all, but in hindsight, it did seem to be more plotted like there was a season 2. Side events and characters that somewhat tied in to the show's themes, but also felt a bit perfunctory in the totality.
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Apr 23, 2024 16:30
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:You know what, screw it, I am drat glad it ended very similarly to the book. Action addicts gonna hate it. But it's a good corrective to the more common trend of characters serving plot rather than plot serving characters. We got some great moments with Blackthorne and Fuji, Alvito and Blackthorne, Yabu and Yabu. I wish there was one last encounter with Rodrigues. Not sure how they could have fit it in though. I expected him to crop up at the harbour, just briefly. but yeah, brilliant ending, brilliant show.
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Apr 23, 2024 16:36
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Dr.Radical posted:Good ending for the Yabster. Also big LOL at his death poem lol Yabu's death poem was basically "gently caress my life. God drat it. poo poo." I really appreciate that the capstone of the episode and the season was Toranaga just dropping his guard completely to Yabushige and letting him know that even though he's got good intentions, he is in fact just as big of a bastard as everyone else and Yabu just being quietly impressed with what a motherfucker he is. They were great foils to eachother, both being scheming douchebags but one lived loud and was playing it by ear, and the other kept his mouth shut and had decades-long plans, so each gets the end they strove for.
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Apr 23, 2024 16:42
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