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Puzzled that people are complaining there wasn't a battle, but chuckling that the exact same thing happened in this year's season of Fargo: lot's of build up to a battle, but instead of spending almost any time on it, they do a couple of very quick cuts and then spend all that time following protagonist's who aren't in the direct line of fire instead. Both shows didn't need it, and it's nice to see show runner's spend their time and budgets elsewhere.
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Apr 24, 2024 14:56
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Great final ep, I love the decision to turn Toranaga's ending monologue from the book into a conversation with Yabu.X-O posted:I was actually happy we didn't get a battle. I'm not a book reader so I don't know how it's done in the book but I was In fact kind of dreading most of this episode would be a battle and would short shrift the characters in the process. I was pleasantly surprised. It's honestly just two or three sentences at the end of the book giving a brief summary of the battle happened on this date, in this spot, in this weather, and Toranaga won and claimed 40,000 heads in the process. They also omitted the very last paragraph of the book, in which Ishido is captured alive, taken back to Osaka, and very publicly buried alive from the neck down under Toranaga's orders. A bamboo saw is left next to him and passerby are free to saw at his neck for fun. He dies three days later  Miss Mowcher posted:A question that maybe book readers would know more, but why would Toronaga keep burning Anjin ship to prevent him from leaving? I know he was using him to confuse his enemies, but why not let the man leave or whatever after achieving his victory? As others have said, Blackthorne is more useful to Toranaga in Japan than outside of Japan. Most importantly, Toranaga says (quoting the book) "I need one friend" and he doesn't want to make friends with the other Japanese or the Portuguese.
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Apr 24, 2024 15:15
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Something I didn't actively notice at first but now I do: whenever Mariko and Blackthorne are walking side by side, she's doing the little shuffle walk that keeps her head completely level while he's ranging about all over the place like he's got reverse sea legs. super fun detail
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Apr 24, 2024 15:26
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glassyalabolas posted:They could just weaved in gameplay from this classic. On that note I would love a Fall of the Samurai sequel series.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:08
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C-Euro posted:As others have said, Blackthorne is more useful to Toranaga in Japan than outside of Japan. Most importantly, Toranaga says (quoting the book) "I need one friend" and he doesn't want to make friends with the other Japanese or the Portuguese. Yeah, eventually, Tokugawa actually did give the real William Adams permission to leave Japan once the first English captain to come to Japan on purpose showed up, but Adams declined (It may be because said captain was kind of an rear end in a top hat to him). This was around 1612, though, a long time after Sekigahara. There was actually a lot going on between Sekigahara and the closing of the country, and Adams had a pretty real impact on how that went down.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:31
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Miss Mowcher posted:A question that maybe book readers would know more, but why would Toronaga keep burning Anjin ship to prevent him from leaving? I know he was using him to confuse his enemies, but why not let the man leave or whatever after achieving his victory? In the book, it was part of the agreement with the Portugese. If he never leaves the island, they don't have to kill him. Blackthorne knew enough to put the black ship at risk if he ever made it back to England.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:53
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, eventually, Tokugawa actually did give the real William Adams permission to leave Japan once the first English captain to come to Japan on purpose showed up, but Adams declined (It may be because said captain was kind of an rear end in a top hat to him). This was around 1612, though, a long time after Sekigahara. There was actually a lot going on between Sekigahara and the closing of the country, and Adams had a pretty real impact on how that went down. you gotta imagine at that point too like ... what's left for him in England? An uncertain journey and, at the end of it, a land as alien to him now as he would be to it
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Apr 24, 2024 16:56
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Pattonesque posted:you gotta imagine at that point too like ... what's left for him in England? An uncertain journey and, at the end of it, a land as alien to him now as he would be to it 
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Apr 24, 2024 17:00
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Chadzok posted:I wanted a montage of what happened to everyone's real-life equivalents and a "Christianity was banned within X years" or whatever Toranaga's real world counterpart Tokugawa went on to found the Tokugawa Shogunate, who would rule Japan for two hundred years. His family is still around and probably the reason all the names got changed since they're super wealthy. Blackthorne's equivalent settled down as a member of the Japanese gentry and has a district in Tokyo named after him. His family disappeared sometime during Japan's seclusion. Yabushige's equivalent survived, but got lost on the way to the battle of Sekigahara and showed up late. He continued to be a senior official of the shogunate and died shortly after Tokugawa. Ishida's equivalent, as mentioned, was buried in the ground and died of probably dehydration. Father Alvito's equivalent was eventually forced to leave Japan, replaced in his duties as official translator. The Portuguese were gradually pushed about but he continued to bum around Ming China as it collapsed and was replaced by the Qing, eventually dying in Macao. Ochiba's equivalent will eventually come into conflict with the new Shogun, and after a few fights she'll commit suicide in a burning castle with her son. Omi will fall out of disfavor at some point and be exiled from court. Most of the other regents will die in the battle of Sekigahara. Buntaro goes on to keep serving for like another 45 years, fights at Sekigahara, and dies at the age of 82.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:30
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lol speaking of that, this is Yabushige's death poem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do0rpBd7cXo
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Apr 24, 2024 17:30
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Pattonesque posted:you gotta imagine at that point too like ... what's left for him in England? An uncertain journey and, at the end of it, a land as alien to him now as he would be to it well... he had two kids there
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Apr 24, 2024 17:31
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Morrow posted:Buntaro goes on to keep serving for like another 45 years, fights at Sekigahara, and dies at the age of 82. The real winner of Shogun right here, ladies and gentlemen 
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Apr 24, 2024 17:36
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Morrow posted:Buntaro goes on to keep serving for like another 45 years, fights at Sekigahara, and dies at the age of 82. Goddamn. Nothing can keep this man down.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:43
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nine-gear crow posted:The real winner of Shogun right here, ladies and gentlemen The real Buntaro was best buddies with this guy when he was older, they would hang out and spar and write poetry together. The show did portray his love of tea ceremony, he was apparently friends with the guy who invented it. He sounds like a supremely cool dude that hung out with all the GOATs of his era. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7bSLlN_C1A
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Apr 24, 2024 17:50
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Morrow posted:Yabushige's equivalent survived, but got lost on the way to the battle of Sekigahara and showed up late. He continued to be a senior official of the shogunate and died shortly after Tokugawa. I love how even the real Yabushige found a way to gently caress up in the most Yabushige way possible and still kept both his head, guts and position at Tokugawa's side, and even outlived the fucker. Show Yabu was robbed! 
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Apr 24, 2024 18:02
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Show yabu was the best yabu. Also I guess the title of the book/series is a pretty big spoiler
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Apr 24, 2024 18:08
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Chadzok posted:I wanted a montage of what happened to everyone's real-life equivalents and a "Christianity was banned within X years" or whatever After his victory at the Battle of Sekigahara, Ieyasu Tokugawa's (ie the real Toranaga) power over Japan is essentially unchallenged. None of the remaining daimyo have the strength or will to oppose him. Three years later, 1603, the Emperor formally anoints him with the title of Shogun. Two years after that, 1605, he officially retires, naming his son Hidetada to the office in his place. While Ieyasu retains true political power, this move cements his family's herditary hold on the position of Shogun and confirms that the position itself will remain the permanent head of government. This begins an unbroken 250 year Tokugawa dynasty, an era we know today as the Edo Period. Over the next ten years, Ieyasu consolidated power by addressing the only two effective threats to his continued rule: the wealth brought to Christian daimyos by favoritism in foreign trade, and Hideyori Toyotomi, the son of his long-dead friend the Taiko. Within 10 years, the Christian religion had been forbidden and all Tokugawa retainers and vassal required to forswear their adherence to the faith. The construction of ocean-going ships was forbidden. Trade with Europe was banned outside a single port in Nara, controlled by a Tokugawa loyalist and far from the power centers of the once-Christian lords. Hideyori, the young boy whose power Ieyasu had once held in trust as part of the council, spent most of his remaining years in Osaka Castle. He was married to Ieyasu's grandaughter and assumed to be a useless fool who had no care that his father's wishes for him had been usurped. Around 1614, this illusion was shattered when he imprinted a subversive message onto a bronze bell as part of a rennovation of a major temple within his fief which appeared to call for the end Tokugawa rule and the return of his family to power. He began to gather a small army of ronin and forge alliances with anti-Shogunate lords. Ieyasu's response to this challenge was decisive. One year later, Osaka castle was burning, Hideyori was dead, and the Toyotomi line extinguished. Ieyasu died in 1616 with all his enemies vanquished. His heirs carried on his legacy by solidifying an inflexible caste system that shattered social mobility into the Samurai class, ensuring another Toyotomi Clan would never rise, and sealing Japan's borders entirely to foreigners on pain of death. There would be peace and corruption in equal measure for generations as Japan prospered and stagnated in isolation, waiting for the day the Black Ships would force them back into the modern world and begin the fall of the Shogunate.
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Apr 24, 2024 18:10
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this is a great summary, thank you
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Apr 24, 2024 18:53
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Sanguinia posted:After his victory at the Battle of Sekigahara, Ieyasu Tokugawa's (ie the real Toranaga) power over Japan is essentially unchallenged. None of the remaining daimyo have the strength or will to oppose him. Three years later, 1603, the Emperor formally anoints him with the title of Shogun. Two years after that, 1605, he officially retires, naming his son Hidetada to the office in his place. While Ieyasu retains true political power, this move cements his family's herditary hold on the position of Shogun and confirms that the position itself will remain the permanent head of government. This begins an unbroken 250 year Tokugawa dynasty, an era we know today as the Edo Period. Not quite. You see when Ieyasu had conquered half the country this triggered the Realm Divide mechanic forcing him to break all his treaties and conquer Japan before the turn limit ran out.
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Apr 24, 2024 19:18
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Aurubin posted:Not quite. You see when Ieyasu had conquered half the country this triggered the Realm Divide mechanic forcing him to break all his treaties and conquer Japan before the turn limit ran out. that’s what happened in the show he used a few exploits to force vassalise everyone after killing a few daimyo in a field battle
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Apr 24, 2024 19:26
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And while Christianity was nominally forbidden among the samurai, each lord was allowed to determine how strict it was in their fiefdoms. Jesuits were allowed to remain in Japan for a while, but we're constantly testing their leash, and anytime they pulled too hard were subject to mass crucifixions. At the same time Tokugawa and his successors were working to smooth relations with China to make Jesuits unneeded. Even this ended 30 years later with the Shimabara Rebellion, a peasant revolt due to the needless cruelty of the lord of the fief. The rebellion was infiltrated and coopted by Christians, and as a result, the Jesuits were finally completed expulsed, Christianity forbidden for all castes and the borders closed. Except for the Dutch East India Trading Company, who maintained a monopoly on trade with Japan for over 200 years. Then the lord that caused the rebellion in the first place was executed for being a useless piece of poo poo. HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:that’s what happened in the show he used a few exploits to force vassalise everyone after killing a few daimyo in a field battle Yeah, that why the characters are always moving and sitting in that stilted way. Trying to force a sequence break through geometry. Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 19:32
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There is a recentish (2017) Japanese movie about the battle of Sekigahara called Sekigahara, which I will watch now that this series has given me that itch. It presented a more positive view of the Ishido -character IIRC, that he was honestly trying to ensure the heir's ascension. As to the issue of banning Christianity, I recall watching one of the videos (Edit: a channel called "Voices of the Past") about a Japanese embassy to Europe in the early 17th century and IIRC there was speculation (I don't remember if it was by someone opposed to Spain or Catholicism at the time or modern speculation) that the embassy tried to clandestinely secure sanction from the Pope and military support from Spain to make Date Masamune a Christian king of Japan. It just seemed interesting that in Scorcese's Silence the Japanese repression of Christianity is justified by it's destabilising effect and the possibility of a new era of warfare.
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Apr 24, 2024 20:25
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Pattonesque posted:you gotta imagine at that point too like ... what's left for him in England? An uncertain journey and, at the end of it, a land as alien to him now as he would be to it Didn’t stop him sending in 1600s terms a poo poo ton of money back to his English wife, never knowing if she would ever receive it or was even still alive
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Apr 24, 2024 21:41
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I remember in one location, the Christians that refused to renounce all got tossed in a thermal vent or some other natural source of hot water.
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Apr 24, 2024 22:00
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twistedmentat posted:I remember in one location, the Christians that refused to renounce all got tossed in a thermal vent or some other natural source of hot water. *Yabu liked this*
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Apr 24, 2024 22:02
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Chadzok posted:I wanted a montage of what happened to everyone's real-life equivalents and a "Christianity was banned within X years" or whatever Lol. *Ochiba and the heir were murdered after 15 years of their clan and allies being exterminated*
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Apr 24, 2024 23:15
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thanks for all the summaries, very informative, but I guess what I really wanted was gifs of the characters smiling at the camera and doing something so classically them while the text played
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Apr 24, 2024 23:19
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Chadzok posted:thanks for all the summaries, very informative, but I guess what I really wanted was gifs of the characters smiling at the camera and doing something so classically them while the text played Yabushige's body, at the bottom of a ravine, being savaged by dogs
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Apr 24, 2024 23:58
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Kaedric posted:Yabushige's body, at the bottom of a ravine, being savaged by dogs Knowing that the real Yabushige basically outlived almost everyone but Buntaro makes this image even funnier.
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Apr 25, 2024 00:04
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Jerusalem posted:I love a big ol' battle scene as much as the next guy, but if you told me I could have a Lord of the Rings level battle but that it would come at the cost of the scene of Toranaga reading Ochiba's letter and seeing the wave of relief wash over him and all the weight of years of planning and hoping and plotting and striving just falling off of him... then I'd save the VFX department a shitload of overworked and under( or just un)paid hours of labor. I really though he was about to do some Les Grossman poo poo
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Apr 25, 2024 00:08
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Dante posted:Well I mean, her tiny child is the rightful heir and the other dude wants to be shogun. Historically it played out pretty much as you'd expect. One thing other posters in the thread brought to my attention is that this kid is the son of a peasant who everyone agreed was a great right-hand-man to his noble leader. A leader who couldn't be shogun because he was a peasant. So they invented a new title for him and now the kid is... what exactly? There's no precedent for this title being passed down.
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Apr 25, 2024 00:52
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Morrow posted:Yabushige's equivalent survived, but got lost on the way to the battle of Sekigahara and showed up late. He continued to be a senior official of the shogunate and died shortly after Tokugawa. Oh my God, that is loving perfection  I can see show Yabu arriving with the battle over and doing his little cocking-head,"OH!?!" exclamation 
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Apr 25, 2024 00:55
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Yabu, Buntaro, Blackthorne living to old age is good.
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Apr 25, 2024 01:04
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cannot believe i watched that whole drat thing for that many hours and the goddamn aliens were just her father
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Apr 25, 2024 01:20
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Grimnarsson posted:Yabu, Buntaro, Blackthorne living to old age is good. Give me a Final Fantasy X-2 style show of those three morons just travelling newly minted Shogunate Japan getting in trouble and doing goofy poo poo.
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Apr 25, 2024 01:26
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Buntaro and Blackthorne's quiet acknowledgement of each other's grief and right to exist was really nice too 
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Apr 25, 2024 01:29
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re: Toranaga burning the boat: (I haven't read the book) It was a deal that Mariko/Toranaga made to placate the Portuguese. Mariko didn't want them killing Blackthorne, and Toranaga wanted the Portuguese and their Manila ronin army to stay the gently caress out of Japan. So a deal was made - Anjin can live if his boat is destroyed, because then he can't go back to Protestant England and tell them about the Japan-ees. The Portuguese Catholics thought they would come out ahead with Toranaga because of the deeded church in Edo, but Toranaga knew that Anjin would rebuild the boat and then he'd have a pocket foreign emissary in case the Portuguese decided to make a play. of course in real life, Toranaga/Tokugawa just said gently caress it and shuttered the country and then outlawed christianity nine-gear crow posted:Give me a Final Fantasy X-2 style show of those three morons just travelling newly minted Shogunate Japan getting in trouble and doing goofy poo poo. Yabu's ending was perfect. Bring in Radriguez the guyliner pilot instead. The show can have a sideplot of them teaching Buntaro portuguese swear words
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Apr 25, 2024 02:06
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Any recommendations on good documentaries/dramas about Tokugawa?* His life sounds fascinating. * other than Shogun, natch.
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Apr 25, 2024 02:11
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Seluin posted:Any recommendations on good documentaries/dramas about Tokugawa?* His life sounds fascinating. He's arguably the most famous guy in Japanese history, so yeah they're out there. This one is pretty good: https://www.amazon.com/Shogun-Tokugawa-Ieyasu-Tuttle-Classics/dp/4805310421 Vampire Panties posted:in real life, Toranaga/Tokugawa just said gently caress it and shuttered the country and then outlawed christianity Well, his son did - years after his dad had died.
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Apr 25, 2024 02:15
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Morrow posted:Toranaga's real world counterpart Tokugawa went on to found the Tokugawa Shogunate, who would rule Japan for two hundred years. His family is still around and probably the reason all the names got changed since they're super wealthy. Slight correction: Ishida Mitsunari, the basis for Ishido, was given a pretty simple execution via beheading at the Rokujogahara execution grounds in Kyoto (after refusing a final meal of persimmons because they disagreed with his stomach, apparently). He was executed alongside Konishi Yukinaga, a Christian daimyo who was one of the inspirations for Kiyama, and Ekei Ankokuji, a Buddhist monk with close ties to the nominal leader of the Western army, Mori Terumoto, who opted to stay in Osaka rather than taking to the field himself; this effectively handed the victory to Ieyasu, since Mitsunari was an extremely polarizing figure, and as long as he was in a position of leadership, Ieyasu was able to capitalize on dissension. The execution method in the book is actually lifted from the execution of someone who attempted to assassinate Oda Nobunaga many years prior, a guy named Sugitani Zenjubo. Also, to be fair to Honda Masanobu, the guy Yabushige is loosely based on, the delay he had getting to Sekigahara was because he was with Tokugawa Hidetada, Ieyasu's heir, who decided to try to besiege a castle his dad had failed to capture fifteen years earlier, so it's more one of Ieyasu's failsons (who still got to be Shogun, and a pretty effective one at that) than any fault of his own, outside of being unable to convince Hidetada to go with the original plan of leaving behind a screening force while they hurried along to Sekigahara.
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Apr 25, 2024 02:30
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