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kiimo posted:Interesting I don’t mean to continue the  derail here, but I’ve seen you post in a lot of cineD threads, because I’m all over them too. And I know you’re somewhat of a cinephile, like me.If you (or anyone else) is interested, I’d say essential Japanese ‘60s ninja movies are: 1) Castle of Owls (1963) There is also a 1999 color remake of this one 2) Seventeen Ninja (1963) 3) The Third Ninja (1964) There are others, including the Shinobi no Mono series, but I love the three I listed. They are all black and white, and there are a lot of cinematography choices in these films that are very striking. The themes always include how much being a ninja really sucks. You’re born into a clan and you’re an agent for that clan, and eventually you’re probably going to get killed. The second film on the list is about a guy in charge of the Iga ninja clan who’s down to seventeen operatives, and they’ve just gotten a mission to steal a signed pact from a well-guarded castle. Twist is, a former Koga ninja is now on the payroll of the dude who owns the castle, and he’s made it ninja-proof. The old dude (who is indeed too old for this poo poo) has to figure out how to use his remaining 17 operatives to get in there, and he’s got to straight-up sacrifice several of them. These kinds of themes are common in these films. Lots of grey characters, and cinematography that are very much influenced by film noir. In these particular films, the ninja don’t have Kuju-Kiri magic, or superpowers. There are occasional moments I recall where they do some pretty high tumbling leaps, but there’s no magic. They flip out and kill people, and throw metal stars at people. They also use a lot of the classic ninja gear, like ropes and claw-gloves to scale castle walls, all kinds of poo poo. These three films are very cool watches, if you can find any of them. tl:dr— early 60s Japanese ninja films rock! e: I also meant to say that when the ninja craze in the USA really kicked off, a lot of it was due to the scene in the book and 1980 miniseries and also the Eric Van Lustbader novel. Then, Cannon films started making the movies kiimo mentioned above, which were kind of corny and over the top. None of us 80s kids had access at the time to these early 60s Japanese films, you simply couldn’t find copies of it on VHS. Back then, you could perhaps find Seven Samurai on VHS at some video stores, but there were zero copies in the west of things like Ran and Throne of Blood. Or the series my avatar is from. That all started to change in the 90s. MrMojok fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 06:57
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Phenotype posted:How does being a missionary to a place like that work, anyway? You show up on a boat, and you just start randomly talking to people like "hey, there's this dude called jesus and he loves you very much"? How does Christianity get a foothold there? It seems like it was pretty clearly spelled out in the show. The christian regents get a bunch of money from the priests and they might not cling to their faith as much if that weren't the case. You show up some place, give someone something they need or want, and then say "Jesus did this"
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Feb 29, 2024 07:27
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I wonder if Shogun also kicked off the ninja trend in kungfu movies in the 80’s They’re always the bad guys (China vs Japan) and the trend ran from 1982-the mid 90’s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zSMOP0W6MEA&pp=ygUWNSBlbGVtZW50IG5pbmphcyB0cmVlcw%3D%3D
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Feb 29, 2024 07:33
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Phenotype posted:Although I have to say I didn't realize until the second episode that the "English" they were speaking is actually Portuguese, I thought the Portuguese priests were just talking to the Englishman in English. I finally got it when the priest is talking to Mariko and asking her if she gets more use out of her Latin or her Portuguese and I was like "'or her English,' right? You're talking in English... oh..." The way the book shows people speaking portugese is the most normal English with a few Portugese-ish words (because Blackthorne almost never speaks English in the book), but in the book he uses Latin when he just wants to talk to Mariko and not be understood and the book indicates the use of Latin with Biblical English.
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Feb 29, 2024 10:57
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Remember watching the TV show as a kid and found it a bit too edgy - there's a person cutting themselves open for honour and people treated as objects every episode. Looking forward to checking this out, still.
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Feb 29, 2024 13:19
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MrMojok posted:NINJAS dude thank you for this post *throws smoke bomb and disappears from thread*
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Feb 29, 2024 14:10
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Panzeh posted:but in the book he uses Latin when he just wants to talk to Mariko and not be understood and the book indicates the use of Latin with Biblical English. Them using latin thou as a breathy lovers greeting (tū i believe?) would have been incredibly obvious, even to the lowliest no-armour bondsman with no latin at all. But, it kind of works as stage voice. No idea what "you" + winkwink is in Japanese.
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Feb 29, 2024 14:18
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Tū means the same thing in Portuguese, so I feel Clavell was having a wheeze here.
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Feb 29, 2024 14:26
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I thought the actress who plays Mariko did a good job. Which is cool since the only other thing I've seen her in was Legacy of Monsters and she was terrible. But then again everyone was terrible in that
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Feb 29, 2024 14:26
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Holy poo poo, I didn't recognize her at all from Monarch, but then I gave up on that show when it just got too frustrating to watch and the writing was starting to piss me off. So glad she's in something this good instead.
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Feb 29, 2024 14:45
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Second episode also very good and I finally remembered who "Guyliner from LOST" was referring to lol. The zen garden scene was a standout as others have said. Wife wasn't fully on board with the first episode but I think the second one also cleared up some of her confusion as well, she's not an early modern period history dork like me.
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Feb 29, 2024 15:46
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Phenotype posted:How does being a missionary to a place like that work, anyway? You show up on a boat, and you just start randomly talking to people like "hey, there's this dude called jesus and he loves you very much"? How does Christianity get a foothold there? This show I believe is set mid 1550s which would be right around the time of the first Jesuits getting to Japan like Francis Xavier. Japan was an isolationist nation but they still traveled abroad a ton and just thought he was someone pushing a new Hindu religion. Familiarity leads to acceptance, especially backed by trade which the Portuguese dominated in Asia between them landing in the Mughal Empire and Japan. This led to priests slowly converting local leaders who then converted their subjects and the rest is history. It was basically just like you said, Hey there's a greater power that loves you and accepts you and wants you in the kingdom of Heaven. Pretty easy message to believe in and embrace. It's what comes after that's the problem. I think in the scope of history people underestimate how much time people had and the span in which they accomplished it. For instance the Conquista of South America's Jesuits went from 1500ish until 1767 with the Bourbon Reforms. That's 275~ years of probably the most learned priests in any Catholic sect working every day to bring Christianity to the indigenous people. Japan is still in conflict between the landing in 1550 and now when it comes to Christianity vs Shinto/Buddhism. Catholics love to destroy things that aren't Catholic and Japan still has reaction and counter reaction to warlords burning down all the temples when they were converting.
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Feb 29, 2024 17:57
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The show is set in 1600, it says so at the very beginning of the first episode. I think the book takes place over a few years leading up to sekigahara to make things a little more plausible
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Feb 29, 2024 18:06
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Doltos posted:This show I believe is set mid 1550s which would be right around the time of the first Jesuits getting to Japan like Francis Xavier. Japan was an isolationist nation but they still traveled abroad a ton and just thought he was someone pushing a new Hindu religion. Familiarity leads to acceptance, especially backed by trade which the Portuguese dominated in Asia between them landing in the Mughal Empire and Japan. This led to priests slowly converting local leaders who then converted their subjects and the rest is history. It was basically just like you said, Hey there's a greater power that loves you and accepts you and wants you in the kingdom of Heaven. Pretty easy message to believe in and embrace. Also, as other people said the jesuits used trade, technology, scientific knowledge, etc. to convert people, and at the beginning they would extensively lie about actual christian beliefs to try to make them seem more palatable to local culture/beliefs in Japan and other countries and start to convert people, so it was absolutely not just a matter of saying "Hey there's a greater power that loves you and accepts you and wants you in the kingdom of Heaven" mystes fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 18:21
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No Mods No Masters posted:The show is set in 1600, it says so at the very beginning of the first episode. I think the book takes place over a few years leading up to sekigahara to make things a little more plausible The book also takes place in 1600. Blackthorne shows up in late April, according to a log entry he makes at the very beginning of the book and he tells Father Domingo that it's May 1600 while imprisoned in Osaka.
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Feb 29, 2024 18:28
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It's a really interesting time for the Jesuits, gonna spoil this since it might make it into the show as an exposition dump, but leading up to 1600 The Jesuits overplayed their hand trying to convert the Taiko and ended up getting 26 priests crucified in Nagasaki so the order is walking on the thinnest of egg shells
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Feb 29, 2024 18:28
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Yeah, it’s a good ~200 years of near-total isolationism, after the events of this show. Japan still traded with the Chinese and Dutch, but it was very strictly controlled, and foreigners were basically completely banned from setting foot on Japanese soil (except for a couple of places meant for Dutch sailors to stay while their cargo is being unloaded or loaded, and they weren’t allowed to leave these compounds.) So in part because of some of the events dramatized during this story, for about 200 years afterwards, if you were a regular Japanese citizen, you had almost zero chance of ever seeing a foreigner.
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Feb 29, 2024 18:33
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If people want to see how Christianity fared during the early Edo period a little later than the show, the Scorsese movie Silence is a great watch. If you really like Shogun, then you'll probably like Silence.
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Feb 29, 2024 22:36
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Another time marker is that the Taiko says he wished he could’ve taken Korea together. The war where Korea repelled several invasion attempts by Japan happened 1592-1598
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Feb 29, 2024 22:54
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Steve Yun posted:Another time marker is that the Taiko says he wished he could’ve taken Korea together. The war where Korea repelled several invasion attempts by Japan happened 1592-1598 Does Shogun take place before or after the Mongolian invasions?
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Feb 29, 2024 23:04
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Those were several centuries earlier, I believe?
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Feb 29, 2024 23:12
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Yeah that’s the late 1200’s
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Feb 29, 2024 23:14
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:It's a really interesting time for the Jesuits, gonna spoil this since it might make it into the show as an exposition dump, but leading up to 1600 The Jesuits overplayed their hand trying to convert the Taiko and ended up getting 26 priests crucified in Nagasaki so the order is walking on the thinnest of egg shells I think they mention this in the 1st episode? show is extremely good
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Feb 29, 2024 23:18
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I don't think it's a spoiler since the scene where it's discussed, the discussion with the Jesuit in jail already happened, and it was briefly touched on then. The war with Korea is also why the Jesuits are still around despite Japanese Christians being heavily persecuted. Japan invaded Korea because Korea wouldn't allow them free passage across their borders to invade China. In retaliation for this and a few other skirmishes earlier in the 16th century, China ceased all direct trade with Japan. The Jesuits started working as a go between allowing the sale of Chinese goods in Japan. Catholic colonialism during this time was basically split between the Portugese Jesuits conquering nations economically or Spanish Franciscans conquering militarily.
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Feb 29, 2024 23:31
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mystes posted:Also, as other people said the jesuits used trade, technology, scientific knowledge, etc. to convert people, and at the beginning they would extensively lie about actual christian beliefs to try to make them seem more palatable to local culture/beliefs in Japan and other countries and start to convert people, so it was absolutely not just a matter of saying "Hey there's a greater power that loves you and accepts you and wants you in the kingdom of Heaven" In my comment I said trade and learned experience I'm not sure if that was clear before you posted
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Feb 29, 2024 23:32
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I’m thankful for all the history buffs in this thread, I knew bits and pieces of Japanese history but this is the first time I got to connect dots Like the Christianity being banned was info I just had out of context before and I had no idea what set it off
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Feb 29, 2024 23:34
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Steve Yun posted:I’m thankful for all the history buffs in this thread, I knew bits and pieces of Japanese history but this is the first time I got to connect dots I wish I knew more about feudal Japanese history. My forte is Roman or Greek. With that said, history portrayed correctly will always attract any nerd.
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Feb 29, 2024 23:43
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lol all this time all I ever heard about Portugal in Japan was “that’s where the Japanese learned to fry chicken”
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Mar 1, 2024 00:00
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Steve Yun posted:lol all this time all I ever heard about Portugal in Japan was “that’s where the Japanese learned to fry chicken”
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Mar 1, 2024 00:19
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Steve Yun posted:Another time marker is that the Taiko says he wished he could’ve taken Korea together. The war where Korea repelled several invasion attempts by Japan happened 1592-1598 I'm glad you mentioned that because I had a question about why he would have taken Korea and given Japan to Toranaga? Wouldn't he just rule them both? Or maybe Taiko would have made Toranaga the warden of Japan instead while still controlling both.
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Mar 1, 2024 00:31
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From my recollection of the novel, and based on what little I know of Oda nobunaga, I think it's implied that the Taiko just really enjoyed war and was particularly good at it. Conquering and subduing Korea would have been a dream job for him, and likely would have required his full attention and a new court to be established there. I think he would have wanted to leave toranaga behind to safeguard the homeland and run it efficiently.
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Mar 1, 2024 00:35
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Yeah, I believe by the 1640s all the laws the Tokugawas wanted were in place. The anti-foreigner stuff. The ban on training serf armies (which everyone had used for a few? hundred years). Confiscation of (many) swords. Requiring that all the daimyo in outlying areas made a pilgrimage to Edo annually or so, where they had to spend several months, at great expense. Keep your possible enemies close, and financially strained! Often requiring that daimyo have an immediate family member live all the time in Edo, like Theon Greyjoy. So there ends up being ~250 years of no wars. But there’s former samurai who have no job anymore because the Tokugawas only allowed each daimyo to have ~50-man personal guard/army or whatever, so most lose their jobs. Some become bandits. Some wander around doing odd jobs. Some are ronin, and it’s during this long period that most of the films many people will think of when they hear “Samurai.” The Kurosawa Man With No Name movies, my avatar, Zatoichi, etc. Anyway if anyone who really knows Japanese history sees me passing bad info here, please correct me. I love the Period of Warring States, through the Edo period era stuff, but I’m no historian. Just a buff.
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Mar 1, 2024 00:38
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From what I understand it sounds like Japan was only good at land war and was a clown show with naval combat. Yi Sun-Sin may have been a genius strategist but the Japanese boats had smaller cannons and their usual strategy was “board the enemy boats so that we can have a land war on our boats.” Korean boats would always blow them up before they could get close enough, so the Japanese strategy was to Zerg rush them, which worked until Yi Sun-Sin got out of jail and back in charge of the Korean navy. Halfway through the war Korea brought out turtle boats with metal roofs and spikes so that they couldn’t be boarded. Japan was having all sorts of victories on land against Korea but without being able to control the seas they ended up throwing in the towel
Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 00:44
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A Sneaker Broker posted:I wish I knew more about feudal Japanese history. My forte is Roman or Greek. With that said, history portrayed correctly will always attract any nerd. I wish I knew more about feudal japanese history. My forte is shitposting and video games. I was reading around on Wikipedia today and I realized that one of my favorite video games of all time, Nobunaga's Ambition, is almost a prequel of this show. EDIT also I've seen MrMojok's avatar movie when I was a teenager and 
Vampire Panties fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 01:47
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:From my recollection of the novel, and based on what little I know of Oda nobunaga, I think it's implied that the Taiko just really enjoyed war and was particularly good at it. Conquering and subduing Korea would have been a dream job for him, and likely would have required his full attention and a new court to be established there. I think he would have wanted to leave toranaga behind to safeguard the homeland and run it efficiently. Just a little clarification here: the Taiko Nakamura in this is based off of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, not Oda Nobunaga. In history, Hideyoshi invaded Korea with the intent to try to conquer China for likely a number of reasons: he was an extremely ambitious man who'd risen from being a poor peasant to the effective ruler of the country, and if he could do that, why not aim higher still? He wouldn't be the first commoner to claim the throne in China, or the first foreigner. He also had a large number of vassals who were still heavily armed and on a war footing, many of whom had serious enmity with one another, so he may have intended the invasions as something of a combination bonding exercise and culling, to turn their aggression outward rather than risking the country from falling right back into civil war and to thin the number of samurai in general. It didn't end up working out the way he'd hoped, though; the rivalries between many of his vassals worsened in many ways with them now competing against one another for his favor, he relied almost exclusively on his most trusted commanders and their armies to do the fighting and take losses while leaving less trustworthy forces (like the Tokugawa, who were the single strongest faction outside of his own personal forces) safely back in Japan, and his developing paranoia as the end of his life approached appears to have motivated a number of decisions that had destabilizing effects (for instance, he had already designated his adult nephew Hidetsugu as his heir, but within a couple of years of his son Hideyori being born, Hideyoshi had him stripped of his rank, disowned him, and ordered him to commit suicide, due to some rather spurious rumors that Hidetsugu was planning a coup. He also ordered the execution of Hidetsugu's entire family, including 39 women and children, one of whom was the 15 year old daughter of daimyo Mogami Yoshiaki, who had just arrived in Kyoto to be one of Hidetsugu's concubines, and who had not even met him yet; Yoshiaki unsurprisingly became a zealous supporter of the Tokugawa in the conflict following Hideyoshi's death).
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Mar 1, 2024 03:37
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Thank you for the clarification. You are 100% correct.
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Mar 1, 2024 04:36
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A Sneaker Broker posted:Does Shogun take place before or after the Mongolian invasions? Is this before or after the US defeats Japan?
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Mar 1, 2024 05:33
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My forte is making jokes about things I have tertiary understanding about at best which is why I love SA. Thank you, history goons for tolerating me. Japanese history has always and will always rule. Sake over cha tonight
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Mar 1, 2024 05:55
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That scene in ep2 in the garden may be one of the most riveting scenes I've ever watched on television. Absolutely gripping. I don't know the actor for Blackthorne but he's really nailing it, as is pretty much everyone.
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Mar 1, 2024 06:38
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Nm
Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 07:54
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