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Jerusalem posted:Toranaga constantly has to adapt and change to circumstances or the actions of others he wasn't expecting and he understood that death and failure was absolutely a possibility... but you adapt and you most of all keep your head. That's why the scene of him receiving Ochiba's letter is so important, you can see the weight he's been under just lift off of him in that moment, and it's a beautiful, beautiful piece of acting. Yes, while he was always managing to start a step ahead he still had to adapt to all the curveballs coming at him. He and Yushiba were basically polar opposites the entire time, which is why I loved the final conversation being between those two. Also it's interesting going back and seeing when Toranaga launched his different falcons, in E6 he plays on Mariko's guilt to get her prepared to launch the one woman Crimson Sky. Cold and calculated, but he wasn't playing a game of friends and enemies.
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Apr 28, 2024 04:29
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Burns posted:Flop or not Waterloo is still a great flick. We likely wont get 20k soviets but you dont really need that many dudes nowadays anyway. The Mosfilm YouTube channel has the director's four film War and Peace cycle and the Battle of Borodino installment is even more impressive
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Apr 28, 2024 05:08
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I watched that Scorsese Silence movie as a chaser to this. Man that movie was an absolutely miserable 2h 40m. I loving loved it.
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Apr 28, 2024 10:42
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Only just got around to catching episode 10 myself, enjoyed it a whole lot. I'll say that Blackthorne's confrontation with Toranaga didn't quite land for me, Blackthorne's insistence on forcing this just didn't seem very well-motivated. That said, having a death-bound Yabu and Toranaga talking shop one last time was a brilliant way of externalising book-Toranaga's internal monologue and worked perfectly.  Jerusalem posted:Also I keep forgetting to ask, but would Blackthorne normally have been allowed near Toranaga with that smaller sword (tanto?) he had? I actually wondered if him being so willing to hand over his sword and pistol to Omi was a mixture of being committed to his suicide if necessary, coming to an understanding about Japanese culture, and also more strategically to put Omi on the back foot so he didn't think to check him for any other weapons? To a degree, this works to show his growing acceptance among the samurai. The smaller sword (this one seems to be a wakizashi rather than the more dagger-sized tanto) is primarily considered a status symbol and is handed off rarely, whereas the longer katana is considered a weapon foremost and thus more acceptable to be temporarily confiscated. Blackthorne being allowed to retain the short sword basically means that his right to wear his status symbol as a hatamoto now outweighs the theoretical risk of an attack.
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Apr 28, 2024 16:24
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Also Blackthorne sucked at swords. Just a real turd with a blade.
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Apr 28, 2024 17:48
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While I loved the show and would recommend it I have to agree that at one point the story after the midpoint felt like it was treading water. Been watching the 80s series and it's really watchable and perhaps complimentary as it's more focused on Blackthorne. I like it better for, for example, emphasizing Blackthorne trying to acquire the language and focusing on this process more and showing his increased language skills better than the new show. Hell, I can even fool myself into thinking I'm learning too!
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Apr 28, 2024 18:57
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Yngwie Mangosteen posted:Also Blackthorne sucked at swords. Just a real turd with a blade. Look, you fight a few naval battles and sail around the world and all everyone in the Japans wants to talk about is how much you suck with some swords Mauser fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Apr 28, 2024 |
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Apr 28, 2024 19:54
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Anyone have any idea how this series was/is received in Japan? If it aired there already at all.
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Apr 28, 2024 23:19
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It’s on Disney Plus. I haven’t heard anyone talk about it or seen any TV appearances by any of the actors plugging it like you often would with Japanese hit shows or movies. Admittedly I probably watch that type of panel show like once or twice a week so I could just be missing it. It seems to just be advertised on the internet, though, so I’m sure there are people watching it but it’s not some huge show or anything. That would require normal Japanese media pushing it
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Apr 28, 2024 23:42
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How have they localized this in Japanese? Apparently the characters speak classical Japanese — would those need regular Japanese subs? Also, the characters speaking Portuguese as English would need to be translated into Japanese which is a lol.
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Apr 28, 2024 23:58
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the classical japanese is not that hard to understand that it would need its own subtitles, but it'd be so funny if the english wasnt translated and that was subtitled instead, something i like a lot about the inversion of that particular paradigm for this story that relies a lot on the tension of translation
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Apr 29, 2024 01:11
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Isn't the Japanese equivalent to like Shakespearian English? It's all "forshooth thy ill hous greatly upset your mother, milady"
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Apr 29, 2024 01:40
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its easier to understand than that (especially since there is a lot of TV and film that speaks that way) but significantly harder to read/write, is my understanding
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Apr 29, 2024 01:46
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I’m pretty sure they just had the Japanese premiere this past week.
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Apr 29, 2024 04:07
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I loved Jarvis. And all the other shittists.
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Apr 29, 2024 05:51
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It launched on Disney+ same time as it did in America. It came out the gate as the #1 show on the service. There's some criticisms that the violence and politics are too exaggerated for the reality. Though that could be samurai apologia driven by the far right over the last 40 years has been really successful at reshaping the narrative. The other is that once you get past a few big names the Japanese cast is relatively no name actors. The Japanese film and TV industry is relatively small and insular and very difficult to break into. This leads to incredibly stacked casts where just about everyone is known. When a production breaks away from this audiences tend to see it as a negative since they're "skimping on paying for talent."
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Apr 29, 2024 05:56
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High Warlord Zog posted:The Mosfilm YouTube channel has the director's four film War and Peace cycle and the Battle of Borodino installment is even more impressive Interesting. I will check it out.
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Apr 29, 2024 16:11
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:There's some criticisms that the violence and politics are too exaggerated for the reality. Though that could be samurai apologia driven by the far right over the last 40 years has been really successful at reshaping the narrative. It could also be typical grognard "I hope someone was fired for that blunder!" BS, any sensible person would understand that this is a "Based on a true story" hyper-reality drama and make allowances for how it breaks from the history that inspired it.
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Apr 29, 2024 21:04
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Toranaga's brother is in Tokyo Vice but he's the only one I've spotted. Lady Fuji 
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Apr 30, 2024 00:39
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:There's some criticisms that the violence and politics are too exaggerated for the reality. Though that could be samurai apologia driven by the far right over the last 40 years has been really successful at reshaping the narrative. It's related to stuff like everyone killing themselves or offering to kill themselves for trivial reasons. Fumi's husband killing himself and his infant in the beginning, for example, is totally nonsensical. It's good for a quasi-fictional dramatic story, but it's not something that would've happened in reality.
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Apr 30, 2024 01:52
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Jamwad Hilder posted:It's related to stuff like everyone killing themselves or offering to kill themselves for trivial reasons. Fumi's husband killing himself and his infant in the beginning, for example, is totally nonsensical. It's good for a quasi-fictional dramatic story, but it's not something that would've happened in reality. yeah that's one change im not fond of, it should've been toranaga's order, not something volunteered. alternatively, if toranaga was shown to be about to order it himself and he rushed to offer it as a last ditch attempt to receive clemency, it'd go down better. that's the big one that was super out there for me.
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Apr 30, 2024 02:08
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:yeah that's one change im not fond of, it should've been toranaga's order, not something volunteered. alternatively, if toranaga was shown to be about to order it himself and he rushed to offer it as a last ditch attempt to receive clemency, it'd go down better. that's the big one that was super out there for me. Well what I mean is that he wouldn't have been ordered to kill himself either. He might've been chastised at most, and that would've been the end of it. Seppuku is something that typically happened for extremely serious offenses as capital punishment, or in the aftermath of a war or battle as a way to save face when you're going to die/be executed anyway. It was not something you would have offered or been ordered to do just for acting above your station and standing up for your lord in an Important Meeting. He's an important son of an important retainer, if it was based in reality Toranaga would have been making excuses for him not to die. Ending his entire line by killing his own son also doesn't have much basis in reality but it's added for drama. Overall the prevalence of seppuku and everyone being obsessed with dying feels like shock value and orientalism that's in the original book, and the show, because it's dramatic and because it makes the reader/viewer think "wow this is such an alien situation for Blackthorne" In real life the situation after Hideyoshi's death but before Sekigahara was just as tense as in the show, with assassination plots and armed confrontations in the streets, but no one was ordered to commit seppuku. There was even an assassination attempt on Tokugawa Ieyasu ordered by Ishida Mitsunari, and then a counter-attempt on Ishida by Tokugawa's generals, and in both cases no one was ordered to kill themselves when the plots failed. They were basically put on house arrest or exiled instead. But, again, that's maybe not as exciting for a work of fiction.
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Apr 30, 2024 02:59
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Yeah, the guy in the first episode did seem pretty unrealistic. At first I thought it was all an act, the guy literally goes from speaking out defending his lord to offering to murder his own baby as recompense in a few seconds. It would have seemed reasonable as a bit of court theater, like a reminder of the loyalty of Toranaga's retainers, and then he just quietly denies the 'request' to commit seppuku the next day and no one ever speaks about it again. But nah, he's for real and the only reason he didn't kill his wife too was because she was too well connected. Good thing that have baby sized funeral urns on hand for just such an occasion.
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Apr 30, 2024 03:21
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Jamwad Hilder posted:Well what I mean is that he wouldn't have been ordered to kill himself either. He might've been chastised at most, and that would've been the end of it. Seppuku is something that typically happened for extremely serious offenses as capital punishment, or in the aftermath of a war or battle as a way to save face when you're going to die/be executed anyway. It was not something you would have offered or been ordered to do just for acting above your station and standing up for your lord in an Important Meeting. He's an important son of an important retainer, if it was based in reality Toranaga would have been making excuses for him not to die. Ending his entire line by killing his own son also doesn't have much basis in reality but it's added for drama. Overall the prevalence of seppuku and everyone being obsessed with dying feels like shock value and orientalism that's in the original book, and the show, because it's dramatic and because it makes the reader/viewer think "wow this is such an alien situation for Blackthorne" yeah, i agree, but in the context of the story and the fiction it would've been a better way to show that toranaga is willing to actively sacrifice strength now in order to come ahead later, as well as emphasising just how dangerous the current political climate is for him. it being totally voluntary is the biggest thing that makes it a much flatter story beat and even more ahistorical and pandering to a certain vision of the era, being a rare total downgrade from the book. denying the request would have also been a better change, allowing them to be killed instead in the flight from osaka, but then you'd have to introduce mariko and fuji differently. maybe the son is made a hostage of a non-ishido regent as part of the punishment
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Apr 30, 2024 03:39
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The scene wasn’t realistic, but it does presage his response in the later scene where his second-in-command threatens to commit seppuku. The man enjoys a politically convenient seppuku.
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Apr 30, 2024 03:44
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:yeah, i agree, but in the context of the story and the fiction it would've been a better way to show that toranaga is willing to actively sacrifice strength now in order to come ahead later, as well as emphasising just how dangerous the current political climate is for him. it being totally voluntary is the biggest thing that makes it a much flatter story beat and even more ahistorical and pandering to a certain vision of the era, being a rare total downgrade from the book. Yeah, it works for the story, I just meant the entire scenario is a good example of what some Japanese viewers are referring to when they say "the violence is exaggerated compared to reality" whereas someone who is not as familiar with Japanese history or culture might assume that's how things really worked in feudal Japan.
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Apr 30, 2024 03:47
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Jamwad Hilder posted:Yeah, it works for the story, I just meant the entire scenario is a good example of what some Japanese viewers are referring to when they say "the violence is exaggerated compared to reality" whereas someone who is not as familiar with Japanese history or culture might assume that's how things really worked in feudal Japan. right we're talking at cross purposes because i said the scene in the show does not work as well as the scene in the book for the story, while also being further from making historical sense. not arguing at all that either circumstance is historically accurate. just saying it was a bad change from the book
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Apr 30, 2024 04:00
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I think its funny that they just casually show that Fuji is Buntaro's sister, which adds another layer to his issues with Blackthrone.
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Apr 30, 2024 04:02
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I think Fuji's husband was just a moron. He could have said "my bad "and everyone would have let it slide but no, he had to escalate!
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Apr 30, 2024 04:47
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You know, I didn't get the point of the Buntaro arrow scene then the apology after. Because first off he's like "hey I'm really sorry about that, I was super drunk", which is already weird because he's like the first person who didn't try to seppuku over a mild embarrassment (maybe foreigners just don't rate that offer?). But then they show all his arrows hit perfectly, which was supposed to mean what, he wasn't actually that drunk? He's still a really good shot when he's drunk?
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Apr 30, 2024 05:01
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I don't recall if it's been fully described before, but the way the situation with Fuji's husband plays out in the books is iirc Ishido is making a bunch of weird non-sequitur jokey insults that may or may not apply to blackthorne OR toranaga and Fujiko's husband takes so much offense that he doesn't just call Ishido out for insulting his lord, he draws his sword and starts to take a swing at Ishido before stopping just in time, so he basically a) insulted his lord by assuming the weird insults were about Toranaga AND also b) came perilously close to murdering one of the Regents while acting in the capacity of service to another, which would have started the civil war while Toranaga was still trapped in Osaka castle surrounded by Ishido's men with only a very small personal guard with him, he would have been immediately killed with all of his chief retainers and also a big chunk of his family, so Toranaga goes 'yo this dumbass must have been born samurai by mistake, go kys dipshit, and your idiot child too' and throughout all of this we get Toranaga's internal monologue about what a dangerous situation it was which I agree is slightly less.. weird, while doing a better job of communicating the stakes and the tension of the situation and Toranaga's willingness to be unsentimentally vicious in pursuit of his goals, but it might have been harder to show that in a SHOW without adding a bunch of additional dialogue of Toranaga explaining something to someone who presumably should already know it.
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Apr 30, 2024 05:10
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Zero VGS posted:You know, I didn't get the point of the Buntaro arrow scene then the apology after. Because first off he's like "hey I'm really sorry about that, I was super drunk", which is already weird because he's like the first person who didn't try to seppuku over a mild embarrassment (maybe foreigners just don't rate that offer?). But then they show all his arrows hit perfectly, which was supposed to mean what, he wasn't actually that drunk? He's still a really good shot when he's drunk? That he's super duper dangerous, and Blackthorne should have listened when Mariko told him not to escalate things.
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Apr 30, 2024 05:11
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hailthefish posted:I don't recall if it's been fully described before, but the way the situation with Fuji's husband plays out in the books is iirc Ishido is making a bunch of weird non-sequitur jokey insults that may or may not apply to blackthorne OR toranaga and Fujiko's husband takes so much offense that he doesn't just call Ishido out for insulting his lord, he draws his sword and starts to take a swing at Ishido before stopping just in time, so he basically a) insulted his lord by assuming the weird insults were about Toranaga AND also b) came perilously close to murdering one of the Regents while acting in the capacity of service to another, which would have started the civil war while Toranaga was still trapped in Osaka castle surrounded by Ishido's men with only a very small personal guard with him, he would have been immediately killed with all of his chief retainers and also a big chunk of his family, so Toranaga goes 'yo this dumbass must have been born samurai by mistake, go kys dipshit, and your idiot child too' and throughout all of this we get Toranaga's internal monologue about what a dangerous situation it was which I agree is slightly less.. weird, while doing a better job of communicating the stakes and the tension of the situation and Toranaga's willingness to be unsentimentally vicious in pursuit of his goals, but it might have been harder to show that in a SHOW without adding a bunch of additional dialogue of Toranaga explaining something to someone who presumably should already know it.
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Apr 30, 2024 05:15
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Aoi posted:That he's super duper dangerous, and Blackthorne should have listened when Mariko told him not to escalate things. I guess but like, Blackthorne just got done watching him fight off an army. I don't think that was in question.
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Apr 30, 2024 05:16
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hailthefish posted:I don't recall if it's been fully described before, but the way the situation with Fuji's husband plays out in the books is iirc Ishido is making a bunch of weird non-sequitur jokey insults that may or may not apply to blackthorne OR toranaga and Fujiko's husband takes so much offense that he doesn't just call Ishido out for insulting his lord, he draws his sword and starts to take a swing at Ishido before stopping just in time, so he basically a) insulted his lord by assuming the weird insults were about Toranaga AND also b) came perilously close to murdering one of the Regents while acting in the capacity of service to another, which would have started the civil war while Toranaga was still trapped in Osaka castle surrounded by Ishido's men with only a very small personal guard with him, he would have been immediately killed with all of his chief retainers and also a big chunk of his family, so Toranaga goes 'yo this dumbass must have been born samurai by mistake, go kys dipshit, and your idiot child too' and throughout all of this we get Toranaga's internal monologue about what a dangerous situation it was which I agree is slightly less.. weird, while doing a better job of communicating the stakes and the tension of the situation and Toranaga's willingness to be unsentimentally vicious in pursuit of his goals, but it might have been harder to show that in a SHOW without adding a bunch of additional dialogue of Toranaga explaining something to someone who presumably should already know it. Lol that kind of rocks tho.
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Apr 30, 2024 05:39
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Zero VGS posted:I guess but like, Blackthorne just got done watching him fight off an army. I don't think that was in question. It is really just to illustrate how dumb it was of Blackthorne to go confront this guy in the street like he was back home in England and it was just some other drunk. This guy is a stone cold killer and even absolutely shithoused he is unerringly lethal. The only thing that prevents Blackthorne dying right there is the decorum and social structure, since the dude obvs hates him.
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Apr 30, 2024 05:46
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twistedmentat posted:I think its funny that they just casually show that Fuji is Buntaro's sister, which adds another layer to his issues with Blackthrone. I believe Fuji is Buntaro’s niece, not sister.
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Apr 30, 2024 06:14
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Zero VGS posted:I guess but like, Blackthorne just got done watching him fight off an army. I don't think that was in question. also to show that he can get away with poo poo behaviour by just saying “sorry. it was the alcohol.” buntaro also didn’t fight off an army, he fought a bunch of peasants. it’s not impressive when a knight fights off peasants. it IS impressive that he made it back, but blackthorne doesn’t know if he had to fight off anyone actually threatening.
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Apr 30, 2024 06:34
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Ah, so now the distilling begins where we are informed of just what a terrible show it was that we got to enjoy for the last 10 weeks.
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Apr 30, 2024 08:43
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Dingleberry2 posted:Ah, so now the distilling begins where we are informed of just what a terrible show it was that we got to enjoy for the last 10 weeks. I loved it I'm just a not smart person and need some stuff explained. If I was gonna poo poo on a show for being lazy, 3 Body was a way easier target. Shogun and even Fallout really surprised me.
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Apr 30, 2024 09:07
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