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Google Jeb Bush posted:they have to do the spoiler thing, it's a crucial plot and character point Not to mention The woman Mariko is based on died much the same way securing Ieyasu's victory and became one of the most revered figures in Japanese history. You cant say you going sp far for accuracy that youre using period specific Japanese then change a major part of their hsitory. I enjoyed the Asian Cycle and I hope this is enough of a success for FX to stick to their original plan of this being an anthology series that covers the other books in sequence. I hope they don't cut one of the funnier scenes in the book. Torunaga sends a courtesan to Blackthorne who refuses because he's married, the Japanese don't realize this so they think 'oh he's gay, let's bring him a man.' Blackthorne further flips out . So the exasperated guards think back to something they heard the Portuguese sailors say so they bring a duck to gently caress. Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 20:39
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A Sneaker Broker posted:Man, watching this show makes me want Ghost of Tsushima 2 to be released already.. Well Rise of the Ronin comes out next month. And you can play Nioh whose main character is the historic inspiration for Blackthorne.
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Feb 28, 2024 22:47
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Steve Yun posted:Can anyone who is old and remembers the 1980 version recount what it was like and how it compares? One thing I’m hearing is that it laid on Japanese stereotypes pretty hard, so much that Japanese audiences groaned over it The mini series ripped out a lot of the politics to focus on a story that'll be coming up in a few episodes. Very little use of subtitles to play up the alieness of Japan and played up the white savior bit that the book did a lot of work to undermine.
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Feb 29, 2024 01:16
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It's a really interesting time for the Jesuits, gonna spoil this since it might make it into the show as an exposition dump, but leading up to 1600 The Jesuits overplayed their hand trying to convert the Taiko and ended up getting 26 priests crucified in Nagasaki so the order is walking on the thinnest of egg shells
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Feb 29, 2024 18:28
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I don't think it's a spoiler since the scene where it's discussed, the discussion with the Jesuit in jail already happened, and it was briefly touched on then. The war with Korea is also why the Jesuits are still around despite Japanese Christians being heavily persecuted. Japan invaded Korea because Korea wouldn't allow them free passage across their borders to invade China. In retaliation for this and a few other skirmishes earlier in the 16th century, China ceased all direct trade with Japan. The Jesuits started working as a go between allowing the sale of Chinese goods in Japan. Catholic colonialism during this time was basically split between the Portugese Jesuits conquering nations economically or Spanish Franciscans conquering militarily.
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Feb 29, 2024 23:31
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:This is also set in a time when a literal peasant became the de facto ruler of Japan (the Taiko). That event has definitely lit a fire in people like ishido who no longer need to respect the hierarchy as a legitimate obstacle to their ambitions. If a peasant can rule, then surely he can. And to quell that behavior, one of the former Taiko's first edicts was making it illegal for a peasant to become a Samurai. One thing that was cut from the show but might help people's understanding of Blackthorne's relationship with Rodriguez, is that Pilots were in a special class of their own at the time. It was a captains ship but the second they lost sight of land, the pilot was in charge and his word was law. At least on Merchant vessels, military was different. So there was a lot of mutual respect considering there were maybe 10-15 people that knew how to sail to Japan from Europe, and they were 2 of them. This part I'll spoil, even though it's a historic fact it might come up as an exposition dump. About the title of Shogun It's not just that Toranaga comes from the family that the last few were from, he's the only leader that has the ability to claim the title. There were three Imperial vassal families and you need to have direct lineage in one of them in order to claim the title.
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Mar 4, 2024 20:45
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Jamwad Hilder posted:The only thing that sucks about this show is that there will only be this one season. They've been going at a good pace so far though. Not as much of the politicking and intrigue as the book but hitting the same beats overall. I mentioned up thread but in the initial announcement foe the series a few years ago they mentioned they bought the rights to all of Clavell's novels and subsequent seasons might be those books. The next season could be Taipan, which is all about the founding of Hong Kong and the Golden triangle.
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Mar 6, 2024 04:49
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No Mods No Masters posted:I guess I'd give taipan by this creative team a shot but also good luck, I feel like that is much inferior source material (and also ends on a huge anticlimax). Yeah, Noble House is a great read and has very little to do with Taipan's story. It's this sweeping epic that gives the feeling of an overpopulated city by running a few dozen plot lines in the background of the main plot. You'll get a random 15 page chapter about a criminal hiding from the police by pretending to be from the same region of this old woman he passed by. The industry titans leading the book will spend half a page on a business decision while the middle and lower class spend 30 pages reeling from it. King Rat is kind of interesting, too, since it has this almost confessional treatment of trans identity that you can tell Clavell is telling the truth about how he handled it despite wishing he had been a better person about it.
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Mar 6, 2024 06:33
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I believe the change was made at the request of the historians. Clavell's views of the Japanese belief in death before capture was informed more by his experiences as a POW while at the time battle hostages and ransom was a regularly practiced.
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Mar 6, 2024 17:59
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I'm not sure why but this poo poo made me laugh for like 4 solid minutes Whirlwind was straight up Looney Tunes. The resolution to the big Starr crossed lovers plot was The woman, realizing Khomeini was not going to respect the progress women made under the Shah, steals a grenade in order to be a martyr during a protest. Her British husband stops her right after she pulls the grabs her hand tight holding the lever in place. They jostle through the crowd to get a clearing, kiss and embrace. Then they explode because they forgot about the grenade.
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Mar 7, 2024 17:12
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MrMojok posted:Please tell me this is real It is, I only have the book on audible else I'd paste the passage from the book. I wonder if Cosmo didn't listen to the audio book in prep for the role. His affected accent is pretty much exactly like the one the narrator used in it.
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Mar 7, 2024 19:19
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:FX has a nice featurette about the costume designs, including that outfit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7k65stCQJE At least in the book, the horny teenager stuff was in part to debunk the 'sexless asian' that was already starting to take hold in American cinema and TV and highlight they could be perceived that way due to colonial influence from England. That and struggling with what he believed to be his own latent homosexuality.
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Mar 12, 2024 19:34
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Party that, partly Japan is very resource poor when it comes to iron and what little they have is very poor quality. It's why Japanese carpentry uses carefully cut joins and tension instead of nails and why there was this mystique of the steel for a katana being folded 500+ times. It needed to be folded that many times so it wouldn't immediately shatter. They do have a poo poo ton of coal though, which was what helped their economic development in the late 19th into the 20th century with growth in steam power.
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Mar 13, 2024 00:18
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C-Euro posted:Great ep, I especially liked the scene of Fuji and Blackthorne exchanging gifts yes, but it's stuff that will likely be in later episodes so I won't go into it. Though you do meet some of his descendants in later books After the episode I looked around for a trailer, couldn't find one but I did see the title for episode 6 which makes me think they're going to cover a fascinating history lesson from the books I was convinced they'd cut.
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Mar 13, 2024 15:16
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Great, studio heads are going to take the wrong lesson again and put subtitles in everything.
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Mar 19, 2024 03:29
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Peanut Butler posted:ohhhh ok I thought the taiko was Goroda, and that those scenes of his death were about 20 years prior to 1600, for some reason A lot of the reasons were already mentioned but another is that the show is about the nobility in an island nation during one of the most pivotal periods. Even the characters with 2- 3 lines have a decent notoriety. Mariko's son has a decent sized wikipedia entry, mainly on the back of his patronage of Miyamoto Musashi. Japan has also kept a very good lineage history. Direct descendants of these characters are still prominent in Japanese politics. The Tokugawa family is one of the richest in the country and protectors of one of the three sacred relics. The Emperor's line is the longest unbroken royalty in the world, dating back to the 4th century. You have to change a little bit otherwise you risk defamation claims.
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Mar 19, 2024 17:13
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You know, like the goon that tried dry aging the hitchhiker they killed.
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Mar 19, 2024 20:49
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Steve Yun posted:Please expand Old forum post, goon tried hanging a haunch of beef in his garage to dry age it without actually knowing how to. After two months he posts in the dry age thread with pics asking if he can just cut off the green parts. Everyone pounced on him for being an absolute idiot and asked why a launch of beef has a sock on it.
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Mar 20, 2024 02:11
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Hideyoshi (the Taiko) was running on the borrowed legitimacy of Nobunaga as a unifier, and everyone wants to use that idea of legitimacy too. He’s still a complicated character in history today, but nobody celebrates the traitor. Again, the Brutus thing rings very true. Well nobody but video games. There's quite a few Nobunaga was a dark evil sorceror games set in the period.
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Mar 20, 2024 15:38
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I like that didn't even try to sanitize the men. Starting every commentary with, "Obviously, as your husband, he has every right to do with you as he wishes..."
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Mar 20, 2024 22:19
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ShowTime posted:Toranaga as a sympathetic character is becoming more and more unbelievable. And I even got caught in it. But when you look at everything he has done leading up to where we are now, it looks kinda bad, doesn't it? He's done everything from letting a father kill himself and his infant child (he was already rebelling, just say no and go about your day) and then forcing the mother of that child to be a consort to Anjin, to imprisoning the Queen and opening rebellion in all of Japan. The showrunners are doing a great job of making us like Toranaga, but he's kind of a dick. Toranaga was already deep behind enemy lines and without his army. Refusing to allow the seppuku would've marked himself and everyone loyal to his as criminals and allowed Ishido to freely kill all of them. The show has been heavy on the theme of words being what lends weight to actions. The samurai immediately jumped to seppuku for himself and his line, putting Toranaga in a no win situation. They also seemed to put heavy emphasis on no one but the regents stepping foot in that room. When the samurai took one step in with violent intent he was threatening the leaders of Japan. There was likely no walking back from that.
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Mar 22, 2024 16:17
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Focus on the cannons is a show thing. In the book, it was muskets. Japan had European style muskets for 50+ years, so they knew the efficacy but didn't know European tactics. That's what they wanted Blackthorne to teach. But there is a bit of truth to the shows depiction of cannons. When the Portuguese introduced muskets and cannons to Japan, they were all the rage, and Japanese blacksmiths took them apart and learned how to make them themselves. Within five years of introduction Japan had stopped buying muskets from the Portuegyese. They didn't iterate on the design, though, so the stuff Blackthorne is bringing has about 50 years advancement on what they're used to. The Japanese also would be more familiar with brass and bronze firearms that are more lightweight but warp relatively fast. Blackthorne's were naval cannons where the weight is less of a factor and would've been iron that can maintain its shape much better.
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Mar 22, 2024 18:18
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YaketySass posted:Will any new iron cannon have to be folded over a thousand times? Yes, the metal folding wasn't actually some artistic technique, it was required because the only iron Japan was able to mine was brittle pig iron. It needed to be folded over and over to build up enough strength to not shatter.
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Mar 24, 2024 18:46
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No Mods No Masters posted:Alright I had a minute to go back and check. In the book mariko negotiates kiku's price down from 5 koban to 1, like a boss. In the show she negotiates it down from 500 moneys to 300 (sad). Cultural update. The koban wasn't a standard currency until after the events of the show. Tokugawa Iyesu was the one that pushed the adoption of it.
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Mar 26, 2024 19:39
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Cojawfee posted:For the partially shaved heads, I read that it was because the helmets would get really hot, so they shaved that part of their head to keep it cooler. So for that reason, I don't really laugh at the Japanese dumb haircuts, since they seem to have a reason. The Portuguese priests I will laugh at all day every day. They have their heads shaved all stupid because of something someone made up in the middle ages. That's just one of those commonly thought reasons that people say but there's no evidence to support it. Like shaving your mustache for gas masks in WW1, or English Englishmen dropping the V because of archers.
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Mar 28, 2024 14:24
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YaketySass posted:I wonder how much trust Toranaga is supposed to have in Blackthorne's words. Here's a foreigner with an obvious agenda who claims his enemies are invaders conspiring against you, and who repeatedly insists on attacking them to serve you. His claims have serious implications but he's hardly in any position to prove anything, right? He wasn't sure, that's why he confronted the Jesuits with what Blackthorne told him. SO when they tried to assassinate Anjin, they pretty much gave the game away.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:32
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Sash! posted:It really was something how China got like 97 percent of the way there, multiple independent times over 1500 years. The prevailing concept was a square Earth rotating in a spherical volume. See, if you rotate a square plane, you'll trace out a circle, which is why the heavens must be a sphere. Somehow I feel like they overthought the problem. I think that might come down to a cycle in Chinese history similar to what Zhang He suffered. Zhang He was a close friend to the Emperor and given a mandate to sail into the world to bring civilization to the barbarians. He sails his fleet, all the way to the Cape of Good Hope, bringing back large amounts of riches to China, picking up loads of topographical data and theories. Before he can sail back out to test the theories, the court starts whispering into the Emperor's ear that Zhang He is more popular than the Emperor and will return to take the throne. The Emperor strips Zhange He of his fleet, banishes him from court, and suppresses almost all information about his journies.
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Mar 29, 2024 20:20
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I wish they weren't so saintly with Toranaga so we would get the reason Gin thought Torunaga was up to something. He visits the tea house the night before and she realizes he fucks with the precise control of a man with a plan.
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Apr 3, 2024 14:59
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Tankbuster posted:some time afterwards the tokugawa started settling samurai down into trades because ronin kept roaming around causing problems. There's like a dozen taiga dramas about "builders of a new meiji japan" that start off with samurai that are just a step above peasants in that they carry swords. A part of that was the rise of Zaibatsus, a merchant class and the Tokugawa themselves. Japan was in this weird realm of Imperial Fuedalism where samurai could not own land under Imperial edict, that was for the peasant class. What the samurai did own was the seed and farming equipment. So the peasants would pay for the seeds and use of the equipment with the harvest. Then the Tokugawa take power and issue an edict that all clan heads must also own and maintain a secondary residence in the capitol creating a massive fiscal drain on the clans so they couldn't afford to raise an army and rebel. So some enterprising peasants start offering contracts for cash in exchange for 20% of the next 5 years harvests. Because overseeing money was women's work and not fit for a Samurai these lords would quickly end up with barely any of the harvest for themselves to pay taxes. It got so bad that three times in the 250 years of the shogunate edicts were declared eradicating these contracts and giving the full harvest back to the samurai. In the end most of the Meiji restoration forces were made up of these ronin bankrupted and displaced by government policy.
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Apr 4, 2024 21:55
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:If I recall, millet was their main food. For anyone that's interested, part of FX's ad campaign was sponsoring an episode of Tasting History highlighting a typical banquet of the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXQA6CsBpig
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Apr 5, 2024 03:53
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It was only technically up to the Emperor, he didn't really get a say. It's up to tradition. Only a member of one of three clans has the right to claim the title based on their status as splinters of the Imperial family. All but two shoguns came from Tokugawa's clan. Nobunaga Oda had made a claim to being a member of the third family that hadn't supplied one before bit was killed before the ceremony.
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Apr 5, 2024 14:49
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AFewBricksShy posted:I was looking at IMBD and it's kind of blowing my mind that Tadanobu Asano, (Yabushige) is the dude with the scarred face from Ichi the killer. Huh, he was also Hogun in the Thor movies.
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Apr 5, 2024 16:42
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Cojawfee posted:It's just a meta commentary on when I made a comment earlier in the thread where I thought it was funny that they were using rice as a valuable commodity when buying a sack of rice and a sack of beans is the cheapest way to feed yourself where I live and a bunch of goons jumped on my post with "well ACKCHUALLY white rice is the most valuable thing you can get in some countries" or whatever the hell they were saying. I can't speak to other countries, but they're absolutely right for Japan. The nobility viewed white rice as such a delicacy that it made up a ludicrously high amount of their diet, while the peasantry ate brown rice, barley and millet. It was so imbalanced that, until around WWI, thiamin deficiency was one of the leading causes of death among the upper class. The cause of the disease was only discovered because, during the Russo-Japanese war, the government decided that white rice was the most efficient way to feed the troops and suddenly the normally healthy peasant class were all contracting this disease of the nobility. 47,000 Japanese soldiers were killed during fighting and another 27,000 died from beriberi.
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Apr 7, 2024 21:21
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No Mods No Masters posted:That was a pretty predictable cut for both historical accuracy and good taste reasons, I think the way the eta are depicted in the book is felt to be borderline offensive. Maybe not even borderline It was, but that's more on the research material that Clavell used than his personal shortcomings. It wasn't until within the last 20 years or so that Eta or Hinin started being viewed as unacceptable slurs in the general populace for the Burakumin and their descendants. Even when Clavell was writing Shogun if it was discovered someone was a member of the ethnic group it would mean the death of their career and expulsion from religious communities. It wasn't until the late 70s that Japan passed a law barring consulting the government's genealogical records for employment checks.
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Apr 9, 2024 17:25
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Also hearkens back to Toranaga's line to his son in episode 3 that an ally is just someone that hasn't had a reason to betray you yet. Hiromatsu was the one person Toranaga would've bent that rule for
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Apr 9, 2024 20:04
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I think it coming off as murder is just a side effect of converting just how relieved Ochiba was to be rid of her. The show has been drawing the parallels between Mariko and Ochiba. The Taiko was Ochiba's Buntaro, and the wife was the one who trapped her in that life.
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Apr 10, 2024 14:51
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Akechi betrayed Nobunaga before the end of the unification wars, too. It was part of why the rebellion ultimately failed. When he realized the fight was lost, Nobunaga committed seppuku, and his body was smuggled out of the castle while his remaining retainers sallied forth to create a distraction. Akechi sent messengers to the hold out lords asking for their support, but one of the messengers was intercepted by Hideyoshi that was in the middle of sieging one of them. With Hideyoshi responding faster than he planned and no lords willing to lend support without firm proof that Nobunaga was dead he had to surrender.
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Apr 10, 2024 19:58
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Jamwad Hilder posted:I dunno where you're getting this from but Nobunaga's body was never found, not smuggled out anywhere. It probably burned up. He probably did commit seppuku though. I never called then a minor clan, just one of the few remaining hold outs. https://jbpress.ismedia.jp/articles/-/79367 This article goes into why not being able to recover the body doomed Akechi's rebellion and talks about some of the legends of Nobunaga's body being smuggled out and some of the gravesites that claim to be his final resting place. It also mentions how Hideyoshi lied about Nobunaga still being alive to keep several clans loyal until after the rebellion was put down.
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Apr 11, 2024 14:26
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:that would be impressive since america isnt a country at this point Worked for Apocalypto.
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Apr 13, 2024 06:58
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Stegosnaurlax posted:That's kinda been the standard since the beginning. I was nervous at the start, given I had just watched her in Monarch. But I guess that's almost entirely down to the writing than the acting.
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Apr 17, 2024 04:06
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