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Tarnop posted:I thought the first episode was awful and haven't watched any more. I didn't like any of the three lead performances or the massive amount of redundant and repetitive exposition. Is there any point me watching more or do these things stay largely the same / get worse It such a mixed bag. The first episode amazed me by not being complete garbage but still filled with so much tedious exposition. Then subsequent episodes were like ping pong with "I like this, ohhh I don't like that, oh but thats not so bad, oh but that's terrible" and so on an so forth. The Overanalyzing Avatar youtube channel did a quick breakdown of the whole show and I agree with all of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9UeCJgiGLA
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Mar 4, 2024 15:46
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Tarnop posted:I thought the first episode was awful and haven't watched any more. I didn't like any of the three lead performances or the massive amount of redundant and repetitive exposition. Is there any point me watching more or do these things stay largely the same / get worse To be a more dissenting voice in the thread, I finished the show after giving it the benefit of the doubt and hearing it got better after the first episode. I was marginally okay with it on episodes 2 and 3, but the cracks in the writing got too big to ignore by episode 4. The writing is very blunt for a show ostensibly aimed at adults, like it felt almost insulting for a character to stare at the camera and directly tell me "he isn't a monster, he's just hurt. Pain changes who you are." or "The avatar went THIS way but your uncle went THAT way, which path will you choose........." And I'm really doing my best to separate the nostalgia for the show from this new venture. On its own merits, this new show does not accomplish what it sets out to achieve. The last three episodes fumble the ball pretty hard. Having Zuko actually fight his father in the duel undercuts the entire message the writers directly tell you they want to be the point of the scene. Ozai punishes Zuko for having compassion, but rather than trust the audience to piece together the idea from the fact that Zuko spoke up in defense of unknown soldiers, he pulls his punch in the fight and Ozai tells the camera "compassion is weakness". The entire sexism plot of the northern tribe is handled so badly that the framing and actions of everyone make it look like it was just Pakku being a shithead and everyone else hated it. Aang's merging with the ocean spirit being presented as a form of uh, suicide by ego death sure was a choice. I still enjoy the performances of the main actors, but it really is in spite of the writing.
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Mar 4, 2024 15:48
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Mercury Hat posted:To be a more dissenting voice in the thread, I finished the show after giving it the benefit of the doubt and hearing it got better after the first episode. I was marginally okay with it on episodes 2 and 3, but the cracks in the writing got too big to ignore by episode 4. The writing is very blunt for a show ostensibly aimed at adults, like it felt almost insulting for a character to stare at the camera and directly tell me "he isn't a monster, he's just hurt. Pain changes who you are." or "The avatar went THIS way but your uncle went THAT way, which path will you choose........." Also they for some reason cut the whole revelation of him once being engaged to Katara’s grandmother But yeah, the show never really went above “ok” to me though I appreciate them fleshing out some of the characters like Suki and Yue as well as adding some stuff that appeared in later works such as Korra, the comics, and the Kyoshi novels (not too wild about what they did with Bumi though)
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Mar 4, 2024 16:02
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I think the show does best when it's putting it's own spin on the story from the cartoon. Episodes 2-6 to me are the best part of the season. Episode one has too much repetition of exposition. It's clear that episode was screen tested to death and someone told them they had to keep reiterating things because a non familiar audience wasn't picking things up fast enough. Episodes 2-4 are pretty much the best stretch of the series. Using familiar plot beats but remixing them in a way that makes sense. Episodes 5 & 6 are good but could have been better as three episodes. There was a lot of good personal character moments in these episodes that were hindered by plot movement getting in the way and forcing it to move too quickly. The final two episodes are fine but they are easily the closest this series comes to doing a 1:1 recreation of the cartoon and I'd rather they did some different stuff. Bringing in Kuruk was a good change. More time should have been given to Hahn (also a good change) and the other young waterbender boys that eventually look to Katara for guidance. There was some good new stuff injected here but wasn't given enough time to shine. I hope a second season moves farther away from adapting exact plot points as the play out in the cartoon and moves more toward combining and weaving them together to make something better. As great as some of the special effects are, and that finale looks like it had a movie size budget, this show really shines when we're dealing with the quieter character moments and character relationships. And there wasn't enough time for a lot of that because plot had to happen to make people happy. I wish they'd worry less about fitting stuff in for the sake of fitting it in going forward.
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Mar 4, 2024 16:05
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The one change I can't get over, and I'd love to hear the writers discuss, is Aang not actually running away.
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Mar 4, 2024 16:13
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PriorMarcus posted:The one change I can't get over, and I'd love to hear the writers discuss, is Aang not actually running away. Yeah, in this version he just went for a joyride to clear his head and was about to come back when he got caught in the storm (yet the show still treats it like he abandoned his duty)
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Mar 4, 2024 16:18
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Larryb posted:Yeah, in this version he just went for a joyride to clear his head and was about to come back when he got caught in the storm (yet the show still treats it like he abandoned his duty) It's weird as gently caress that they have multiple characters call him out on it but he never stands-up for himself, and him and Sokka/Katara never discuss it. It's missing beats like this that really makes the show feel more like a 'greatest hits' and less like it has it's own identity.
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Mar 4, 2024 16:21
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I really appreciated what the show did. I do agree with some of the above, but perhaps less critically. I'm now an adult who really liked the original material. I can't really imagine getting into the live action if you hadn't watched the cartoon. The way they've brought a child's cartoon into the real world absolutely worked for me, the casting and costumes, the world and the bending. I'm excited for book 2! Nostalgia for the original never interfered with me enjoying this either (changing and rearranging plot and character developments). I don't have an encyclopedic memory of the events in the show, so I haven't had to worry about nitpicking. The themes and motivations I remember are well represented, and again amazingly well done considering the very adult levels of violence and destruction always just off-screen in a show about adolescents grappling with responsibility in a world on fire. But watching this as your first experience with A:TLA seems odd. I don't think I'd dig it. Seems a commercial mistake to release a show that requires viewing a cartoon to get into (for example I haven't watched Ahsoka, since nobody could get me to watch the clone wars), but gently caress economics they made this show for me!
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Mar 4, 2024 19:11
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I liked it despite never having seen the original.
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Mar 4, 2024 19:28
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The Lord Bude posted:I liked it despite never having seen the original. Watch the original then, it still holds up pretty well
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Mar 4, 2024 19:31
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Yeah, the original is worth watching, so is Legend of Korra.
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Mar 4, 2024 19:40
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Larryb posted:Watch the original then, it still holds up pretty well I’m tempted but I also kinda want to wait for the current show to finish so I don’t spoil it. I’m curious though, was the original cartoon aimed at younger kids, and they’ve just tonally aimed the live action show at an older overall audience, or is the cartoon tonally similar to the live action show? As much as I like the live action show I’m not sure if I can get into a cartoon that’s aimed at kids. The Lord Bude fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Mar 4, 2024 |
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Mar 4, 2024 19:43
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I'm a manchild, so who knows if what I say is valid, but it seems mature enough that an adult can watch it. They goof around a lot because they are kids, but they also have to deal with really important topics. I've only ever watched the show as an adult. I was introduced to it by some friends when I was in school in the air force and then I watched it again a couple years ago.
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Mar 4, 2024 19:51
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The Lord Bude posted:I’m tempted but I also kinda want to wait for the current show to finish so I don’t spoil it. The first half season is very much kids' show before it finds its footing. After that it's more mature, though still aimed at younger audiences than live action. It's definitely worth a try, but if you've seen the live action and don't like the first couple episodes skip to the mid-season two-parter.
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Mar 4, 2024 19:52
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BRJurgis posted:I really appreciated what the show did. I do agree with some of the above, but perhaps less critically. Overall I absolutely loved the live action show. It was great. I just think that with minor adjustments you could make it stand by itself instead of being in conversation with the cartoon so much.
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Mar 4, 2024 21:01
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Killer robot posted:The first half season is very much kids' show before it finds its footing. After that it's more mature, though still aimed at younger audiences than live action. It's definitely worth a try, but if you've seen the live action and don't like the first couple episodes skip to the mid-season two-parter. I believe they sort of matured the show, so to speak, when they realized that the demo watching was teens and not the younger set they had originally envisioned.
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Mar 4, 2024 22:10
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Dawgstar posted:I believe they sort of matured the show, so to speak, when they realized that the demo watching was teens and not the younger set they had originally envisioned. The production cycle on Western animation was way too long for any kind of major midseason corrections even in 2005, and a lot of the maturing of the show happened over season 1. But it's totally possible for the later parts.
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Mar 4, 2024 23:55
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Season 2 is such a leap of over Season 1 I can believe there was a shift. And Season 3 is such a leap over that it's hard to ignore the idea that they started writing to an older audience. I've really only ever heard two complaints about Season 3 of Avatar. One is the Ember Island Players episode being dumb and bad and that opinion is objectively false, it's awesome. The second the Lion Turtle being a cop out and deus ex machina. I don't necessarily agree with that one, but I wouldn't argue against it if you believed it.
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Mar 5, 2024 00:50
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The Lord Bude posted:I’m tempted but I also kinda want to wait for the current show to finish so I don’t spoil it. The answer is one of the things I found cool about the original. I was high school/college age when I first saw it (and 20s when I watched it in order), but it was clear that it was more adult (Mature? Real?) than a "kids show" I'd expect. And not in a weird way like the animes I've tried to go back and watch (I don't think streaming sites use have the same versions toonami ran! Sharing DragonBall didn't even make it to the world martial arts tournament). Can't really experience it fresh myself, obviously, but there's more depth than "kids show". It's called "The Last Airbender", and you find out why there's only one left. Here's all these individual people that make up the world, so you can know and feel why you should fight for it and why we need each other. Even getting into fighting it on your own terms and responsibility. Maybe this isn't that unique to stories but it's still fuckin badass! And they have Planeteer element powers! PriorMarcus posted:Overall I absolutely loved the live action show. It was great. I just think that with minor adjustments you could make it stand by itself instead of being in conversation with the cartoon so much. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Mar 5, 2024 |
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Mar 5, 2024 00:55
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If you're big on the visual parts of animation, there's also a certain level of "what if a martial arts anime actually had the budget to animate martial arts.?" Though it's more than just total budget. Even when they contract out the same Korean studios, Western and Japanese animation often tend to spend their money in different ways, prioritizing different aspects of quality and production speed. It works to AtLA's benefit in that there's a lot more natural and fluid motion than most anime aim for, and it really helps the flavor of the action and worldbuilding regarding bending.
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Mar 5, 2024 01:05
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X-O posted:Season 2 is such a leap of over Season 1 I can believe there was a shift. And Season 3 is such a leap over that it's hard to ignore the idea that they started writing to an older audience. I've really only ever heard two complaints about Season 3 of Avatar. One is the Ember Island Players episode being dumb and bad and that opinion is objectively false, it's awesome. The second the Lion Turtle being a cop out and deus ex machina. I don't necessarily agree with that one, but I wouldn't argue against it if you believed it. I've also heard people didn't like The Beach which is similarly objectively wrong.
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Mar 5, 2024 02:01
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X-O posted:Season 2 is such a leap of over Season 1 I can believe there was a shift. And Season 3 is such a leap over that it's hard to ignore the idea that they started writing to an older audience. I've really only ever heard two complaints about Season 3 of Avatar. One is the Ember Island Players episode being dumb and bad and that opinion is objectively false, it's awesome. The second the Lion Turtle being a cop out and deus ex machina. I don't necessarily agree with that one, but I wouldn't argue against it if you believed it. Eh, I actually think the overarching plot line of S3 in regards to the war and the various battles is done a bit poorly. At the start of the show, the fire nation is already stronger than all their enemies combined but they are unable to overcome their defensive fortifications. Then Ba Sing Se, the single strongest military force, is taken over. But they still have enough various allies that they can mount a resistance attack during the eclipse. This also fails with most of the resistance captured. Although Bumi singlehandedly took back Omashu so that's a win I guess. At this point there's basically 6 kids and the White Lotus masters and they manage to somehow re-take Ba Sing Se AND defeat the fire nation aerial attack AND take out Ozai simultaneously. It's a bit odd that none of the various military forces show up and none of the various allies they've made over the course of the show that were there on the day of the eclipse ever really appear again. It seems almost too easy given how much of an underdog they are. I personally would have changed this so that they retake Ba Sing Se prior to the appearance of Sozin's Comet and mount a defense against Ozai's ground forces + scorched earth aerial attack, which would make a lot more sense if he wants to wipe out Ba Sing Se in one massive attack as opposed to getting mad at some random guerilla attacks or whatever and deciding to burn it all down. And you could have both water tribes show up to help with the defense in full force along with the various allies from the eclipse attack. Maybe the sun warriors show up too IDK. But outside of this, season 3 is very good although I love the original show in general. Do people really not like the Ember Island Players ep? It's probably in my top 5 episodes between the Toph reveal and the random meta jokes like what happened with Jet. koolkal fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Mar 5, 2024 |
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Mar 5, 2024 02:05
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Ember Island Players was an absolutely incredible experience to watch live. Just a massive shitpost about the entire series and its fanbase and the entire journey that happened in story and in real life up to that point.
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Mar 5, 2024 02:28
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Ember Island Players probably remains my favorite way to do a recap episode (though Korra’s was kind of funny as well). It’s just the show completely taking the piss out of itself with a little bit of character content thrown in for good measure
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Mar 5, 2024 02:32
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Larryb posted:Also they for some reason cut the whole revelation of him once being engaged to Katara’s grandmother The original ATLA is one of the greatest series of all time and altered me on fundamental levels...but it's also pretty clunky in a lot of ways that we wave off for being part and parcel of a cartoon on Nickelodeon. The overall depiction of the Katara/Pakku stuff was definitely better in the original -- better fight, better Katara, etc -- but frankly the live-action show has the better resolution, imo. Now, unfortunately, the LA does end up adding a whole lot of its own clunky awkward elements  ...but I don't think it changing a lot of the cartoon's plot is inherently bad, and that the whole finale in the North is filled with changes for the better. The Pakku resolution is one. Yue actually having a personality is another...like, oh I actually care now when this person dies. Aang being in danger of losing his identity to the Ocean Spirit, and Katara having to talk out of it, is also an improvement on the resolution of s1 just being a big Koi Ex Machina.I mean, the showrunners really oughta have a couple more passes at some of their changes -- Aang "running away," the Bumi stuff -- but their general instinct to make adjustments is a good one, I think.
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Mar 5, 2024 03:30
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Larryb posted:Ember Island Players probably remains my favorite way to do a recap episode (though Korra’s was kind of funny as well). It’s just the show completely taking the piss out of itself with a little bit of character content thrown in for good measure I think Korra's recap episode was because they'd gotten a budget cut, which is why season 4 feels like its missing some plot and fleshing out of certain character beats. Korra is one of my favorite shows but that's really up to it coming in with all the strengths of 3 seasons of Avatar at its back and delivering some of the nicest looking animation and voice acting and overall production in all of western tv animation. It really fumbled some plot points in its first two seasons sadly. At least season 3 is almost perfect.
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Mar 5, 2024 04:18
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Finished it. Good stuff: Iroh and Zuko's actors and additional relationship scenes More interactions between Aang and Iroh Streamlining of some stories like moving the mechanist to Omashu Yue's early appearance was a good choice Sokka and Suki's relationship The reveal that everyone on Zuko's ship was part of Ozai's sacrificial pawn strategy (this wasn't part of the original, right?) Not sure how I feel about Aang and Zuko actually having a conversation following the Blue Spirit adventure but I'm leaning towards good Bad stuff: Bad case of "tell, don't show" Bumi is now an angry old man Iroh's role in the finale was played down; he's not around for the revival of the moon spirit and none of the Gaang are even around when he turns on Zhao Missed opportunities to improve on the original--Katara still turns into a master waterbender largely offscreen and now it's just over 8 episodes, so it feels like it took even less time than the original's 20 (and this despite the runtime actually being longer than the original book 1) lmao stuff: cabbage merchant getting the "Avengers Assemble" treatment where they keep cutting him off from saying "cabbages" until the very end of the ep when he screams his line Also, if those reports are true that Netflix wanted it to lean more Game of Thronesy, I think Korra would actually have been an ideal candidate for remaking. Remixing Korra to have themes of communism, theocracy, anarchy, and fascism all running in parallel instead of being treated like one-season monsters could have worked!
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Mar 5, 2024 05:54
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There was actually time in almost every episode devoted to Katara either training or talking about training. And even a few times where she was practicing motions in the background of a scene where she wasn't the focus without even any water being around (when they were in The Mechanist's house). She even mentions how she's learned everything on the scroll and talks about integrating earth bending ideas to make her own new moves. I think they did a good job of her not just developing skills out of the blue.
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Mar 5, 2024 06:43
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Argue posted:Not sure how I feel about Aang and Zuko actually having a conversation following the Blue Spirit adventure but I'm leaning towards good Just a little thing but this is from the cartoon too, nearly word for word.
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Mar 5, 2024 14:04
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PriorMarcus posted:Just a little thing but this is from the cartoon too, nearly word for word. One of their scenes is, the scene where Aang monologues to an implacable Zuko, but I think the scene before it where they actually talk to each other while hiding in a shed is a pure show invention.
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Mar 5, 2024 14:18
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Open Source Idiom posted:One of their scenes is, the scene where Aang monologues to an implacable Zuko, but I think the scene before it where they actually talk to each other while hiding in a shed is a pure show invention. Oh sorry, yes, that's 100% right.
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Mar 5, 2024 14:24
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If this continues I wonder if they'll make Toph as obscenely powerful as she is in the cartoon, since they seem to not be into having individuals be very powerful by themselves.
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Mar 5, 2024 14:29
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kiminewt posted:If this continues I wonder if they'll make Toph as obscenely powerful as she is in the cartoon, since they seem to not be into having individuals be very powerful by themselves. Bumi was pretty powerful. He seemed to be able to do everything he did with relative ease.
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Mar 5, 2024 14:46
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I think they're trying to temper it to avoid conversations like "why is the Gaang always on the run? they could easily take down that whole battalion of Fire Nation soldiers" and possibly also as a way to show that a) they're still mastering their abilities and b) they're children that are fighting against full-grown adults. That Azula can easily school any that challenges her is shown as impressive, but a very limited strategy, but are they trying to show how Azula becomes the master manipulator she is in the OG? Maybe this is just laying more groundwork for the eventual "Aang, you have to kill Ozai, you can't let this monster live" conversation and setting the stage for the showdown between Zuko and Azula. On that note, someone earlier said that they can't see this version of Iroh saying the "oh no, she's crazy! You have to take her put" thing before Zuko and Katara go to Azula. I wonder if we will get some kind of a glib remark of "you may have to do something you'll regret the rest of your life, but it will be the correct choice" to pair up with Aang and Ozai. Not that it'll matter, I see no reason for them to change the execution of The Last Agne Kai
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Mar 5, 2024 18:51
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Argue posted:The reveal that everyone on Zuko's ship was part of Ozai's sacrificial pawn strategy (this wasn't part of the original, right?) X-O already covered it, but one of the few things I'd heard someone mention before I started watching the show was a complaint about Katara becoming a master out of nowhere. So I ended up having that on my mind during my watch and thought it was really well done how organically they showed her progressing as the season went on.
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Mar 5, 2024 19:32
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Crumps Brother posted:X-O already covered it, but one of the few things I'd heard someone mention before I started watching the show was a complaint about Katara becoming a master out of nowhere. So I ended up having that on my mind during my watch and thought it was really well done how organically they showed her progressing as the season went on. One of the main problems with not showing Aang learning from her is you miss the payoff in the final episode that brings it all full circle, which I would of thought they would want to keep intact.
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Mar 5, 2024 22:51
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Having Katara just sorta teach herself waterbending makes it seem more like a magic than a martial art, the latter of which being what makes bending so interesting conceptually, and perhaps one of the only things I will readily argue is not something one can reasonably teach themselves how to do. Katara in the LA show feels like Mulan from the LA Mulan, whereas animated Katara feels like animated Mulan. I don't know if that makes sense,
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Mar 6, 2024 01:51
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PriorMarcus posted:One of the main problems with not showing Aang learning from her is you miss the payoff in the final episode that brings it all full circle, which I would of thought they would want to keep intact.
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Mar 6, 2024 02:03
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Bleck posted:Having Katara just sorta teach herself waterbending makes it seem more like a magic than a martial art, the latter of which being what makes bending so interesting conceptually, and perhaps one of the only things I will readily argue is not something one can reasonably teach themselves how to do. ok, but, like, Katara is self-taught in the cartoon as well. She doesn't get actual vocational instruction until she gets to the Northern Water Tribe, and even then it isn't until after she has her showdown with Pakku. She gets some instructions from Aang (which is more general bending technique, since he's learning waterbending right beside her), but the majority of her learning waterbending is natural ability and the scroll she steals from the pirates. The largest change they made in LA is Aang not practicing with her or attempting to do ANY waterbending alongside her, everything else about Katara's development isn't that different (ok, that and Gran Gran gave her the scroll instead of them stealing from pirates, but considering how awkward the minstrels were, the pirates would've been even worse, unless the creators were prepared to go the Our Flag Means Death route)
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Mar 6, 2024 03:17
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Aces High posted:ok, but, like, Katara is self-taught in the cartoon as well. She doesn't get actual vocational instruction until she gets to the Northern Water Tribe, and even then it isn't until after she has her showdown with Pakku. She gets some instructions from Aang (which is more general bending technique, since he's learning waterbending right beside her), but the majority of her learning waterbending is natural ability and the scroll she steals from the pirates. She develops a lot of good instincts and is clearly a prodigy herself, but she also benefits greatly from having a teacher - she goes from a talented but inexperienced waterbender to one of the best in the world under Pakku's tutelage because she put in the effort to develop her natural talents. I think having Katara's bending being almost entirely self-taught not only undermines the feminist underpinnings of her season one character arc, but also devalues the main character's quest - if someone can become a master bender by just fuckin' believing in themselves or whatever, then why does Aang, or any avatar for that matter, need to find teachers from the other disciplines? The show doesn't "Mary Sue" Katara as some of the chuddier parts of the fanbase have been saying, but I do think most of the changes in her arc were for the worse.
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Mar 6, 2024 04:54
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