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I think the atelier studio goes away when you switch to your third tier government
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Apr 11, 2024 01:53
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Yeah, it turns out after checking the wiki I had it wrong thinking it would be one of the benefits that didn't end when you changed age/government. Are buildings different than the stat buffs like Fengshui and Five Grains from the Imperial Dynasty? Those stuck around for the rest of the game for me.
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Apr 11, 2024 02:54
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Canopus250 posted:Utopia was utterly disappointing as unlocking a late game option that's worse than a regular city is a choice. They're not worse than a regular city at all. Very limited and specialized, yes, but not in any way worse. Every brain coral resource on the map represents 20 research or 20 culture (or a couple other similarly powerful options) once you refine it. That's extremely powerful. It takes way, way more investment to get a standard city producing that much. Also, arcana doesn't disappear when you age up, it just stops appearing. Any arcana that you haven't already hoovered remains in place. Zurai fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 11, 2024 03:01
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Atelier Studios are also part of a building chain and get obsoleted fairly quickly by Universities or something
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Apr 11, 2024 03:08
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Zurai posted:They're not worse than a regular city at all. Very limited and specialized, yes, but not in any way worse. Every brain coral good on the map represents 20 research or 20 culture (or a couple other similarly powerful options) once you refine it. That's extremely powerful. It takes way, way more investment to get a standard city producing that much. I'll admit I might have hosed up with the underwater city, but I didn't have any good spots for both power and coral in that game. 20 culture would have been rather piddly as I was popping off a Culture power every 3 or 4 turns. It seemed just far too late in the game to really get up to speed compared to the four or five mega territories I had with populations in the fifties. Uncollected arcana in my own territory was absolutely removed when I advanced to the next age, but any of it out in unclaimed tiles or my allies did stay there. Edit: with the Atelier it was that the University was statistically worse with the bonuses I had accrued by that point and having researched the tech that gave me the University it removed the Atelier as a building I could make in a newly integrated city which I hadn't expected V: Yeah, those research gains are pretty insane then actually. The game I did with the Age of Alchemy was all prepatch so maybe that is it Canopus250 fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 11, 2024 03:14
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Power can be exported from your mainland cities. So can food, religion, etc. You also don't have to worry very much about needs once you hit 10 pop because they can't grow naturally anyway. And I was absolutely able to continue harvesting arcana from my core cities after the age switch, I specifically watched out for it. This was pre-patch though, so maybe that changed things in the background? EDIT: And again, that's 20 research/culture from a single brain coral resource. Just one. Four pop total, two to harvest and two to refine. If you're running Mound Builders then the culture may not be as important, but the research is still the best in the game. Zurai fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 11, 2024 03:20
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I get why for gameplay purposes every variant age has to be followed by a normal age but it’s kind of funny imagining those steampunk airships and automatons being wrecked by mark iv tanks and traumatized doughboys with bolt actions or people going “hey remember when we had underwater cities in the 80s? Pretty wild!”
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Apr 11, 2024 04:04
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I'm not thrilled about the way researching automata farms and plantations means you can't build non-aether versions until the automata ones get obsoleted, since any city without aether supply can no longer harvest new resource nodes. You can send aether from other cities to that city of course, but you may not have the capacity for that in the aether-harvesting cities since you only have up to 3 export slots and a region can only export goods to a single target region at a time.
AG3 fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 11, 2024 13:46
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AG3 posted:I'm not thrilled about the way researching automaton farms and plantations means you can't build non-aether versions until the automaton ones get obsoleted, since any city without aether supply can no longer harvest new resource nodes. You can send aether from other cities to that city of course, but you may not have the capacity for that in the aether-harvesting cities since you only have up to 3 export slots and a region can only export goods to a single target region at a time. It's not like the improvement does nothing if you don't have aether to convert. It just won't give you whatever the aether conversion is. They still have a better return than older-age improvements. There might be other reasons for not wanting to upgrade (for example, they replace the Age of Monuments farm/plantation improvements that give housing in addition to harvesting resources, which could cause problems) but they don't remove your ability to harvest goods in cities without aether.
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Apr 11, 2024 15:52
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Yeah, it's true that they don't do nothing without aether, but they feel worse than the previous generation if you went Age of Monuments since not only do you lose the housing, you also need to pay a power upkeep (which is extra harsh if you don't have any aether to turn into power). In addition, the automata farm/plantations requires specialists to build while the older farms just takes regular labor, and specialists are a premium early on. But most importantly, I can't accept the red aether deficiency icons! It just would've been nice to have the option to build the old tech sometimes.
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Apr 11, 2024 16:01
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AG3 posted:It just would've been nice to have the option to build the old tech sometimes. This I heartily agree with. there are definitely cases where the "upgrades" are downgrades in some way and losing access to the old versions sucks. This is true with both improvements and buildings.
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Apr 11, 2024 16:04
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Another annoying case is that the soviet farm obsoletes the automata farm, but while the automata farm gets the extra worker slot from Worker Cooperative in the Modernization national spirit (extra worker slot in modern non-civic buildings), the soviet farm does not. So on a wheat deposit you get 23 less food with a soviet farm compared to an automata farm with aether, or 17 without aether. It also uses 1 more power. Also also, if you upgrade an automata farm to a soviet farm but hit the undo button because it was a clear downgrade, you don't actually get back the extra worker slot from Worker Cooperative, and since you can't build an automata farm from scratch anymore the loss is permanent, though this is a bug so that's not something I'll hold against the game as a design flaw. Speaking of the GMO farm, you can "upgrade" GMO farms to soviet farms though they are much worse for food output, but the two exist simultaneously and can be built so they're probably considered sidegrades by the game. There's no upgrade icon over the GMO farm on the map like with obsoleted improvements, just the icon when you select them that you can click on, but it only works one way; you can't change a soviet farm to a GMO farm without tearing it down and building it manually. It also has the same bug as the automata farm where upgrading to a soviet farm then undoing it destroys the extra worker slot. AG3 fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 11, 2024 17:09
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The undo function is... rather buggy. I softlocked the game once by attacking with an army, forcing the enemy to retreat (with my army moving into the displaced enemy's hex), upgrading one of my units in that army to a leader, then undoing. What happened is that it reverted the combat, movement, and promotion... except that it didn't move the promoted unit back with the rest of the army. That meant I had a random pikeman mixed in with the enemy army. I had nominal control of the army, but couldn't actually move or attack with it, and deleting a unit from the army made it so I couldn't select the army anymore but it still showed up as an army without orders, so I couldn't progress the game.
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Apr 11, 2024 17:24
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Ctrl-click to attack but not advance is something I’ve wanted for literal decades in 4X game and I hope this gets future ones off their rear end to implement it.
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Apr 11, 2024 18:48
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As i said, my issue is balancing my progression with defense, and what has been happening is I will ROCKET through tech until the early modern era (so age of aether, harmony etc) at that point, things start to slow way down because the AI becomes hyper mega aggressive at that point and I'm just constantly at war, and now all my cities need to build units to throw into the endless meat grinder wars are in this game (it seems like the game is explicitly designed to not be able to completely destroy armies unless they're already near death, no matter the tech differance. 2 tanks, 2 mgs and 2 assult rifles vs a mish mash of pikes, knights, crossbows and giant crossbows shouldn't be a hard fought battle when both are in grassland) so i end up falling behind. There has to be some trick to continually improving your tech output without sacrificing your ability to defend, or just avoid wars. Alliances are worthless because the computer will just end then and invade 3 turns later. I've said it before, but a reduction in AI aggressiveness would really help improve this game.
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Apr 11, 2024 20:10
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I've found that the AI is extremely aggressive diplomatically at all points in the game, but they're extremely conservative with their armies. They'll surround a city with like 5 armies and then just sit there because they can't win without taking significant losses. They almost never attack unless they have an absolutely overwhelming 1-to-1 advantage. Their army composition also frequently sucks (I've mentioned it before but I swear half their armies are siege-siege-ranged-siege-ranged with no front line) so it's usually pretty easy to roll them up over the course of a few turns as long as you're willing to use your military XP to keep your units' HP up and withdraw them from dangerous positions. Even on middling difficulty levels the AI builds vast quantities of units, far more than I ever do, but I've never even come close to losing a city to the AI, let alone a war.
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Apr 11, 2024 20:28
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I took proletariat regime, the communism ideal that reduces your max needs satisfaction by 50% in exchange for removing luxury needs and giving 10% regional efficiency with government complexes. The regional efficiency either doesn't work, or doesn't stack with golden age (from master artists). Halving your maximum growth speed already stings, without the regional efficiency I really wish I didn't take the ideal. Also the clothing buff from pop culture is hilarious, 4 culture and arts exp each. I have 235 art xp per turn. With Great masters, that means I can use a culture power whenever I want, and easily get social fabric wildcards from celebrities if I wanted. And if that's not enough culture, you can also convert production to culture at 3:1. I'm using golden age on cooldown, but I'm not sure what else to do. Cutting edge is nice I guess? Eureka is giving me half a turn's worth of knowledge now, I can only get one more town in a region, I have almost -2000 accumulated chaos...
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Apr 11, 2024 21:20
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The AI is more than happy to throw their armies into yours at fortified positions and take crippling losses in the process, or even better overextend into your land so you can clean them up without fear of counterattack. Note that even a routed army dies instantly to even 1 unit’s attack, so just having one or two high mobility units roaming around the frontlines to clean up routed stacks is useful. Also don’t forget that you can split your armies any way you like, even when attacking, so if you keep having issues with overwhelming combat victories resulting in routs rather than wipes, you can always withhold one unit from the attacking army to clean up the stack afterwards. Or just use forced march if you have the warfare XP income, that’s what it’s there for after all.
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Apr 11, 2024 21:30
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twistedmentat posted:As i said, my issue is balancing my progression with defense, and what has been happening is I will ROCKET through tech until the early modern era (so age of aether, harmony etc) at that point, things start to slow way down because the AI becomes hyper mega aggressive at that point and I'm just constantly at war, and now all my cities need to build units to throw into the endless meat grinder wars are in this game (it seems like the game is explicitly designed to not be able to completely destroy armies unless they're already near death, no matter the tech differance. 2 tanks, 2 mgs and 2 assult rifles vs a mish mash of pikes, knights, crossbows and giant crossbows shouldn't be a hard fought battle when both are in grassland) so i end up falling behind. There has to be some trick to continually improving your tech output without sacrificing your ability to defend, or just avoid wars. Alliances are worthless because the computer will just end then and invade 3 turns later. its knights in particular that seem to be a problem between tech tiers
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Apr 11, 2024 21:31
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So I really should be asleep instead of thinking about this game, and certainly instead of posting about it, but... does food just kind of suck from age 6-ish onward? You probably have a religion, so a sizable region is going to need food, housing, sanitation, faith, education, and luxuries (though that one can't go below 100%). So Food is only one sixth of your total needs. Unless you have a huge city, education is pretty easy to max out, you probably want to max out faith to convert your population for the culture, housing is easy to max out, luxuries tend to be really easy to max out too (might depend on playstyle/national spirits/government)... it's just food and sanitation that are a pain (until recycling centers finally let you deal with sanitation without much trouble). And by age 6 you're most of the way through the game. If you max out 4 needs, you still grow at 50%, and you can still get food from and sanitation from buildings, so you'll be somewhat above that. And even at only 50% growth, you're only missing out on a population every 8 turns... If you're having 10 population work tiles to produce food and sanitation to get them to 200%, and there's 80 turns left in the game, you're only barely breaking even. And that's ignoring you won't actually be at 0 food and sanitation. Aaaand you're paying upfront. Is working non-water food and sanitation improvements even worth it after you get faith, education,. and luxuries? My last game I hit Age of Enlightenment 91 turns before the game ended. Let's say you have a region with a public library/university/whatever else that needs education, you're going to need 100 food to get food to 200%, and 60 sanitation to max that out. Ignoring government/building/whatever sources, that's four trash heaps (all worked, though with 4 extra sanitation) and (without resources) five plowed farms, five mills, and five ovens, which is obivously way too much. But even with olives, you'd need four large olive plantations and four kitchens to get 96 food. And by that point in the game I don't see how you're going to come ahead in pop/hex-turns. Trash heaps do seem to do better, though. (Fishing is different since you're probably going to spam docks/dock upgrades everywhere, so the hex has no opportunity cost. Plus utility boats exist)
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Apr 12, 2024 02:24
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Hey, uh. checked the steam chievos on a whim. The hells Project Atlas? Looks like there's a whole secret victory condition folks are still lookin into
Arcanuse fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Apr 12, 2024 |
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Apr 12, 2024 09:28
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Seconding that war/diplomacy feels weird and I'm not sure if it's a problem with the game or if I'm just not dealing with it correctly. The US declared war on me after I refused to convert to their religion, an immediately started wrecking all my moderately outdated units stationed near the border with stacks almost all of which had leaders and veteran troops. However, they didn't push against my city itself so I had time to scramble build a mass of dragoons and crossbows to start turning the tide. Instead, they started marching deeper into my territory, bypassing cities and taking capital shots in the process, and I was eventually able to surround them and wipe them out (on that note, I didn't notice swathes of my improvements were on fire afterwards - there really ought to be a highlight thing like for improvement upgrades for improvements that need repairs). Then I built some alchemical artillery and went and conquered their cities. As soon as I reached their capital, Japan (presently at war with the US as well) declared war on me and marched...right past the US capital heading instead for my core cities. I had two exhausted armies hanging around. If they'd hit them straight away and taken the former US capital my offensive capacity would've been crippled. Instead I fixed up my troops, surrounded them and wiped them out with far less trouble than I had with the US. Their cities are next. There aren't any issues with adding even more vassals, afaik. I'm not really sure why they are attacking or what their military goals actually are. It did give me a taste of what army quality can really do though, as it took quite a few waves of green troops to push the elite US troops back. The whole endeavour has left me falling behind on technology, with another AI getting the Age of Revolutions ahead of me. I feel like I'm missing something in terms of gaining more knowledge, but that might because I spent a whole Age at war and not thinking about it. The Paper-Printing Press line is too wood intensive to add much extra. Now that things are stable I'll have to re-evaluate what my cities are doing.
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Apr 12, 2024 23:45
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Arcanuse posted:Hey, uh. checked the steam chievos on a whim. The hells Project Atlas? Looks like there's a whole secret victory condition folks are still lookin into It’s been figured out; it’s on Reddit. There’s a whole series of “glitches” you can unlock by performing specific actions and then clicking certain places in the encyclopedia, which unlock the “true” ending.
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Apr 12, 2024 23:54
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Sybot posted:Seconding that war/diplomacy feels weird and I'm not sure if it's a problem with the game or if I'm just not dealing with it correctly. It almost feels like the AI civs have the commands to send them to be at war be like Human player has more units yes? Declare war no Don't declare war And its checked every turn. They will go to war at the drop of a hat, and they never really go after your cities, just destroy all your improvements. Honestly I don't think the AI is very good, its almost impossible to have any diplomacy because you sign a treaty and they break it right away. I literally allied with Greece and 3 turns later they went "thanks but no thanks" and then next turn they're at war with me. I took one of their cities and the had only built the most basic buildings in it, all their effort was put into units.
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Apr 13, 2024 04:45
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I've never seen bad AI in a 4x so that's disappointing
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Apr 13, 2024 07:57
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victrix posted:I've never seen bad AI in a 4x so that's disappointing I know this is a joke, but Milennium seems to be wore than others.
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Apr 13, 2024 16:22
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It seems like the AI has a bonus against the barbarians, which I guess explains why they don't struggle more with them. In the Age of Blood you can recruit barbarian units, and you can also train barbarian warlords if you get the right innovation event. But if you try using them against AI opponents, you notice all their units getting a x2 bonus to attack and defense against barbarian units, making them actively detrimental to use compared to regular units. Especially considering that the barbarian units don't have innate bonuses against any unit type, but still get countered by anti-line units. This is especially funny when you attack enemy Berserkers, who get an additional x3 attack bonus against line units, so they sometimes just one-shot your barbarian warlords, and even simple archer units are very deadly against them. And this is just on adept difficulty. Would've been nice if their bonus was limited to units played by the actual barbarians. There's an entire age where you can build barbarian units and use powers to spawn barbarian camps and units, and the AI just demolishes them.
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Apr 13, 2024 17:19
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The AI (and presumably the player) can apparently just reconvert to their old religion immediately after accepting a demand to convert. Or two turns later at most. At least there's a 10 turn cooldown on that and only 4 turns for diplomacy...? The diplomacy cooldown is really annoying in general. I guess it's to delay going open borders-peace-hostilities-war too quickly, but that could honestly be specific to those things. Also I don't think appreciated scout cavalry enough in my first two games. They're only 10 production. Even with only 20 morale, you can have some garbage stack like 3-4 scouts and 1-2 catapults and just throw it against a walled city. The scouts will hold on long enough for the catapults to bring down the walls, and even if the stack gets overrun on the AI's turn it was pretty cheap. 92 production if you only go with one catapult. Plus you can always use them to block or even surround settlers etc. And less cheesily, having a spare scout follow your army to overrun retreating stacks is nice. And then you can upgrade some to explorers, who produce a bunch of domain exp through expeditions, and also get to 40 combat exp easily through the same, giving you really good leaders.
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Apr 13, 2024 22:46
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Is the general chatter on reddit/Steam discussion correct that map seeds don't actually work correctly? I'd really like to do a Religious/War Priest run but jungles seem to be the rarest terrain and I really only want to do the run if I can guarantee having access to at least some farms and the pyramid temple.
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Apr 13, 2024 22:47
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The ai has never founded a religion for me, and so only demands 90% of my treasury.
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Apr 13, 2024 23:05
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I completely missed that castle towns give culture. That's really good, 15 improvement points for 1 culture and 3 food (4 in jungle). I was using absorb outpost a lot, but I'm starting to think pioneers are to valuable to waste on that.
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Apr 14, 2024 00:08
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Kind of disappointing learn the ai isn’t that great since the big perk of stacking is that the ai can handle it unlike 1upt
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Apr 14, 2024 00:19
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Staltran posted:I completely missed that castle towns give culture. That's really good, 15 improvement points for 1 culture and 3 food (4 in jungle). I was using absorb outpost a lot, but I'm starting to think pioneers are to valuable to waste on that. Maybe I did something wrong but I think you only get the food once from castle towns, at least if they're not on a resource.
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Apr 14, 2024 01:31
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FrancisFukyomama posted:Kind of disappointing learn the ai isn’t that great since the big perk of stacking is that the ai can handle it unlike 1upt It's flawed but it works. i've seen far worse ai in 4x tbh.
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Apr 14, 2024 06:09
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I took God-King, made stonecutters cheaper, and then every time I incorporated a vassal, I found that literally every flat square that wasn't a special resource had a stonecutter on it. Like 9 stonecutters per city. Guess how many quarries they had?
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Apr 14, 2024 22:25
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Super Jay Mann posted:Maybe I did something wrong but I think you only get the food once from castle towns, at least if they're not on a resource. Let's see... I have three outposts linked to one of my regions, with 6, 5, and 3 castle towns. The region gets... 4 wheat? Oh, it only gets wheat from grasslands. Deserts and scrubland give nothing. Jungles should give maize, I think? Not sure, I don't have any jungle tiles in my outposts. But honestly, the culture is the important part. The food is just a nice extra. (Just in case, I meant "1 wheat" when I said 3 food, I was converting it without mentioning it, oops.)
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Apr 14, 2024 22:29
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Staltran posted:Let's see... I have three outposts linked to one of my regions, with 6, 5, and 3 castle towns. The region gets... 4 wheat? Oh, it only gets wheat from grasslands. Deserts and scrubland give nothing. Jungles should give maize, I think? Not sure, I don't have any jungle tiles in my outposts. Oh yeah, you build them for the culture anyway so it's not an issue, just didn't realize that bit from the terrain. Incidentally, one shouldn't forget the 40 engineering XP cost for making a castle in the first place (which is on top of the pioneer cost), which can be a relevant cost if your income in that area is lacking.
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Apr 14, 2024 22:40
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Super Jay Mann posted:Oh yeah, you build them for the culture anyway so it's not an issue, just didn't realize that bit from the terrain. That's true, 40 engineering is decently hefty. It gives 1 culture and warfare xp too, though. If the outpost has a lot of flatland (so monasteries aren't an option), especially grassland, it's still very nice. In other news, Persia rejected my offer of peace. I closed the popup, and the next one was... an offer of peace from Persia. I wish the AI's decisionmaking on diplomacy was less opaque, especially with the cooldown (and I think you don't get your diplo exp back if they refuse your embassy?).
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Apr 14, 2024 23:31
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skeleton warrior posted:I took God-King, made stonecutters cheaper, and then every time I incorporated a vassal, I found that literally every flat square that wasn't a special resource had a stonecutter on it. Like 9 stonecutters per city. Guess how many quarries they had? So long as you work them you still get the engineering xp and money, even if you have no input goods to turn into output, which makes no sense but that's how the game works right now. Not the best use of workforce unless you're really desperate for engineering XP, which I doubt your vassals were, so... yeah, not great. AG3 fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 00:33
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| # ? May 7, 2024 00:16 |
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skeleton warrior posted:I took God-King, made stonecutters cheaper, and then every time I incorporated a vassal, I found that literally every flat square that wasn't a special resource had a stonecutter on it. Like 9 stonecutters per city. Guess how many quarries they had? They were all way too busy covering up the electric car, that's where the engineering xp comes from
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Apr 15, 2024 06:39
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