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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's not until Rebuild that humanity is actually wiped out! Only most of them. The rest get to live out Battlestar Galactica with regular ships and one kicking rad airship, so it's pretty much an even trade in the end.
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Sep 24, 2013 06:27
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:See this guy gets it. They're oppositional but not exclusive. EoE is about falling apart. The imagery it gives you are breakdowns, decay, death, blood, a forcible return to base components, a collapse of illusions, of self, of hope. EoTV is also about falling apart, but it is about the structures that hurt and separate us falling apart. Hence, the lonely sound stage shattering into CONGRATULATIONS. EoE and EoTV are fundamentally thematically different and reach different answers to the same question. The bits they share (Shinji facing his demons, the alternate reality part) express different concepts and come to different conclusions. Even the way they play out are completely at odds: EoTV is a Brectian play between the Greek Chorus/the viewer and the characters/GAINAX that ends with an acceptance of other people and life affirmation. EoE is an expressionist cry of Freudian sexual horror that ends with release, desolation and isolation. Even Yui/Rei's big "everyone can come back if they want to" requires a splitting of the breast, if it works like it did with Shinji. It's severance, ending, finality. A death of the utopic spirit because life is pain, unity is misery and people are assholes. It's what happens when the vox populi tell a deeply depressed man to take his absolution and shove it up his rear end. Short and sweet version: EoE having an ultimately upbeat message is not true. It's necessary to believe for the catharsis of the sane, but it's a lie. EoTV is legit upbeat, but it doesn't have the same grittiness so it's not as cool. MadRhetoric fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Sep 24, 2013 |
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Sep 24, 2013 07:10
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Neowyrm posted:Wow, an EVA thread! Just to check, did you notice the teeth? (Should I spoiler this? It doesn't reveal any information) 
Ak Gara fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Sep 24, 2013 |
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Sep 24, 2013 11:55
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Well for those of us who were hoping Unit 2+8 wasn't going to happen... http://news.mynavi.jp/news/2013/09/20/191/index.html
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Sep 24, 2013 13:06
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Ak Gara posted:Just to check, did you notice the teeth? (Should I spoiler this? It doesn't reveal any information) Not really since most of the background shots look like that; Just endless expanses of red land, red crosses, and some clouds. The teeth though... wow that's creepy. I didn't notice that at all.
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Sep 24, 2013 14:25
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Ak Gara posted:Just to check, did you notice the teeth? (Should I spoiler this? It doesn't reveal any information) Vagina Dentata.
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Sep 24, 2013 14:25
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Zeruel posted:Well for those of us who were hoping Unit 2+8 wasn't going to happen... Unit 10 looks sick as hell, but how does it look under all the plating? 
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Sep 24, 2013 15:46
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Wade Wilson posted:Vagina Dentata. What a wonderful phrase!
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Sep 24, 2013 15:47
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Would be utterly unsurprised if Unit 10 never appears in the next film at all. The epilogue and the merchandise are all that will ever exist of it.
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Sep 24, 2013 16:48
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Wow I didn't see those teeth before... that's terrifying 
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Sep 24, 2013 16:53
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SHISHKABOB posted:Wow I didn't see those teeth before... that's terrifying You should see the eye that NERV HQ is sticking out of.
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Sep 24, 2013 17:14
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SHISHKABOB posted:Wow I didn't see those teeth before... that's terrifying
Context: Second impact tipped the scales at around 7.5 x 1025 J. Moving the Moon is a big deal.
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Sep 24, 2013 19:04
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GulMadred posted:maths Did you just do all of that yourself? That's amazing. Also, you didn't mention the red grid on the moon, which is a thematic element fairly commonplace in the franchise i.e. the Black Moon in EoE, and the corpse of Lilith in 3.0
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Sep 24, 2013 19:46
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MadRhetoric posted:Even Yui/Rei's big "everyone can come back if they want to" requires a splitting of the breast, if it works like it did with Shinji. It's severance, ending, finality. A death of the utopic spirit because life is pain, unity is misery and people are assholes. It's what happens when the vox populi tell a deeply depressed man to take his absolution and shove it up his rear end. I disagree. The scene you describe as "the splitting of the breast" is actually the exact opposite; Shinji isn't refusing to accept the good (kind, protective, saved the world for his sake) aspects of his mother with the bad ones (is a giant monster, arguably abandoned him to save herself) -- that scene is where he reconciles them. Saying that unity is misery is specifically contradicted by the scene where he's merged with Rei; it isn't misery, it's a vague, uncertain void. Shinji rejects Instrumentality because he recognizes it as a non-answer, not because it hurts too much. (Funnily enough this is something I argued myself, like, two threads ago, but my old Eva opinions were stupid.) Also just on practical plot grounds, everything about EoE is shot through with half-good, half-bad reconciliations. The apocalypse happens, but stops short; SEELE is satisfied and are some of the only people to pass into the tangy aether calmly, implying they won't come back, but everyone else can -- the world is rid of them. The last of the Angels is dead, even though he was Shiniji's only friend. Gendo is rejected by Rei but embraced and forgiven by Yui, the woman he actually cared about in the first place. The only strong basis for a negative reading of EoE is One More Final, which I admit is a really strong one, but I've already made the best argument for a mixed-positive reading of it I possibly could at the beginning of the thread and I'm not gonna repeat myself. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 24, 2013 23:31
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There's a good reason for a negative reading from a purely practical standpoint: the physical earth itself is hosed. The natmosphere is so screwed up that there's stars showing in the daytime, the world is flooded with people-juice, and what little land remains is barren and covered in ruins. Who knows how Shinji is feeding himself, or if he has shelter, or how long either of those will last if he has them. Asuka arriving makes two mouths to feed and clothe and if they repopulate the earth (the "optimistic reading") the problem worsens. They are hosed; it's way too late to go back on Instrumentality.
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Sep 24, 2013 23:46
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Yeah, but by EoE the alternative was "the total extinction of humanity and all Lilith-based life down to bacteria" or "all of humanity's combined consciousness under the yoke of the Illuminati" so it's kind of the least bad outcome.
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Sep 24, 2013 23:48
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The only strong basis for a negative reading of EoE is One More Final, which I admit is a really strong one, but I've already made the best argument for a mixed-positive reading of it I possibly could at the beginning of the thread and I'm not gonna repeat myself. My interpretation of it is basically exactly what you've just said: it's meant to represent a "mixed" world where, yes, there is pain and suffering (the destroyed landscape and its concomitant loneliness), but there is also the hope of coming closer to someone (the authentic gesture of Asuka at the very end) and of finding meaning in that. A Pinball Wizard posted:They are hosed; it's way too late to go back on Instrumentality. I don't think the ending is really meant to be taken literally - think about how contrived it is to just have Asuka and Shinji there because of some sort of "internal" physics of the process of Instrumentality. I see it as, like a lot of the imagery present in Evangelion, symbolic: the bleak, dessicated, hopeless landscape of the universe, but with the existentialist twist of someone we can truly care for being present which makes it worthwhile to nevertheless live. It is, in essence, a summation of the major theme of the work.
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Sep 25, 2013 00:55
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Zeruel posted:Well for those of us who were hoping Unit 2+8 wasn't going to happen... It's a strong, independent 60 meter tall Hakkaider that don't need no Shinji.  The more gonzo and whacked-out Rebuild gets, the more I love it. Mari was crossing the Rubicon, the destruction of old Eva is truly at hand. Tux: The mixed-positive reading of EoE relies on the words of an unreliable woman who wanted to be a giant robot and a kid who's problem is isolationism solving his problems by isolating himself. It's also completely tonally blind to 85 percent of the movie and relies on the TV series to give it metatextual solidity. The only "solid" reading is the one provided by the co-author (in that it's ultimately meaningless, go fanwank something) and given Death of the Author that reading can't be used as a deciding factor. e: The least bad choice is still bad, Tux. There is no real such thing as a lesser evil. MadRhetoric fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 01:40
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MadRhetoric posted:... relies on the TV series to give it metatextual solidity. Well, yes, absolutely. I don't deny that, because I view the entire run -- 25+26+EoE included -- as a single entity, and think that any reading of Evangelion has to encompass both. I don't recognize a break in the work until Rebuild, and even Rebuild is more like an old testament / new testament divide. Also, if Shinji wanted to isolate himself completely, he would have gone through with strangling Asuka. He'd rather she live and hate him, which is the resolution of that particular psychological hangup even if he's developed a host of others by then. MadRhetoric posted:e: The least bad choice is still bad, Tux. There is no real such thing as a lesser evil. That's a philosophical difference between you and me which is probably outside the context of this thread. v  vAlso, whether it's literally/sequentially the case or not, Rebuild might yet be the fulfillment of the promise I see in EoE. If it ends on a happy or even just triumphant note I'll take it as such. It worked for Utena. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 01:46
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I mean, the entire point of Rebuild 3.33 is that there is still hope even after the end of the world, and that denying that hope and clinging to the past is a childish act at best, and a monstrous one at worst. The final declaration of this sentiment even comes from Asuka herself.
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Sep 25, 2013 01:58
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Well, yes, absolutely. I don't deny that, because I view the entire run -- 25+26+EoE included -- as a single entity, and think that any reading of Evangelion has to encompass both. I don't recognize a break in the work until Rebuild, and even Rebuild is more like an old testament / new testament divide. I don't disagree with you on that aspect, but it is a lot easier to see a negative reading of EoE with or without EoTV than it is to garner a separate mixed-positive reading of EoE alone or even a negative reading of EoTV tainted by a reading of EoE. Even if you believe it's ultimately hopeful-ish, there is a lot of pain in EoE. The best you can sorta hope for is Shinji and Asuka coming out of the ordeal with the belief that "maybe everything isn't hopeless bullshit". That's only positive when you're depressed enough to think that everything is hopeless bullshit. So it's an intratextual positive (assuming Shinji not breaking Asuka's neck was an act of compassion), but it's the blackest kind of positive. You've got an interesting way of looking at that scene; the way I see it is both of them are too broken/emotionally raw to act. Asuka just sort of dead-fish hands Shinji and Shinji doesn't strangle Asuka with the same verve he did in the Instrumentality sequence. I, for one, also welcome our new orange-flavored SEELE overlords. quote:That's a philosophical difference between you and me which is probably outside the context of this thread. v Eh, that's a copout. Your reading is perfectly valid, I want to see if you can convince me of it. Especially since I was right about Post-Madokami Homura wanting to put a gun to head in MadoMagi  and I sperg harder about Eva than I do Madoka.quote:Also, if Rebuild is a literal sequel to EoE then there's still a chance for triumph and setting all things right anyways. And if it isn't, we'll always have
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Sep 25, 2013 01:59
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MadRhetoric posted:I don't disagree with you on that aspect, but it is a lot easier to see a negative reading of EoE with or without EoTV than it is to garner a separate mixed-positive reading of EoE alone or even a negative reading of EoTV tainted by a reading of EoE. Even if you believe it's ultimately hopeful-ish, there is a lot of pain in EoE. The best you can sorta hope for is Shinji and Asuka coming out of the ordeal with the belief that "maybe everything isn't hopeless bullshit". That's only positive when you're depressed enough to think that everything is hopeless bullshit. So it's an intratextual positive (assuming Shinji not breaking Asuka's neck was an act of compassion), but it's the blackest kind of positive. Oh, absolutely. I'm a total depressive in real life, so I gain a great deal of satisfaction from simply affirming that things aren't completely pitch-black. MadRhetoric posted:You've got an interesting way of looking at that scene; the way I see it is both of them are too broken/emotionally raw to act. Asuka just sort of dead-fish hands Shinji and Shinji doesn't strangle Asuka with the same verve he did in the Instrumentality sequence. Shinji took the time to build graves to the people he lost. He's trying, in some sense, to process what's happened -- and he's had at least some time to come to terms with it. (It also kind of implies that he's internalized his mother's teaching about the importance of memory, which isn't necessarily a good thing but definitely lays the thematic ground for Rebuild.) The mere fact that Asuka showed up again shatters his isolation -- he may even have mourned her, and now suddenly she's HERE, and alive, and a huge emotional presence just by existing. I take that scene as sort of the ultimate expression of the whole "hedgehog's dilemma" thing in that yeah, Shinji has been pushed so far into isolation that just acknowledging the existence of another human being provokes mute violence in response... But the pendulum swings back. He stops. She speaks to him: even if it's to express disgust, she needs him to know she's disgusted. The idea of Shinji and Asuka as Adam and Eve is ridiculous but the first basics of human communication and society have been re-established. Then this is echoed in Rebuild where a mature, self-confident Asuka takes catatonic Shinji to task and drags him back towards the world of the living. Bro Asuka is the best Asuka. MadRhetoric posted:I, for one, also welcome our new orange-flavored SEELE overlords. SEELE are the ultimate monsters behind everything in Evangelion. It's their sword of Damocles hanging over Yui's head that lead to her leaving Gendo and Shinji behind; they're the ones who found the Dead Sea Scrolls and decided to go down that path in the first place. The fact that they're rich old men who already rule the world and want MORE is reason enough to despise them by itself, frankly. In Rebuild, when they change Gendo's character design to communicate that he's even more cruel and soulless than he already was, they give him Keel Lorenz's crown, because the head of SEELE is the one person worse than Gendo. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 02:22
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Oh, absolutely. I'm a total depressive in real life, so I gain a great deal of satisfaction from simply affirming that things aren't completely pitch-black. They've got me popping Prozac like PEZ now, so maybe I should take satisfaction in that. Then again, it could be better and (for given definitions of better) it was in EoTV. Congratulations is a hell of a lot more life-affirming than consigning the world to death only to go take-backsies. Maybe if Shinji had an It's A Wonderful Life moment or Yui was more defined than the ideal of a madman, an unrequited lover and severe emotional trauma. quote:~snip~ That's a good way to put it. It returns both of them to their most basic states, but defines who they are most clearly. It might not be the most healthy way of definition, but it's better than being consumed by the death urge. And Arrsuka at the end of 3.33 is a direct parallel to Misato in EoE; literally dragging a catatonic Shinji after he's irrevocably defiled his confidant/lover. quote:SEELE are the ultimate monsters behind everything in Evangelion. It's their sword of Damocles hanging over Yui's head that lead to her leaving Gendo and Shinji behind; they're the ones who found the Dead Sea Scrolls and decided to go down that path in the first place. The fact that they're rich old men who already rule the world and want MORE is reason enough to despise them by itself, frankly. And here's where we get a little fanwanky, but let's roll with it. Much as the Evas vs. the Angels is a clash of monster against monster, the machinations of SEELE and Gendo are those of monsters against monsters. Until Anno gets super sadbrained halfway through the series, SEELE is basically aiming for the Singularity alongside being a death cult. Gendo just wants his wife back to tell him it's okay and he's not a fuckup like his kid. Regardless of whether it's from the rich or the desperate, humanity gets hosed all the same. Matter of perspective. You could also read in Rebuild that since SEELE meetings were greenscreened and the monoliths shut down by Gendo and Fuyutsuki's hand, that their power or malevolence was entirely manufactured. Gendo holds all the cards and has always held all the cards; SEELE siccing the JSDF on NERV was just a waste of human lives when his child and his wife and his clone of his wife are the only pieces on the board that matter. Gendo rocking the toaster-face combines and confirms that he is the ur-antagonist in a story about Shinji's personal growth. Keel and SEELE existed as a sleight of hand that is no longer necessary now that everybody knows Eva so well.
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Sep 25, 2013 03:00
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MadRhetoric posted:They've got me popping Prozac like PEZ now, so maybe I should take satisfaction in that. Then again, it could be better and (for given definitions of better) it was in EoTV. Congratulations is a hell of a lot more life-affirming than consigning the world to death only to go take-backsies. Maybe if Shinji had an It's A Wonderful Life moment or Yui was more defined than the ideal of a madman, an unrequited lover and severe emotional trauma. I'm going less for A Wonderful Life, and more for The Myth of Sisyphus with every instance of "Sisyphus" crossed out and replaced with "Shinji." MadRhetoric posted:That's a good way to put it. It returns both of them to their most basic states, but defines who they are most clearly. It might not be the most healthy way of definition, but it's better than being consumed by the death urge. And Arrsuka at the end of 3.33 is a direct parallel to Misato in EoE; literally dragging a catatonic Shinji after he's irrevocably defiled his confidant/lover. You're not wrong, but like I've said before, Misato kissing Shinji and shoving him into the robot in EoE is an act of desperation and betrayal; she basically throws away the temporary psychological progress she's helped him make in order to motivate him. Unless Rebuild 4.44 makes Asuka wrong about everything she said to him, it's just the opposite; she begins to reconstruct Shinji, because now the survival of the world is not dependent on his martyrdom, but on his acceptance. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 03:04
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm going less for A Wonderful Life, and more for The Myth of Sisyphus with every instance of "Sisyphus" crossed out and replaced with "Shinji." Pushing Asuka up a hill, only for her to call him a stupid pervy lech, kick him in the face, and ride him back down the hill like a snowboard for all eternity.
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Sep 25, 2013 03:05
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MadRhetoric posted:Pushing Asuka up a hill, only for her to call him a stupid pervy lech, kick him in the face, and ride him back down the hill like a snowboard for all eternity. In light of my last edit, I'm not sure I correctly identified who does the pushing.
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Sep 25, 2013 03:08
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MadRhetoric posted:Maybe if Shinji had an It's A Wonderful Life moment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yetaDgjpSS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93V9Xv-m-XY It seems to contextualize the ending more, as I feel like it explains more as to why Shinji goes from choking Asuka/everyone should die to reject instrumentality/stop choking Asuka. The scene shows that Asuka and Misato would have crappy lives regardless of Shinji, so all the Hedgehog Dilemma stuff really isn't his fault. After this revelation would make sense as to why he would suddenly stop hating the world and everyone around him. Basically, Shinji having a It's A Wonderful Life moment .
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Sep 25, 2013 03:14
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MadRhetoric posted:You could also read in Rebuild that since SEELE meetings were greenscreened and the monoliths shut down by Gendo and Fuyutsuki's hand, that their power or malevolence was entirely manufactured. Gendo holds all the cards and has always held all the cards; SEELE siccing the JSDF on NERV was just a waste of human lives when his child and his wife and his clone of his wife are the only pieces on the board that matter. Gendo rocking the toaster-face combines and confirms that he is the ur-antagonist in a story about Shinji's personal growth. Keel and SEELE existed as a sleight of hand that is no longer necessary now that everybody knows Eva so well. Sounds plausible, Rebuild in general is a more narrowly Shinji-focused story than the original series. The biggest objection is that SEELE are the ones who drove Yui into hiding out in Unit-01 in the first place, but all the signs in Rebuild suggest that Yui really is dead or at least gone and that all Gendo is holding onto is a decaying memory, which also throws the original events into question. EDIT: As long as we're just talking about Rebuild. If you meant in the sense of retroactively making them an illusionary threat in the original series... Eh. There are some early episodes that paint them as out-of-touch and being manipulated, but that could just be the outer circle being manipulated by Lorenz and the other five; by the end of the series they're aware that Gendo is trying to play them and looking for countermeasures. Plus in the end Instrumentality plays out a lot closer to their version than Gendo's. (Or at least, they think it does based on each of their reactions.) Also, if Gendo was using them purely as a manufactured threat in Rebuild, then he must be lying to Fuyutsuki, since he's still anxious about the possibility that they might get their way. jvempire posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yetaDgjpSS4 These are awesome, thanks for sharing. Although, is that Rei in the second one complaining about "depressed, brooding men?" or am I getting them confused? Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 03:14
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jvempire posted:Speaking of which... this is old news to eva veterans, but I'd just like to post for the new comers (like me) that there was an entire live action scene cut from EoE. It follows Asuka and Misato living a mundane life in a world without Shinji. I'm not sure if that's more selfless (What right do I have in ceasing to exist when I'm not the direct cause of everything wrong with everything) or selfish (How dare they move on and be normal, if slightly melancholic, people! My suffering is special), so I'm just going to think Shinji was mad Touji did what he couldn't. On a lighter note, the super awkward moment between live action Asuka and Misato at the start of part 2 is an excellent snapshot of the duality between the Japanese inner and outer self. e: and jaded, worldly Rei is the best Rei. W EDIT: I speak of SEELE metatextually; in Rebuild they're still the opposing force that needs to be overcome, but in the aforementioned green screen sequence, the impetus on ending the world is placed squarely on Gendo's shoulders. In EoE, it goes SEELE's way (as far as we can tell) inasmuch as Keel is happy to die and Gendo gets eaten. The whole thing is kind of a clusterfuck given Giant Naked Rei's involvement. MadRhetoric fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 04:23
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jvempire posted:Speaking of which... this is old news to eva veterans, but I'd just like to post for the new comers (like me) that there was an entire live action scene cut from EoE. It follows Asuka and Misato living a mundane life in a world without Shinji. Wow, this is something else. I claim to like Evangelion so much but I didn't even know this existed. Amazing stuff
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Sep 25, 2013 05:01
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Since it had been a while since I watched the series, I went back and gave the last couple of episodes a skim. Something occurred to me while watching the episode with flashbacks to pre-Second Impact Japan. Young Gendo looks so much like a focused and aggressive Shinji that it's unsettling. It makes me think to Rebuild 3.33, in which his fuller facial hair and large visor have removed any possibility of seeing the strong physical resemblance the two have. I think I'm going to have to do a full watch through of the T.V. series for the first time in like six or seven years. I think I've been missing out on some of the more subtle differences between the T.V. series and Rebuild.
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Sep 25, 2013 05:11
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Yeah, it's obvious in hindsight with the series, and when Gendo gets his soliloquy in EoE, he reveals himself to be a focused, aggressive, Type A Shinji. It's a comparison they beat you over the head with in Rebuild.
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Sep 25, 2013 06:16
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Ak Gara posted:Just to check, did you notice the teeth? (Should I spoiler this? It doesn't reveal any information) This image really encapsules the whole movie. Beautifully rendered nonsense.
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Sep 25, 2013 14:44
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Zeruel posted:Well for those of us who were hoping Unit 2+8 wasn't going to happen... As if anything in the trailer for 3.0 actually happened in the movie.
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Sep 26, 2013 06:04
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I still don't understand Evangelion - I don't understand the plot and I don't understand the themes - but I will never stop reading this thread.
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Sep 29, 2013 22:24
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Not understanding what's going on nor being able to fully comprehend any of it is part of Evangelion, so you've got that part covered.
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Sep 30, 2013 00:20
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Popcorn posted:I still don't understand Evangelion - I don't understand the plot and I don't understand the themes - but I will never stop reading this thread. In my experience with Eva, you are (not) one of 4 people: >You can actually relate to Shinji/other characters somewhat >You like the imagery and symbolism, which in turn leads to discussion that usually fits in over at evageeks.org >You dont really 'get' Eva, but you still find it enjoyable to discuss the messages/symbolism/etc >Or you just don't get why people like an anime with a whiny protagonist who doesnt have it that bad and 'shinji get in the robot!!!'
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Sep 30, 2013 01:47
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Zeruel posted:In my experience with Eva, you are (not) one of 4 people: I'm a combination of the first three, but it always ends up, quite early on, with me going "no, actually all this madness is beyond me" and doing something else for a bit. Love it though. Here's a crap fan cover of Komm Susser Tod that I like because it has a terribly sad girl playing tambourine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHVkwZL45L4
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Sep 30, 2013 02:28
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I was reminded of Evangelion somehow and rushed to check if a HQ version of 3.33 had been subbed in a giddy haze. I watched it over the weekend. It's amazing how effective a work that has both insane spectacle and respect for the human condition can be. Goddamn Anno, I don't care if your message is modulated by a screamo-filter, I care about what your saying!
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Oct 3, 2013 22:19
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Zeruel posted:In my experience with Eva, you are (not) one of 4 people: Some of us just want to watch robots fight weird monsters and maybe hope shinji will one day find peace.
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Oct 4, 2013 13:56
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