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trucutru posted:Even if what you are saying is true, there are still lots of flaws in the flick. Mainly the ham-handed way they had Misato&Co behave towards Shinji just to keep the viewer off-balance. That was just lovely characterization no matter what. It's not ham-handed though. Misato especially is conflicted about how to treat and think of Shinji, and the movie establishes this in a very economical manner. There's also a lot of subtly implied stuff (like the changed relationship between Asuka and Misato and the unspecified events they snipe at each other about -- which both characterize Misato as a leader and show that Asuka has outwardly mellowed while remaining deeply bitter.) Most of my complaints with it are thematic rather than execution-related, because the execution is drat near flawless. And really the thematic stuff can wait until 4.0 is out to contextualize it.
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Nov 12, 2013 20:16
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trucutru posted:Well, gently caress that! Shinji goes back to be, well, classic-Shinji and everybody else but Kaworu may as well be a cardboard cutout. He didn't go back to being classic Shinji, and if you think he did you weren't paying attention. Intel&Sebastian posted:Going all To be completely fair to him, he got tricked into giving it a second try. He thought he was going to unfuck things, not make them even worse, but Gendo and Fuyutsuki pulled a fast one on him.
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Nov 12, 2013 20:21
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trucutru posted:
Well, how do you tell someone he destroyed the world?
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Nov 12, 2013 20:39
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SALT CURES HAM posted:To be completely fair to him, he got tricked into giving it a second try. He thought he was going to unfuck things, not make them even worse, but Gendo and Fuyutsuki pulled a fast one on him. He was pretty complicit in tricking himself, to the point where he has to willfully disregard Kaworu. It's funny thinking about the crew of the Wunder, specifically Toji's little sister. When Shinji is taken, it seems as if she's not hostile, just genuinely terrified of what he's capable of doing. People fearing him is really far outside of Shinji's litany of what negative opinions others hold for him, and yet he doesn't really seem to pick up on it. It's a shame it didn't lead to some introspection of his role in 3rd and 4th Impact.
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Nov 12, 2013 20:51
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genericnick posted:Well, how do you tell someone he destroyed the world? "Sorry Shinji, you may not believe this but 14 years have passed since that day. We have a lot of things to talk about but right now is not the time, we're being attacked. Please trust me and wait a bit" You know, like you talk to a 14 years-old child? Specially one that you know is prone to depression, impulsive actions and, at the same time, extremely dangerous/useful. Maybe just think about what to tell him in advance after his carefully orchestrated rescue mission? Intel&Sebastian posted:Going all My point is that this was obviously done to keep the viewer guessing, for the whole  effect. This can work if done properly but in here pretty much everything that happens goes back to them being assholes, when they are supposed to be professionals. That is bad characterization.Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's not ham-handed though. Misato especially is conflicted about how to treat and think of Shinji, and the movie establishes this in a very economical manner. She had fourteen years to think about how to treat and think about the extremely important person she just rescued. Even if she is still conflicted then she should behave like someone with half a brain and don't show it in pretty much the worst possible way. Seriously, that part sucked and is what propels the whole movie forward. SALT CURES HAM posted:He didn't go back to being classic Shinji, and if you think he did you weren't paying attention. Yeah, you're right. Shinji's characterization is fine.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:13
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The bigger problem with 3.0 is that there just isn't any real plot besides the scenes with Kaworu; everything else are just shallow action setpieces. My takeaway from the movie wasn't that everyone was being dumb, but rather that nothing actually happened in the movie at all. It was really just a padded out, pretty version of episode 24 with some Star Wars prequel trilogy special effect battles thrown in.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:19
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Just gonna repeat my point from the previous page:Srice posted:I didn't have a problem with their attitude towards Shinji since being reminded of how badly he hosed up every single day for about 14 years straight can really have quite the effect on you. Understandable that they'd be pissed off. And considering Shinji's actions later in the film, it turns out they were right to be. Sure, Shinji is 14. But he made one hell of a mistake that's nigh-impossible to look past and he didn't even have to live with the consequences until they found him.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:22
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trucutru posted:She had fourteen years to think about how to treat and think about the extremely important person she just rescued. Even if she is still conflicted then she should behave like someone with half a brain and don't show it in pretty much the worst possible way. Seriously, that part sucked and is what propels the whole movie forward. She had fourteen years of being on the run, in the middle of the apocalypse, with a genocidal madman trying to kill her and everyone she knows, very probably suffered the death of the man she was in love with (and incredibly conflicted about being in love with), while being responsible for the lives of the entire crew. This is on top of what a psychological wreck Misato already was in the original series, where she was a dysfunctional alcoholic whose sole arena of competence was killing Angels. There's nothing wrong with that part of the movie. Your expectations suck. trucutru posted:My point is that this was obviously done to keep the viewer guessing, for the whole NERV is not professionals. NERV is a quasi-religious organization tasked with protecting the world because nobody else could, staffed with zealots, eccentrics, people with an axe to grind against God, and spies. (Also teenagers having nervous breakdowns.) This feels like the Prometheus thread all over again. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Nov 12, 2013 |
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Nov 12, 2013 21:24
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I really don't know why they bothered to keep him alive, honestly.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:27
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Eva 3.0 is what happens when you let your art and animation directors go hog wild and ignore basic storytelling and script writing. You can argue about vague references and hidden meaning until you're blue in the face, bit the movie just does not work on its own merits. Unless the goal of the movie is to make people mad the first time they see it. Then it works perfectly.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:28
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Nate RFB posted:I really don't know why they bothered to keep him alive, honestly. Because Misato is in charge, and she overrode them. Ritsuko is 100% gung-ho, all aboard the "kill Shinji" train.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:30
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Nate RFB posted:I really don't know why they bothered to keep him alive, honestly. Only reasonable explanation I can think of is that Misato didn't want to straight up kill a 14 year old boy in cold blood. If only that collar didn't have a lovely range on it....
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Nov 12, 2013 21:30
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notZaar posted:Eva 3.0 is what happens when you let your art and animation directors go hog wild and ignore basic storytelling and script writing. You can argue about vague references and hidden meaning until you're blue in the face, bit the movie just does not work on its own merits. Unless the goal of the movie is to make people mad the first time they see it. Then it works perfectly. The story makes perfect sense, though? The only notable thing that's missing is Gendo and Fuyutsuki's motivations, which while important aren't really necessary for the personal story of Shinji and Kaworu. Seriously, what are you confused about? What "doesn't work?"
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Nov 12, 2013 21:34
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Because Misato is in charge, and she overrode them. Ritsuko is 100% gung-ho, all aboard the "kill Shinji" train.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:36
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:She had fourteen years of being on the run, in the middle of the apocalypse, with a genocidal madman trying to kill her and everyone she knows, very probably suffered the death of the man she was in love with (and incredibly conflicted about being in love with), while being responsible for the lives of an entire crew. This is on top of what a psychological wreck Misato already was in the original series, where she was a dysfunctional alcoholic whose sole arena of competence was killing Angels. I am talking about Wille(?) who are professionals. How do I know that? well they have managed to stay alive against against all odds (and a genocidal mad mam) for 14 years. What part of me expecting them being able to properly deal with the guy you planned to rescue is having unrealistic expectations? Seriously, tell me what is so hard about that. And the Prometheus thread was indeed lovely as hell. Tuxedo Catfish posted:The story makes perfect sense, though? The only notable thing that's missing is Gendo and Fuyutsuki's motivations, which while important aren't really necessary for the personal story of Shinji and Kaworu. Yeah, it makes sense. In an EVA kind of way, which is fine. Making sense doesn't make it good thou, that's kinda the most basic thing you should get.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:38
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Nate RFB posted:Just sure seems to be like a whole lot of drama and risk to invite into your paramilitary organization tasked with saving what's left of the world. Absolutely! The prudent thing to do would be to kill him. You wouldn't even have to explain anything to him, and the threat he poses to the human race would be gone. Ikari Shinji is the enemy of mankind and whatever your sympathies towards him, he still has to go. Wait, this sounds kind of familiar. trucutru posted:And the Prometheus thread was indeed lovely as hell. Pretty great movie, though.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:39
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Plenty of things still don't make sense to me, like why Kaworu puts that bomb on his neck, or who this new Rei is, or where that cassette tape came from, or what that giant white Rei head is. Mostly it seems like the movie just assumes that symbolism is enough justification for nonsensical actions or motivations. A lot of imagery just seems to be thrown in for the sake of looking cool, like those teeth embedded in the earth or that giant spinning blood streaked sphere.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:40
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Pretty great movie, though. I wouldn't call it great but it was pretty good. Sorry to hound you but: "trucutru" posted:
notZaar posted:Plenty of things still don't make sense to me, like why Kaworu puts that bomb on his neck, or who this new Rei is, or where that cassette tape came from, or what that giant white Rei head is. Mostly it seems like the movie just assumes that symbolism is enough justification for nonsensical actions or motivations. A lot of imagery just seems to be thrown in for the sake of looking cool, like those teeth embedded in the earth or that giant spinning blood streaked sphere. Kaworu puts the bomb on his neck because he cares about Shinji and knows that he may need to kill himself to prevent some even bigger poo poo to happen. The new Rei is a clone. The cassette tape was recovered from when Shinji saved the other Rei (whereabouts unknown), the giant white Rei and the religious imagery is part of the EVA experience and is to be expected. And indeed lots of the imagery is thrown in just to be cool, as usual. Nothing wrong with that.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:51
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trucutru posted:Yeah, it makes sense. In an EVA kind of way, which is fine. Making sense doesn't make it good thou, that's kinda the most basic thing you should get. It makes sense, it's aesthetically pleasing, it's got pathos, drama, spectacle. I'm not sure I like what it says about guilt and sin and individual responsibility, but I've already copped to that. So yeah, it's a good movie. notZaar posted:Plenty of things still don't make sense to me, like why Kaworu puts that bomb on his neck, or who this new Rei is, or where that cassette tape came from, or what that giant white Rei head is. Mostly it seems like the movie just assumes that symbolism is enough justification for nonsensical actions or motivations. A lot of imagery just seems to be thrown in for the sake of looking cool, like those teeth embedded in the earth or that giant spinning blood streaked sphere. Kaworu puts the bomb on his own neck to put Shinji at ease. I don't even mean this in a fancy meta-plot "he's symbolically assuming Shinji's guilt" sense (although it is also that), but rather in the in-plot sense: he wants Shinji to know that he's freeing him of responsibility, trying to lessen the burden. Kaworu cares more about Shinji than he does about self-preservation, which is totally in keeping with his character. There might be practical reasons as well, we don't know, and don't really need to. The new Rei is Rei. If you want to get tediously literal she's another clone, like every previous Rei, but here I am going to indulge in the whole symbolic meaning thing: Rei's role in 3.33 is to show how Shinji would rather recklessly try to turn back time than recognize that the world is still there and he has to live in it. Rei is confusing and alien and doesn't remember him, but rather than taking this in stride he makes only a trivial effort to rebuild their relationship and then gives up. "She liked books," he thinks, and makes a little book-shrine, and when she doesn't immediately fall into his arms he starts to resent her. It's a betrayal of what he ostensibly felt at the end of 2.0 and personally I find it a more compelling reason to dislike Shinji than anything else he's done. The SDAT is easy: watch 2.22 again, closely. Shinji throws it away, Rei picks it out of the garbage, she has it with her during Third Impact, and when Shinji souldives into Rei-Zeruel the cassette player comes up with her. Whatever else it is, it's also a literal physical object whose trajectory can be traced through every movie without difficulty. The giant white Rei head and Mount Toothy Vagina are scars of the apocalypse. Do they really need to be anything else?
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Nov 12, 2013 21:53
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Some of that is probably straight up 4.0 material rather than being confusing or overly symbolic; Kaworu has to die by losing his head because that's what happens in episode 24, and I don't think there's honestly much else to it. But that said Evangelion has always loved shoving stuff in there because it looked or sounded cool regardless of actual relevance; it was just a lot more subtle or interesting about it in the past. Or wasn't drowned out by a deluge of boring/flashy action sequences.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:53
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trucutru posted:"Sorry Shinji, you may not believe this but 14 years have passed since that day. We have a lot of things to talk about but right now is not the time, we're being attacked. Please trust me and wait a bit" So basically your grievance with 3.0 is that the characters did not disregard their personal biases immediately upon the movie starting to robotically act out advice from a psych 101 handbook, directly acting against all characterization they have received in past films and series in the process. I imagine you get incredibly mad when watching zombie movies, as well.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:58
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trucutru posted:Sorry to hound you but: It's cool, I actually enjoy defending this series. Sorry if I'm coming off kind of aggressive about it.  Anyways, a couple of things: calling it a rescue mission is dubious. Their priority was retrieving Unit-01 to act as the core of the Wunder. I don't recall off the top of my head if they even expected Shinji to be alive, let alone perfectly preserved inside. (Although interestingly, Asuka never seems to have doubted it.) Second, they retrieve him in the middle of combat. The ship's in chaos, they're interrupted before they can go into any depth, and keep in mind that Shinji's mere presence in the same place as Unit-01 is terrifying and dangerous. You can't think of this as, I dunno, "elite navy SEAL team retrieves a hostage" -- it's a bunch of kids, scientists, and ragtag guerillas who just found 14-year-old Hitler-Jesus in the experimental tank they were trying to salvage. They have no idea what to do with him and can't even agree on it, and as soon as things settle down and they try to sort out the insanity they're attacked again and he's whisked away. Third, it's Ikari Shinji we're talking about here. You know what happens when someone sit downs and calmly explains the situation to him and tells him to keep a cool head? He kills his best friend, nearly ends the world again, and then falls into catatonia when he's called on it. What makes you think keeping him in the dark wasn't just the lesser of several evils?
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Nov 12, 2013 22:11
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mr. stefan posted:So basically your grievance with 3.0 is that the characters did not disregard their personal biases immediately upon the movie starting to robotically act out advice from a psych 101 handbook, directly acting against all characterization they have received in past films and series in the process. Yes, while I don't expect every character to behave in a rational way all the time (specially in zombie movies), I did expect them to be able to deal with Shinji properly. Kill him, tell him about Rei, robotically act out advice from a psych 101 handbook, whatever. It is much better than what they did. What part of the characterization in the past films is them being morons? Now, they didn't do so. This can be fine as long as there is a good reason for them to behave out of character. But, honestly, to me it seems pretty obvious that it was done because the director wanted the viewers to feel uneasy about the situation, since they are also missing information. That is also fine, if it is done for this purpose. My problem is that they also use that to propel the movie forward. Had they not treated the most dangerous person or earth like poo poo then there are other interesting ways to have him fall into the hands of Gendou, instead, the movie took the easy way out (which is why it is lovely). But thank you for your dumb oversimplification, it helped me (hopefully) explain my point better.
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Nov 12, 2013 22:13
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trucutru posted:What part of the characterization in the past films is them being morons? You're joking, right? I mean "morons" is as much of a dumb oversimplification as anything mr. stefan said to you, but come on. They're emotionally unstable maniacs, every one of them.
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Nov 12, 2013 22:17
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:You're joking, right? They are emotionally unstable maniacs that have managed to survive in a lovely, lovely place for more than a decade. Them handling Shinji in pretty much the worst possible way is explained by the director deliberately not giving a crap (at that moment) for characterization in order to pull a on the viewer. Besides, the emotionally unstable maniacs argument can then be used to explain pretty much anything, so it is not very helpful.
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Nov 12, 2013 22:29
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trucutru posted:What part of me expecting them being able to properly deal with the guy you planned to rescue is having unrealistic expectations? None of that requires anyone to be kind to Shinji, or to explain anything to him. He isn't actually part of Wille, so divulging information could be dangerous (OPSEC!). Almost everyone on board has had their lives ruined by his actions, so noone feels a personal impetus to help him - Asuka would have happily broken his jaw! Even if they did want to help, they'd probably defer to Misato and follow her lead (aside from Sakura, who's too young to appreciate the gravity of the situation). Edit: actually, Mari would have helped Shinji because she likes him and she just doesn't give a poo poo about consequences. Unfortunately, she was busy during the attack. GulMadred fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Nov 12, 2013 |
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Nov 12, 2013 22:30
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trucutru posted:They are emotionally unstable maniacs that have managed to survive in a lovely, lovely place for more than a decade. Them handling Shinji in pretty much the worst possible way is explained by the director deliberately not giving a crap (at that moment) for characterization in order to pull a If you think people are generally rational in their response to mass murderers, go read some old GBS threads. And that's just talking about it in the abstract on the internet -- by comparison, Shinji is personally responsible for murderering friends and neighbors of everyone in the film. (At least from their point of view.) I should be grilling you about why you could possibly expect them to act rationally about it, not the other way around. This is not the director ignoring characterization -- what you're asking for would be ignoring characterization. Also, talking about what it could theoretically be used to explain is meaningless. It, along with many other factors I've just laid out, justifies what happens in the film. That's all it needs to do. EDIT: Also the fact that Misato is great at making split-second decisions in combat and terrible at making long-term choices about people is established over and over again ad nauseum throughout the series and the earlier Rebuild films. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Nov 12, 2013 |
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Nov 12, 2013 22:30
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:And that's just talking about it in the abstract on the internet -- by comparison, Shinji is personally responsible for murderering friends and neighbors of everyone in the film. (At least from their point of view.) I should be grilling you about why you could possibly expect them to act rationally about it, not the other way around. We're not just talking about any genocidal mass murderer here. Misato did also act as his guardian for a time and likely feels some responsibility for putting him into the EVA in the first place.
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Nov 12, 2013 22:48
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The characters act the way they do because we as the audience are meant to largely be in Shinji's shoes for the duration of the film and are meant to support his decision to leave Wille. Like so many other things in the film, I think it really just comes down to narrative convenience. There's no need to pull up Tomino Characterization excuses.
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Nov 12, 2013 22:49
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trucutru posted:They are emotionally unstable maniacs that have managed to survive in a lovely, lovely place for more than a decade. Them handling Shinji in pretty much the worst possible way is explained by the director deliberately not giving a crap (at that moment) for characterization in order to pull a I really don't get why you think anyone on the wunder has any particular reason to give a poo poo about Shinji's well being. You do remember that nobody at NERV really liked shinji that much, right? I mean, outside of Misato, all the bridge crew really knew about him was that he was commander Ikari's weird son with brain problems that didn't follow orders that good. I kinda doubt that someone like Ibuki knows Shinji well enough to contextualize his behavior in a sympathetic light, especially after he literally ended the world as they know it, and people like her are all that's left aside from Ritsuko (who is well established as not giving a gently caress,) Asuka (who's relationship with Shinji is established as adversarial at the best of times and confused all the time) and Misato (been covered.) You basically are mad that people aren't giving Shinji the benefit of the doubt when everyone involved either has no reason to give it or giving it would contradict their established behavior.
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Nov 12, 2013 23:00
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genericnick posted:We're not just talking about any genocidal mass murderer here. Misato did also act as his guardian for a time and likely feels some responsibility for putting him into the EVA in the first place. I know! That just makes it more emotionally charged and complicated, though. mr. stefan posted:I really don't get why you think anyone on the wunder has any particular reason to give a poo poo about Shinji's well being. Well... they kind of do, just in a negative way. Keep in mind Shinji isn't just someone they used to know who did something horrible; he's someone they entrusted their lives with, someone who embodied the hopes and dreams of Tokyo-3, and then betrayed them all, to save just one person, for reasons that may not even have been selfless even then. They all have a lot of Shinji-related baggage to unpack, is all I'm saying.
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Nov 12, 2013 23:12
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Misato's definitely got a big guilt complex going on, not solely because of her getting Shinji in the Eva in the first place, but also because of the fact that she's the one who gave him the Big Life Lesson on Making Your Own Decisions, etc., which directly led to the apocalypse - she was even cheering for him when he tried to save Rei!
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Nov 13, 2013 00:01
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trucutru posted:They are emotionally unstable maniacs that have managed to survive in a lovely, lovely place for more than a decade. We don't know how well they managed to survive. Given that the human race has seemingly dwindled from a world to a motley fleet and that a lot of the characters we know are absent (prsumably dead), they certainly haven't managed to survive very well. Also, given how different the world is to what we saw when Shinji saving Rei, it seems likely that a whole lot more was blamed on him than what he was actually responsible for.
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Nov 13, 2013 00:17
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cafel posted:He was pretty complicit in tricking himself, to the point where he has to willfully disregard Kaworu. Yeah, the problem wasn't that he was tricked. If that was the case, it would be all of WILLIE's fault. But the fact Kawrou went "Hold up this is all wrong, I think they might be tricking us!" kinda puts the blame on Shinji's shoulders entirely.
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Nov 13, 2013 00:22
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trucutru posted:Sorry, I am the kind of dude who believes that a movie has to stand on its own. Now, it may be indeed everything is carefully linked to the tv series and is a nice reward for mega-fans and that's cool. It's just not for me. That's all fine and dandy, but this movie in particular is deliberately made to play upon the massive cultural cachet the series has. It's cool if you don't like it, but at least try to understand what it's trying to do. Especially when they spend half the flick visually explaining (and ultimately justifying) exactly why Misato and Friends acted the way they did towards Shinji.
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Nov 13, 2013 00:33
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Hopefully 4.0 will make 3.0 worth it. Other than that my biggest problem with 3.0 was how Misato seemed to forget that she was shouting 'DO IT SHINJI, DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT' just before Shinji caused said apocalypse. I mean that must have been awkward afterwards.
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Nov 14, 2013 00:25
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PootieTang posted:Hopefully 4.0 will make 3.0 worth it.
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Nov 14, 2013 00:47
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trucutru posted:My point is that this was obviously done to keep the viewer guessing, for the whole I'm just playing devils advocate here but he did have that toe-tag with the ???? when he came out of the ether goo so maybe they weren't about to lay it all out for him out of fear. Nate RFB posted:Just sure seems to be like a whole lot of drama and risk to invite into your paramilitary organization tasked with saving what's left of the world. But he's played such a central and important part in the grand battle up to that point it's completely possible that you might need him for whatever solution you come up with. Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 00:54
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NutritiousSnack posted:Yeah, the problem wasn't that he was tricked. If that was the case, it would be all of WILLIE's fault. But the fact Kawrou went "Hold up this is all wrong, I think they might be tricking us!" kinda puts the blame on Shinji's shoulders entirely. Gonna go on a limb and say that nothing is really Shinji's fault at all. In fact, everything Shinji does is pretty logical for someone whose told that he's a gently caress-up and a terrible person every day of his life! I had pretty much the same issues trucutru had with the film in that a lot of WILLEs actions are kind of silly! Especially considering they seem to have knowledge that Gendo was pretty much using Shinji the entire time, so blaming him for everything despite knowing that seems like a bit of a flaw. I can understand being afraid of him and cautious because poo poo, he's still alive after 14 years of the apocalypse! But what they did was cut random wires on what was a ticking emotional time bomb that blew up in their face. It doesn't come off as genuine, but rather forced for the sake of the plot. So naturally when he wakes up and everyone hates him even more, he runs away. That's what people do when they're horribly depressed because everyone hates them all the time for reasons they can't even understand. Which then leads into Shinji's actions with Kaworu because he's so desperate to find redemption and fix everything that wasn't even his fault in the first place. Kaworu even recognizes this and is why he's one of the few people that doesn't blame him for everything it seems. FZeroRacer fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 01:42
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Shinji was never treated as badly as the projection people put on him outside of the rear end end of the series by Asuka and his own mind. That's half his problem; the other half is every person close to him is as hosed up as he is or moreso. Still, motherfucker caused the Apocalypse in Rebuild. Or at least an apocalypse. Technically two, given the climax of 3.33. The problem with 3.0 is that it doesn't give people what they want or expect, given what 2.0 set up.
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Nov 14, 2013 03:23
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