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https://twitter.com/IwriteOK/status/1194094729962672128?s=20 https://twitter.com/IwriteOK/status/1194412140980916224?s=20
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Jul 28, 2020 07:57
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PawParole posted:you mean the Battle of Hadrianopolis. Rome was a thousand years from falling at Teutonburg. I'm glad you explained this. I know every amatuer historian has their own "beginning of the fall of Rome" moment but the Teutoberg forest seemed like a real thunk one.
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Jul 28, 2020 08:44
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PawParole posted:you mean the Battle of Hadrianopolis. Rome was a thousand years from falling at Teutonburg. Maybe it fell very slowly?
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Jul 28, 2020 08:48
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Prince Myshkin posted:https://twitter.com/IwriteOK/status/1194094729962672128?s=20 lmao are you making GBS threads me
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Jul 28, 2020 08:52
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grate deceiver posted:lmao are you making GBS threads me https://twitter.com/IwriteOK/status/1274411732497313792
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Jul 28, 2020 08:54
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https://twitter.com/IwriteOK/status/1274399971685482496?s=19
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Jul 28, 2020 10:28
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sorry meant to add this is who he's joking about anticommunism with
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Jul 28, 2020 10:31
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Deified Data posted:They had a lovely ep where they were too nice and didn't know how to push back against a guest they personally like, and Amber was confirmed for the umpteenth time to be as bad as we always knew she was on race. That ep was a dumpster fire but I think it's a mistake ascribing too much meaning to it. Yep. MizPiz posted:There was also the time they were clutching their pearls at statues being torn down No, I think the greater point was that tearing the statues down skips a bunch of steps to make the change people seek. I didn't think it was pearl clutching.
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Jul 28, 2020 11:36
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They're still wrong, politics is symbolic order. By tearing down a statue protected by the state you're not skipping steps or doing performance or whatever, you're directly rejecting the state's order and authority. They're falling for the same dumb trap every internet activist does which is to blow one act up into the whole game and say "if everyone did that and nothing but that then we'd get nowhere!!!". Yeah and if everyone in the army was a trumpeter then they wouldn't get much done either. People do different things to advance the cause. Push on every front you can, including tearing down statues.
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Jul 28, 2020 12:21
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As outspoken fans of HyperNormalisation, and proponents of "logging off" in general they should have supported it. It's doing something rather than just complaining online.
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Jul 28, 2020 12:30
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i'm sympathetic both to the idea that the statues are basically a side track and a symptom of how impossible it seems to extract real concessions and to the idea that you need to roll with the popular anger you've got rather than wait for one which suits you more perfectly pulling down grant statues or defacing christ symbols does seem to do more harm than good though, in terms of mobilising support for other causes and reaching out to new groups. in my country, the statue thing completely sucked the oxygen out of the room when we were just starting to discuss seriously how we could mitigate discrimination of people with certain names in bureaucratic process (e.g. job applications are extremely grave), which makes me lean somewhat more towards the chapo line, at least at home also one of the statues they wanted to pull down for having invested in the slave trade turned out to have been an opponent of the trade who was forced by the state to buy a share in the danish colonial company, which made the whole thing look ridiculous. i guess if we had statues of modern slavers standing around i'd have a different tack to it
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Jul 28, 2020 13:08
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lol "pulling down statues was dumb in Denmark" so it's bad in the US is a really dumb take
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Jul 28, 2020 13:14
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lol drat imagine stanning for Makhno
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Jul 28, 2020 13:15
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V. Illych L. posted:i'm sympathetic both to the idea that the statues are basically a side track and a symptom of how impossible it seems to extract real concessions and to the idea that you need to roll with the popular anger you've got rather than wait for one which suits you more perfectly Libs are perfectly capable of finding another excuse to derail that kind of discussion, there's nothing unique about statues at all. If not for that it would be looting, squatting, political correctness/free speech concerns, abuse of benefits, rude brown youths in clubs, threats to property values, immigration and integration concerns, uppity sami or the god drat horrors of soviet russia. It's endless, you know this. thotsky has issued a correction as of 13:38 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 13:34
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Finally a good normal chapo today
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Jul 28, 2020 13:41
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thotsky posted:Libs are perfectly capable of finding another excuse to derail that kind of discussion, there's nothing unique about statues at all. If not for that it would be looting, squatting, political correctness/free speech concerns, abuse of benefits, rude brown teens in clubs, threats to property values, immigration and integration concerns, uppity sami or the god drat horrors of soviet russia. It's endless, you know this. no i don't what you're saying is that there's no way to discuss substance in politics, and that we might as well play along with tedious diversions because that's legitimately all there is. i disagree - measures were tentatively being discussed, and now that the concrete dust has settled somewhat are being raised again, but engaging in the statue dispute was a tactical mistake, at least in this country, and helped frame the whole movement as clueless. i'm in principle all for discussing how we use our public spaces, but a once-in-a-decade moment of actual awareness of structural racism is not the time for that, it's time to make people realise that actually yeah, if your name is ali you're hosed when applying for a job in every sector of society and that's clearly not reasonable
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Jul 28, 2020 13:46
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V. Illych L. posted:i'm sympathetic both to the idea that the statues are basically a side track and a symptom of how impossible it seems to extract real concessions and to the idea that you need to roll with the popular anger you've got rather than wait for one which suits you more perfectly A few weeks ago I saw a little nowhere town in VA, in a very red district, draw 150-200 to protest police brutality while about 15 chuds waved Trump flags outside the local gun store. And there was the usual cooption by the Democratic Party and the Definitely Not Racist No Sir Sheriff's office. But we're talking about baby steps for people whose most political act is doing a food drive or attending a PTA meeting. The statues are getting people into local activism related to law enforcement, housing, and evictions, which we're going to need a whole lot of real soon Halloween Jack has issued a correction as of 13:51 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 13:48
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the statues are a real material things that give passive, omnipresent centrality and normality to a particular racist distortion of history that is a huge ideological lever applied to any and every super serious real world outcome debate and struggle in this country. tearing them down is an unalloyed good and not some lib culture war distraction people going "only seven people were even imprisoned in the bastille!" itt
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Jul 28, 2020 13:51
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the point i'm making is, i guess, that this stuff is deeply contingent on specific circumstances and context. a statue of some slaver rapist is an easy, local target and can help build organisational chops without seriously alienating anyone you might win over to anti-racism. if all you've got is some playwright who wasn't even neutral on the issue, it's better to drop it.
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Jul 28, 2020 13:52
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i should reemphasise that i'm speaking from a non-american context here and a consistent bitterness to the clumsy grafting of anglo-american discourses over our local issues and politics so i may be overcorrecting somewhat
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Jul 28, 2020 13:55
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V. Illych L. posted:i should reemphasise that i'm speaking from a non-american context here and a consistent bitterness to the clumsy grafting of anglo-american discourses over our local issues and politics so i may be overcorrecting somewhat anyways i'll just say that the british in particular won't impress me until they get rid of their queen and give her crown jewels back to whoever they stole them from. they're tearing down statues of people related to the american slave trade, but that's like "let's clean ourselves of association with american slavery." motherfuckers y'all are british (not you, you're norwegian i think)
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Jul 28, 2020 14:04
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEpziXD-SDk
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Jul 28, 2020 14:06
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I'm from the same context and just lol at the idea that these people would have seen the light if only we had avoided making them choose between statues and brown people.
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Jul 28, 2020 14:11
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it might also help give context to the non-us folks that while the statues in particular might mostly be about conflict with confederate flag waving right wingers, it's part of a continuous spectrum of american historical delusion from there all the way to things like libs thinking America Is Already Great or that school segregation & prison biden is a progressive candidate. you can see this in the responses from increasingly lukewarm centrists to columbus statues and those of "neutral" (meaning pro-status quo) 19th century figures. the point is once we breach the line where we can tear down these falsehoods and not just feel obliged to maintain them because they've been enshrined, that opens up the door to libs chipping away at their Ken Burns view of what america is and how it got there i see your argument VIL, and it's shared by some americans too so i dont want to be dismissive, but as someone from the south i would say that the reason those people are dismissive of the significance of tearing down statues is because the statues are part of a ideological apparatus so powerful and pervasive it's easy to be blind to it. loving every little city in the south has something named jefferson davis whatever with a statue of some dixie shithead who supposedly led a bunch of people directly into canon fire because he was dumb as gently caress but really died of dickrot, and that overt veneration of trivially disproven history is a key engine of indoctrinating people into being violently, viscerally attached to these dissonant world views that enables stuff like "america spreads freedom" and "we invaded iraq to prevent another 9/11". i wasnt sure id live to see them be treated with disdain much less removed. its not winning a war, but it is chipping away at armor
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Jul 28, 2020 14:11
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thotsky posted:I'm from the same context and just lol at the idea that these people would have seen the light if only we had avoided making them choose between statues and brown people. the problem with this position is that it basically invalidates the idea of doing politics. what's the point if you've already decided that it's impossible to effect change? i'm not saying that you're necessarily wrong, it just seems like a strange starting point for political argument
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Jul 28, 2020 14:22
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V. Illych L. posted:i should reemphasise that i'm speaking from a non-american context here and a consistent bitterness to the clumsy grafting of anglo-american discourses over our local issues and politics so i may be overcorrecting somewhat
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Jul 28, 2020 14:22
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Breakfast All Day posted:it might also help give context to the non-us folks that while the statues in particular might mostly be about conflict with confederate flag waving right wingers, it's part of a continuous spectrum of american historical delusion from there all the way to things like libs thinking America Is Already Great or that school segregation & prison biden is a progressive candidate. you can see this in the responses from increasingly lukewarm centrists to columbus statues and those of "neutral" (meaning pro-status quo) 19th century figures. the point is once we breach the line where we can tear down these falsehoods and not just feel obliged to maintain them because they've been enshrined, that opens up the door to libs chipping away at their Ken Burns view of what america is and how it got there
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Jul 28, 2020 14:31
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i don't think it's controversial itt (or, indeed, that the cth podcast disagrees) to be cool with going after confederate statues at this point in time - where it starts getting a little dicey is where to stop, with the specific example of a statue of noted non-confederate (but also huge racist murderer) ulysses s grant - who, for sure, is a deeply problematic figure, but who remains a symbol of the fight against the most racist institution in american history what a statue is actually celebrating is a somewhat complicated debate, but it's not a completely insane interpretation to see a grant statue as a celebration of the abolition of slavery by military force, and so non-insane non-malicious people are going to be skeptical of it
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Jul 28, 2020 14:40
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In Portugal there was also statue discourse, passed thru a colander of "Barely hearing anything, ever, about the US or UK other than soundbites and to make sure the UK doesn't get too mad at us so we just don't report anything ever about the UK post-Boris-win", but there's that added part where you could grab a magnifying glass on every single colonial enterprise and go "I'm sure they still kept doing slavery here until the 1960's,1970's" so you end up with way, way more direct arguments that are mostly "Indigenous descendants would hate a Portugal without colonialism since they wouldn't have neat bright things to look at" or "Just by addressing THIS in Portuguese and not on your savage language, you're giving yourself away here".
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Jul 28, 2020 14:43
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genericnick posted:Maybe it fell very slowly? Rome is still falling to this day *intellectual dark web*
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Jul 28, 2020 14:46
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V. Illych L. posted:the problem with this position is that it basically invalidates the idea of doing politics. what's the point if you've already decided that it's impossible to effect change? i'm not saying that you're necessarily wrong, it just seems like a strange starting point for political argument Tearing the statues down is politics. You're free to argue how much change you're making in the community where that statue was placed, but you're definitely enacting change on that loving statue. Politics is violence. I would argue that having a discussion with someone and avoiding topics that might challenge them is a lot less political than tearing down a statue. I'm not saying it's impossible to make someone think, or change their minds, but the non-US context of which we speak, if anything, makes me a lot more pessimistic about the outcome of our semi-hypothetical debate, because someone in bumfuck Norway who sees the BLM stuff in the media and decides to latch onto the statues, and whether or not taking them down is justified, as a disqualifying factor when they have no relationship to them or the specific structures they represent are clearly telling on themselves. Property damage fits with their preconceived notions of brown people (and radicals) as violent and savage, and because of their liberal ideology and fear they desperately wanted any excuse to denounce the movement anyway. The vast gulf between a racist-but-not-confederate "mistakenly" being taken down and black people being murdered on camera should make this obvious; it being a sticking point is immediately sus. I've experienced the racist deluge seemingly progressive libs are able to come up with at this point if you don't back down, and it seems like you're making the point that we should pick our battles and appeal to these people in other areas, but that's a battle-tested recipe for no progress at all. I believe these people are consciously or unconsciously taking you for a ride, and only willing to debate when it poses no threat to their values and ideology. I both hope and think that people are done with compromising any radical potential to mollify libs. thotsky has issued a correction as of 14:51 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 14:46
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I think statue removals should be limited to confederates and Italians. Monument purification in one subclass.
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Jul 28, 2020 14:46
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this is some lib-style trying to define acceptable and unacceptable forms of protest
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Jul 28, 2020 14:46
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has anyone tried sucking-off the statues
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Jul 28, 2020 14:50
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thotsky posted:Tearing the statues down is politics. You're free to argue how much change you're making in the community where that statue was placed, but you're definitely enacting change on that loving statue. Politics is violence. I would argue that having a discussion with someone and avoiding topics that might challenge them is a lot less political than tearing down a statue. the statue poo poo was hogging enormous amounts of space for weeks, including in the left-wing press, such as it is. it was in direct competition for the airwaves with measures like jobseeker anonymisation or police oversight reform or even sensitivity training, and the only good thing to come out of it was that we got some myths busted about holberg and that we got to call churchill an rear end in a top hat the point being, i'm pretty sure that there's a political and social majority in norway for addressing a 30% deficit in interview invitations for people with arabic names if we can come up with something credible, which is a hell of a lot more important imo than having a frankly embarrassing offensive against a perfectly innocuous playwright. if we play this very transient moment right, we can finally make some actual progress on racism in this country, which is in direct conflict with statuechat: norway edition
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Jul 28, 2020 15:00
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V. Illych L. posted:the statue poo poo was hogging enormous amounts of space for weeks, including in the left-wing press, such as it is. it was in direct competition for the airwaves with measures like jobseeker anonymisation or police oversight reform or even sensitivity training, and the only good thing to come out of it was that we got some myths busted about holberg and that we got to call churchill an rear end in a top hat ya, the media sucks and is complicit, what of it? edit: I mean, there's really no point in repeating myself, but for the last time, there will always be a distraction, always a step that is one step too far for libs and always a reason why we can't have nice things. The left should certainly focus more on uniting around collective power, and then using it for radical means, but op-eds about statues in liberal media is not the main reason why we're making little progress. They're the smokescreen. In the mean time, if any actual progress on statues (tearing them down) gets done, that remains cool and good! thotsky has issued a correction as of 15:10 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 15:01
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I think the Chapos are severely underestimating the likelihood of the Election becoming a flashpoint. Trump DOES have an ultraloyal armed force in the form of DHS and ICE and, after listening to media roots radio's big Qanon 2-parter, I've become convinced that someone in the Trump admin is deliberately cultivating the Q people as a readymade force of brown shirts. Plus, while its unlikely he could successfully hold onto power in the face of opposition from the DoD, there is no guarantee that he or his allies are smart enough to know that.
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Jul 28, 2020 15:14
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I think Street Fight had the best take on statues I heard: each year there should be a vote and if any statue doesn't get at least 51% approval it should be torn the gently caress down.
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Jul 28, 2020 15:17
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thotsky posted:ya, the media sucks and is complicit, what of it? i'd honestly be happy with even non-radical progress on racism in this country, which, to reiterate, i think is actually within our grasp so long as we don't fumble the moment
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Jul 28, 2020 15:25
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 11:58 |
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doing a coup is work though. if Barr and Miller burst into the oval office with a twelve point plan to invalidate the election, Trump would be unable to stop talking about how they are being very unfair to the my pillow guy long enough to sign it imo I stopped worrying about Trump being a dictator on day five of his presidency, which he spent defining the FBI and CIA as his mortal enemies. all the levers of power are before him but he doesn't care at all about them unless they can help him on Twitter or some corruption
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Jul 28, 2020 15:28
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