GlassEye-Boy posted:In that case I seems a good theory is that Demandred (using Taim) was working to foil Mesaanas plan (manipulating the tower aes Sedai and the black ajah). Demandred certainly knew where Rand was as he was communicating with the Shaido encouraging them to also attack the Aes Sedai. Demandred and the Dark one probably didn’t want Rand in Tower hands as that reduces the chance of Chaos, and also increases the possibility of Rand being gentled. Mesaana was in on it. No matter what happened with the plot to capture Rand, she could use it to drive the wedge between the Tower and the Salidar Aes Sedai.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 00:04 |
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# ? Jun 3, 2024 22:43 |
Yeah, if you assume their goals are simply to breed instability and destroy unity, it would be hard to think of a better way than that sequence of events.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 00:06 |
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all they have to do is let him get knocked around a bit and then let him do his own thing after that. literally none of them are able to match his power and influence in terms of sheer effect it has on the land and people around them so they might as well let him be the one to do it.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 00:09 |
Yeah, recall Mesaana doesn't particularly care who's in charge of the Tower and what they're doing so long as they're advancing the overall goals. When Elaida sends the strike force to.attack the Black Tower, Alviarin asks Mesaana if she should intervene so that they don't risk Black sisters, Mesaana flat out didn't give a poo poo.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 02:32 |
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Am I remembering wrong, but didn't Elaida not even intend on finding black sisters, but just sisters she hated and the hunt was actually a miscommunication?
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 02:35 |
Shageletic posted:Am I remembering wrong, but didn't Elaida not even intend on finding black sisters, but just sisters she hated and the hunt was actually a miscommunication? You are correct. Sister, in particular, just Alviarin since she was blackmailing the poo poo out of Elaida.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 02:37 |
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GlassEye-Boy posted:In that case I seems a good theory is that Demandred (using Taim) was working to foil Mesaanas plan (manipulating the tower aes Sedai and the black ajah). Demandred certainly knew where Rand was as he was communicating with the Shaido encouraging them to also attack the Aes Sedai. Demandred and the Dark one probably didn’t want Rand in Tower hands as that reduces the chance of Chaos, and also increases the possibility of Rand being gentled. I don't think they were working to foil each other's plans at all- Mesaana's having her black Ajah goons torture Rand's sanity straight away, making sure he'll never trust any AS at all ever again, and then Demandred has Taim swoop in to spring newer, crazier, Rand from his captivity, loosing him to wreak more unhinged havoc across the nations he controls. The Black Ajah with the expedition being cut down by the Asha'man was completely incidental, because neither of the Forsaken cared what happened to them. Sammael was the one that was actually pulling the strings on the Shaido, with Graendal's help. Those two were not at all working with Demandred/Mesaana, and Taim's attack was almost certainly meant to prevent Sammael from capturing Rand himself as much as it was to put him back on the board and out of the hands of the Aes Sedai.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 02:56 |
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Why do Black Ajah put up with their oaths, anyway? It seems easy to sneak in to use the Oath Rod and they all know how it works.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 03:32 |
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mossyfisk posted:Why do Black Ajah put up with their oaths, anyway? It seems easy to sneak in to use the Oath Rod and they all know how it works. Lots of reasons I'd imagine. First they wouldn't want to go oathless because that would immediately expose them when they lost/never got the 'ageless' look. Second, even if the other Aes Sedai aren't super aware the other Black sisters are and probably keep a closer eye on the Oath Rod. Third you actually need someone else to use it, so at that point you'd need multiple Black sisters working together who all trust each other enough not to rat the others out for clout. Which describes roughly zero of the ones we see in the series. Fourth, tradition and a chronic lack of imagination. Zore fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Feb 3, 2021 |
# ? Feb 3, 2021 04:03 |
mossyfisk posted:Why do Black Ajah put up with their oaths, anyway? It seems easy to sneak in to use the Oath Rod and they all know how it works. Can't unswear without breaking the oath in the first place so you'd have to be really really creative.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 04:11 |
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Zore posted:Lots of reasons I'd imagine. First they wouldn't want to go oathless because that would immediately expose them when they lost/never got the 'ageless' look. Zore posted:Second, even if the other Aes Sedai aren't super aware the other Black sisters are and probably keep a closer eye on the Oath Rod. Zore posted:Third you actually need someone else to use it, so at that point you'd need multiple Black sisters working together who all trust each other enough not to rat the others out for clout. Which describes roughly zero of the ones we see in the series. Zore posted:Fourth, tradition and a chronic lack of imagination. fake edit: VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Can't unswear without breaking the oath in the first place so you'd have to be really really creative. oh, that's clever. I forget. What are the Black Ajah's oaths?
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 04:14 |
Black Oath #1 : to not betray the shadow until the hour of my death
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 04:19 |
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I don't think it's ever specified but it would be incredibly weird for a ter'angreal created to force criminals to obey an oath to be usable by someone alone. Just for basic security if nothing else so an oath roded sadist couldn't just steal and undo it. And we never see anyone actually use it alone in the series so Remember in the Age of Legends it was considered possibly the harshest punishment they had and used only as a last resort if they couldn't stop the person through more traditional reforms. Zore fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Feb 3, 2021 |
# ? Feb 3, 2021 04:20 |
VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Black Oath #1 : to not betray the shadow until the hour of my death Whoo, that scene! One of the best in the books. Vavrek posted:oh, that's clever. I forget. What are the Black Ajah's oaths? But yeah, Egwene explicitly wonders what the other two Black Ajah oaths are, but never gets a chance to ask Verin, so I don't think we ever find out.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 07:25 |
jng2058 posted:Whoo, that scene! One of the best in the books. I had to check the wiki, which says that we find out in the Wheel of Time Companion, not the main series. 1) I shall obey all commands given by those placed above me in service to the Great Lord 2) I shall prepare for the day of the Great Lord's return 3) I shall hold close the secrets of the Black Ajah, unto the hour of my death.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 07:36 |
th3t00t posted:I don't have the numbers in front of me but I always got the impression that Taim was in his late 20's early 30's and had been channeling for 5 or so years. He was a commoner and only rose to power because he was backed by the shadow. Whereas Logain was early to mid 20's and had been channeling for 2 years or less and was a nobleman who already had power and family connections. We were never shown the extent of Logains knowledge or prowess with the power before his gentling. It was mentioned that Logain was strong, but never that he had knowledge about the power like what Taim had. quote:“Let me understand,” Logain said when he lowered the pewter cup. “You want to know what I think of al’Thor’s amnesty?” Some of the sisters shifted on their stools, maybe because he had omitted calling her “Mother,” but more likely because they despised the subject.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 07:40 |
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Nothing that would prevent them from unswearing, except possibly the first if they were ordered to. Spoilers up to book 12: Galina certainly thought she'd be able to shed the oaths the Shaido Wise Ones forced on her if she could work around having been ordered not to pick up the rod after swearing to obey. Which implies to me a woman alone could relinquish her oaths. Verin also said she intended to use the oath rod to unswear the shadow's oaths but couldn't find it. I don't remember if it was clear whether she believed she needed to poison herself first, or if the poisoning was a last resort after not finding it. And of course, the hunters forced Black sisters to unswear those oaths without threatening them with death or anything. They were reluctant but I don't think they believed the hour of their death was upon them.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 07:43 |
Spek posted:Nothing that would prevent them from unswearing, except possibly the first if they were ordered to. Re: Verin. She explicitly says that she looked for the Oath Rod first because she had things she wanted to do before dying, but when it was missing only then resorted to the poison.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 08:43 |
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jng2058 posted:Re: Verin. She explicitly says that she looked for the Oath Rod first because she had things she wanted to do before dying, but when it was missing only then resorted to the poison. She also says that she's not sure she could have released herself with the Oath Rod: The Gathering Storm posted:"Regardless, my first plan was to find the Oath Rod, the see if I could use it to remove the Great Lord's oaths. The Oath Rod appears to have gone missing, unfortunately."
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 10:54 |
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On Black Ajah unswearing, the Black Ajah hunters showed us that actually removing the oaths is a pretty trivial, if painful, process. It's possible that one of the oaths might prevent a sister from doing it herself, on her own, but it's demonstrated that they're not inviolable and Aes Sedai are trained to mind-game themselves around the Three Oaths anyway. The hardest part would probably be obtaining the Oath Rod itself to do the deed with. I think the big thing is that basically none of the Black would want to unswear their oaths. They're Black for a reason, after all. The major reason to want out would be the Dragon's return, for those who aren't True Believers (like Sheriam), but of course once that's started leaving will definitely be noticed and you'll definitely be killed or worse. It'd probably be noticed and you'd probably be killed in any other time too, but it would certainly be swifter and more painful during the period the books take place in. And also Aes Sedai are very bad at being wizards and probably wouldn't consider it. IIRC it wasn't even really known that you COULD unswear Oaths on the Rod.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 13:25 |
Some stuff that are implied: Being a darkfriend is a deadly offense, if you're a black sister being pressured by non-black sisters, being of the black ajah is pretty much the top of your worries, particularly as they're already playing around with the oath rod.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 16:48 |
Not like it matters much since all Aes Sedai just skirt their oaths anyways.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 17:02 |
BigHead posted:I had to check the wiki, which says that we find out in the Wheel of Time Companion, not the main series. What's interesting about that 2nd is Verin isn't breaking that by helping Rand either. She is preparing for the Great Lord's return by making sure the Dragon Reborn is ready to stop him.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 17:37 |
Invalid Validation posted:Not like it matters much since all Aes Sedai just skirt their oaths anyways. Well, they smooth their skirts at least.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 17:47 |
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all the stuff about the truth of the oath rod and everything surrounding it is genuinely one of my favorite setting details just because i feel like it helps capture the series as a whole
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 18:21 |
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Johnny Joestar posted:all the stuff about the truth of the oath rod and everything surrounding it is genuinely one of my favorite setting details just because i feel like it helps capture the series as a whole There were Aes Sedai who lived 300+ years. Can you imagine how long they lifespan would have been without the oath road?
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 18:49 |
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Libluini posted:There were Aes Sedai who lived 300+ years. Can you imagine how long they lifespan would have been without the oath road? LTT was ~400 when he sealed the bore and in the prime of his life. One of the kin is nearly 600. I'm guessing top end OP users with access to Healing could push a millennium. Zore posted:Third you actually need someone else to use it, so at that point you'd need multiple Black sisters working together who all trust each other enough not to rat the others out for clout. Which describes roughly zero of the ones we see in the series. Chapter 26 of The Path of Daggers posted:Saerin fingered her knife hilt and eyed them quizzically, not shifting a step. “A puzzle,” she murmured. Suddenly she glided forward, her free hand dipping into Seaine’s lap so quickly that Seaine gasped. She tried to keep the Oath Rod hidden, but the only result was that she ended with Saerin holding the Rod waist high with one hand while she held the other end and a fistful of her skirts. “I enjoy puzzles,” Saerin said. This is the rest of the scene, pasted in because it's one of my favorite payoff moments in any of the Aes Sedai plotlines: quote:In the silence that followed, a mouse sneezing would have sounded loud. aparmenideanmonad fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Feb 3, 2021 |
# ? Feb 3, 2021 19:54 |
Johnny Joestar posted:all the stuff about the truth of the oath rod and everything surrounding it is genuinely one of my favorite setting details just because i feel like it helps capture the series as a whole The line where the Forsaken mention Aes Sedai "binding themselves like criminals" is such a good, subtle piece of world building. I do wonder if any enterprising Aes Sedai (Black ajah or otherwise) every had the idea to use it on rulers or other influential people over the years.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 20:02 |
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Libluini posted:There were Aes Sedai who lived 300+ years. Can you imagine how long they lifespan would have been without the oath road? (yes, because it literally cut their life in half). I think the companion actually notes the details as far as expected lifespan, and the correlation with strength in the power, where the absolute strongest like Rand or Lanfear would have expected to live for 800 years. That does bring to mind one of my (many) all time favorite scenes, that isn't really a large one in the scheme of the series, but it's the bit after re-integrating his memories as Lews Therin when Rand meets with Cadsuane and Min to talk about going to visit the Borderlanders at Far Madding. She calls him boy, as usual, and he just sorta quietly chuckles and goes 'Really now, cmon, I'm over 450, and I'm the only properly raised male Aes Sedai in existence, and you're still going to do that bit?' It's just such a funny dramatic shift from everything that had happened up until that point in previous books. Johnny Joestar posted:all the stuff about the truth of the oath rod and everything surrounding it is genuinely one of my favorite setting details just because i feel like it helps capture the series as a whole I agree though. It's the perfect representation of how things twist and warp and change and are forgotten through time. Mat Cauthon posted:
I think the rod, specifically, only works on people who can channel.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 20:04 |
"You may call me Rand Sedai, if you wish,"
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 20:33 |
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Gwaihir posted:I think the rod, specifically, only works on people who can channel. It does yeah. And I think Sammael when talking with the Shaido Wise Ones implies it would only work on people who channel saidar at that. He could well have just been lying though.
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 20:41 |
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Gwaihir posted:(yes, because it literally cut their life in half). "some channelers may have lived seven hundred years or more", is the closest I can find. Also notes that the life expectancy of even non-channelers was ~200ish in the Age of Legends. Long time since I've had occasion to open the Big Book of Bad Art (and, jeez, some of this art is really bad).
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 20:49 |
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So I was way wrong on how long Logain had been channeling. 6 years and no madness? drat!
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 21:27 |
KOGAHAZAN!! posted:Long time since I've had occasion to open the Big Book of Bad Art (and, jeez, some of this art is really bad). The WOT tabletop RPG rulebooks had some cool art, they used multiple artists (I think the same ones that did the illustrations for D&D 3e) I was disappointed, though, to see that myrddraal had hair, I always pictured them as being bald/hairless. And Google shows I'm not the only one, there's some fan-art that's a lot closer to how I pictured them in my head. edit: for example, art from the RPG The bowl haircut makes it look like a huge dork (almost literally), takes away from it's aura of fear This fan-art, for example, is quite a bit scarier and closer to how I pictured them (except possibly the mouth): Eh! Frank fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Feb 3, 2021 |
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 21:50 |
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aparmenideanmonad posted:LTT was ~400 when he sealed the bore and in the prime of his life. One of the kin is nearly 600. I'm guessing top end OP users with access to Healing could push a millennium. I like the implication that Mesaana, posing as Danelle Sedai was able to avoid detection because the Chosen considered themselves distinct from and above darkfriends Technically correct, the best kind of correct!
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# ? Feb 3, 2021 23:10 |
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DarkHorse posted:I like the implication that Mesaana, posing as Danelle Sedai was able to avoid detection because the Chosen considered themselves distinct from and above darkfriends
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# ? Feb 4, 2021 00:15 |
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a pretty universal factor for most of the forsaken is that they're fueled by pure pettiness
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# ? Feb 4, 2021 00:22 |
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Demandred and Sammael both went to the shadow because other people liked Lews Therin more than them. Like they were highly respected with tons of accolades... but Lews Therin had slightly more and they couldn't stand it. I'm not sure if Demandred's 'He was always just slightly better, taller and more handsome than me!!!!', or Sammael's 'He got a promotion that I deserved!' is more pathetic though.
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# ? Feb 4, 2021 00:29 |
It's Asmodean's I WILL BE THE BEST MUSICIAN by making it so no one can play better than me
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# ? Feb 4, 2021 00:35 |
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# ? Jun 3, 2024 22:43 |
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there was never going to be any actual competition between them as to which would be the dark one's most favored because it's obviously only ever going to be the one single chosen one who purely just wants what the dark one does and isn't just a useful, deluded idiot who only has power because they're one of the few from the time before everything got hosed up and still remembers things
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# ? Feb 4, 2021 00:37 |