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Narzack posted:The whole whiny Shinji thing is something that I never really got, even as a younger dude. He's a child, with a dead mother, an AWFUL father, stuck into a nightmare war that he doesn't understand or have any training at all for, he's abused and exploited by adults, tortured mentally by Asuka and beaten up by his peers, nearly dies over and over, is forced by his father to explode someone who finally starts showing kindness, and STILL keeps getting back in the Eva. AND HE'S A CHILD. It never made sense to me, the way people hate him.  How did Shinji get over with the Japanese audience?
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Feb 11, 2021 04:33
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literally the first big character-defining moment for Shinji is a show of how he's more motivated by concern for others than his father's approval, even as subsequent events prove that that is not a low bar to clear
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Feb 11, 2021 04:39
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Narzack posted:The whole whiny Shinji thing is something that I never really got, even as a younger dude. He's a child, with a dead mother, an AWFUL father, stuck into a nightmare war that he doesn't understand or have any training at all for, he's abused and exploited by adults, tortured mentally by Asuka and beaten up by his peers, nearly dies over and over, is forced by his father to explode someone who finally starts showing kindness, and STILL keeps getting back in the Eva. AND HE'S A CHILD. It never made sense to me, the way people hate him. Excuse me but in Final Fantasy 4-year-olds and 6-year-olds bravely face their deaths and existntial crisis without running away or whining. And in Gundam, Kamille would have just punched Gendo and also probably shot everyone at NERV. Honestly, What If situations with other anime youngers instead of Shinji always intrigue me. Imagine Light Yagami in his place. Shinji is just the odd child out.
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Feb 11, 2021 05:09
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Amuro from Gundam probably acts like a relatively normal kid would in that situation, other than the whole newtype thing. It fucks him up in the first ~20 episodes or whatever.
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Feb 11, 2021 05:13
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SHISHKABOB posted:Amuro from Gundam probably acts like a relatively normal kid would in that situation, other than the whole newtype thing. It fucks him up in the first ~20 episodes or whatever. Yeah. It's been a while since I saw first Gundam but I feel like Amuro, at least in the beginning, has a similar energy to Shinji. Amuro eventually pulls way ahead, in part because Bright and such are way better at providing a support structure. Also, he's 15 as opposed to Shinji's 13, which probably makes a difference. Given that Anno is apparently a big Gundam fan I wouldn't be surprised if there was a connection there.
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Feb 11, 2021 05:23
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:literally the first big character-defining moment for Shinji is a show of how he's more motivated by concern for others than his father's approval, even as subsequent events prove that that is not a low bar to clear His father is probably the most despicable person in the entire show.
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Feb 11, 2021 05:29
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Narzack posted:His father is probably the most despicable person in the entire show. There is no probably about it. Also it has been a while since I watched the relevant episodes but I thought Asuka just acted really poo poo towards Shinji.
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Feb 11, 2021 05:32
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It's Yui, actually.
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Feb 11, 2021 06:04
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Yui sucks so goddamn much, she probably would have found a way to be worse than Gendo I still can't wrap my mind around leaving your child behind with that shitstack of a dad.
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Feb 11, 2021 06:06
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Shinjobi posted:I still can't wrap my mind around leaving your child behind with that shitstack of a dad. it was that or be murdered
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Feb 11, 2021 06:07
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also while this is more a matter of inference, there's a very good chance she didn't leave him with Gendo Shinji is living with one of his teachers as a makeshift foster parent at the beginning of the show
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Feb 11, 2021 06:08
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Doesn't Shinji have a memory of Gendo abandoning him at a train station? Of course, we can't tell if that's really a memory or simply what Shinji thinks happened because, if I remember right, he very quickly morphs into teenage Shinji in that particular bit. Not that it really matters. Yui's disappearing act is what broke Gendo, and it was all because she either a. wanted to avoid being murdered by SEELE or b. wanted to be a monument to mankind's existence. Either way, she clearly didn't tell a soul. Yui's presented in an interesting way in the series because we only see her through the eyes of Gendo, Fuyutsuki and Shinji - and they all idolize her.
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Feb 11, 2021 06:15
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if poor communication skills is a damning quality in Evangelion, nobody has clean hands e: also she absolutely tells Fuyutsuki. do people not watch the director's cut version or something? i think he also has a line about "Ikari Yui, the woman who voluntarily went into the Eva" in EoE as well, if the semi-canonical weirdness of the DC doesn't sit well with you e2: also for all that Gendo idolizes Yui, he also specifically thinks of her as his conscience and expects her to hold him accountable for the horrible things he's done; whether Yui / Unit-01 devouring him is pure projection on his part or actually her will, the fact remains that he's resigned to it and not surprised at all (I lean towards the former because it's more consistent with how all the other characters experience Instrumentality, but if you wanted to argue that Gendo probably warranted special individual treatment compared to the bridge crew I wouldn't exactly laugh you out of the room) e3: also she's characterized elsewhere (while still alive and definitely not someone's hallucination) as being almost pathologically willing to see the best in him, which also cuts towards Gendo's Instrumentality being a manifestation of his guilty conscience Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Feb 11, 2021 |
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Feb 11, 2021 06:19
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NikkolasKing posted:Excuse me but in Final Fantasy 4-year-olds and 6-year-olds bravely face their deaths and existntial crisis without running away or whining.
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Feb 11, 2021 06:35
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the real question is "what would Tenjou Utena do?"
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Feb 11, 2021 06:38
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:also while this is more a matter of inference, there's a very good chance she didn't leave him with Gendo I like how we never see this guy.
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Feb 11, 2021 06:39
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SHISHKABOB posted:I like how we never see this guy. either he's just not that important, or the whole show is actually from the perspective of Rei's atemporal ghost and she didn't reach back that far 
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Feb 11, 2021 06:44
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:if poor communication skills is a damning quality in Evangelion, nobody has clean hands I took a quick glance through the EoE script and didn't find a line like that. As for the DC stuff, I'm pretty sure the only chat we see is the one in the flashback episode that amounts to Yui mentioning that she's opposed to SEELE, Fuyutsuki basically agreeing that her ideas are better than SEELE's, but then saying she doesn't need to turn herself into an experiment subject. Yui just says she's going with the flow, if I remember right, which I'd argue is another point in the 'concaling her intentions' column. It's unclear whether he knows that Yui was going to intentionally get herself absorbed into Unit 01 to thwart SEELE and/or escape murder and/or be a monument to mankind's existence. And if he knew, then it raises the question why he never told Gendo. And, I mean, telling no one what her actual plan is strikes me as a pretty good idea given that it means SEELE can't get it out of them. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Feb 11, 2021 |
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Feb 11, 2021 06:55
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:the real question is "what would Tenjou Utena do?" She would somehow transform into an EVA.
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Feb 11, 2021 07:04
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trucutru posted:She would somehow transform into an EVA. from this I conclude that Yui did nothing wrong
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Feb 11, 2021 07:13
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:the real question is "what would Tenjou Utena do?" My brain is not ready for that series
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Feb 11, 2021 07:17
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JazzFlight posted:I’d recommend skipping 25/26 Narzack posted:Oh, boy, that song at the end of Rebuild 2 is pretty terrible.
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Feb 11, 2021 08:26
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:the real question is "what would Tenjou Utena do?" Anyway she dual-pilots Unit 02 during EoE with Asuka and ejects her to safety after the MPE Lance attack. Utena uses her good arm to fight with the converted MP-LANCE, thrusting her fist into an MPE's S2 engine, achieving Unity with the S2 engine and the Soul of Evangelion. To save a frightened Shinji from being consumed by Lilith, she merges with the Angel and redirects the Anti-AT field inward, becoming an egg. She speaks with Shinji in instrumentality, and he is shown striding across the surface of the soul-egg. Utena encourages him to find happiness, and tells him that On This Rock, he shall deliver his gospel. Shinji converts Unit 01 i to a Crown of Thorns, pierces the egg and reseeds life on Earth. Shinji emerges from Instrumentality as a God, and vows that his paradise will find a way to let people grow without the fear of pain. Rei and Kaworu awaken, their eyes now silvery grey. Asuka rises from the earth as the post-credits scene. She knows this is a false Eden and that she must dethrone Shinji. FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Feb 11, 2021 |
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Feb 11, 2021 09:18
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Narzack posted:The whole whiny Shinji thing is something that I never really got, even as a younger dude. He's a child, with a dead mother, an AWFUL father, stuck into a nightmare war that he doesn't understand or have any training at all for, he's abused and exploited by adults, tortured mentally by Asuka and beaten up by his peers, nearly dies over and over, is forced by his father to explode someone who finally starts showing kindness, and STILL keeps getting back in the Eva. AND HE'S A CHILD. It never made sense to me, the way people hate him. He doesn't get into the sick rear end robot and punch the giant monsters though. Honestly that's the bulk of it. To this day I know people who refuse to listen to anything and still insist that shinji has zero character growth or development he just whines and complains and does nothing the whole series because their view of the show is constantly reinforced by the memes. wdarkk posted:Yeah. It's been a while since I saw first Gundam but I feel like Amuro, at least in the beginning, has a similar energy to Shinji. Amuro eventually pulls way ahead, in part because Bright and such are way better at providing a support structure. Also, he's 15 as opposed to Shinji's 13, which probably makes a difference. I really liked Amuro in Mobile Suit Gundam, his arc is pretty fun and I genuinely like where they took the character in Zeta and ZZ. It kind of made sense to me, at least. I really like the character interactions in the Super Robot Wars games because sometimes they manage to get some really good poo poo in there that often plays off of how similar plotlines and character arcs tend to be in mecha series and some of my favorites will always be times like when the pilots of mechs like Getter and Mazinger just kind of befriend Shinji and help him feel better about himself and the lovely situation he's in.
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Feb 11, 2021 12:19
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Shinji did sound pretty whiny in the old adv dub, which I think may have predisposed viewers to feel unsympathetic to him.wdarkk posted:Yeah. It's been a while since I saw first Gundam but I feel like Amuro, at least in the beginning, has a similar energy to Shinji. Amuro eventually pulls way ahead, in part because Bright and such are way better at providing a support structure. Also, he's 15 as opposed to Shinji's 13, which probably makes a difference. Kamille actually does have the drive and determination to keep piloting the gundam no matter how much it hurts him but... that doesn't exactly work out well for him.
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Feb 11, 2021 12:28
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Nuebot posted:He doesn't get into the sick rear end robot and punch the giant monsters though.
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Feb 11, 2021 13:05
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TenementFunster posted:i'll kill you
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Feb 11, 2021 14:02
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The enduring sentiment and thesis that I have arrived at when rewatching Eva in my later years, and reinforced by the recent one I just did, is that every single adult figure in the show fails the children. This can be the outright maliciousness of Gendo and Ritsuko, but even Misato winds up ultimately being neglectful, negligent, and self-centered in a numerous ways towards the end of the story that could be said to be the actual straws that break the camel's back for all involved. That all of this is in service of resolving a problem that was literally created by said adults, a problem that can only be resolved only by individuals who have virtually no fault or connection to it (because they didn't exist), is the cherry on top of it all. So yeah, I place none of the blame on the kids, least of all Shinji. None of his supposed whining bothers me at this stage because it's completely drowned out by the abject misery that is pushed upon him by all his supposed respected authority figures.
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Feb 11, 2021 14:30
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I agree with you, yeah. For me, the whole thing can be boiled down to, he's a a child. But then, i don't know if an adult could endure what he does and still keep getting back in the EVA. Speaking of which, my rewatch was spread out over a couple years for life reasons, so i might have just forgotten, but is it ever explained why it has to be kids on the suits? I assume something to do with flexible brains or something
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Feb 11, 2021 15:12
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Narzack posted:I agree with you, yeah. For me, the whole thing can be boiled down to, he's a a child. But then, i don't know if an adult could endure what he does and still keep getting back in the EVA. Speaking of which, my rewatch was spread out over a couple years for life reasons, so i might have just forgotten, but is it ever explained why it has to be kids on the suits? 1. the kids' mothers' souls are in the evas, except for unit 00, no one knows for sure what's up with that one 2. maybe only people born after second impact can sync with the eva? That's probably NERV's cover story for when the UN asks them why it has to be kids and they don't want to explain point 1.
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Feb 11, 2021 15:23
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There's any number of handwave lore reasons that are used, either stated implicitly or explicitly, but my point with the above is that this is largely irrelevant. The theme of the story requires that the onus be pushed onto the kids, whatever justifications the "plot" (i.e. the adults) use doesn't actually matter. Or put another way, I'm not really interested in exploring the whys because they are excuses that would ring largely hollow to me.
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Feb 11, 2021 15:31
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Well Manicured Man posted:1. the kids' mothers' souls are in the evas, except for unit 00, no one knows for sure what's up with that one
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Feb 11, 2021 15:34
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Nate RFB posted:There's any number of handwave lore reasons that are used, either stated implicitly or explicitly, but my point with the above is that this is largely irrelevant. The theme of the story requires that the onus be pushed onto the kids, whatever justifications the "plot" (i.e. the adults) use doesn't actually matter. Or put another way, I'm not really interested in exploring the whys because they are excuses that would ring largely hollow to me. poo poo, man, you could definitely draw a parallel between how the kids have to live in and deal with a poo poo world the adults created, and the modern crisis of young generations in the real world doing the same, particularly in relation to climate change and nightmare of(in America, at least) entrenched capitalism.
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Feb 11, 2021 15:46
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Pretty good posted:My totally baseless pet theory is that it's the original Rei that Ritsuko's mom murdered although almost nothing in eva is ever strictly confirmed, this is one that is very strongly implied imo
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Feb 11, 2021 17:32
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bicycle posted:although almost nothing in eva is ever strictly confirmed, this is one that is very strongly implied imo though, wasn't the spec for 00 and 02 based on Lilith biology? I thought that maybe piloting a fcuked up version of yourself is what is so troublesome for Rei and the going berserk poo poo 00 does was some kind of psychic freak out when Rei momentarily experiences this duality. or comedy Naoko Akagi option
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Feb 11, 2021 17:53
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Those theories would make sense if it weren't for the fact that 01 and 02 have Yui and Kyoko's souls because they went through with the contact experiments. So unless Gendo found a way to extract a soul from a corpse, I doubt it's either Rei-01 or Naoko
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Feb 11, 2021 19:13
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If it's not that Rei-1 I'm pretty sure it's another Rei. Doesn't seem like Rei would be compatible with anyone else.
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Feb 11, 2021 19:55
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FilthyImp posted:though, wasn't the spec for 00 and 02 based on Lilith biology? I thought that maybe piloting a fcuked up version of yourself is what is so troublesome for Rei and the going berserk poo poo 00 does was some kind of psychic freak out when Rei momentarily experiences this duality. Unit-01 is the only Eva that is based on Lilith (it is made from Lilith's missing legs). Unit-00 and Unit-02 (and the MPE series) are all based on Adam (which is why Kaworu is able to puppeteer Unit-02, though he admits he that he is only really able to do it because Kyoko's soul is too depressed to put up any resistance against him). By extension, it also supports the theory that Rei I/some part of Rei is the soul of Unit-00. Rei can control Unit-01 for the same reason Kaworu can control Unit-02 (and we also get to see what happens when the soul in an Eva refuses to cooperate with the pilot as Kaworu alluded to) and she can control Unit-00 because a fragment of her soul is in it.
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Feb 11, 2021 20:20
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its gendo's mom
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Feb 11, 2021 21:30
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Where is all this information from? The manga, or do I really suck dick at watching shows?
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Feb 11, 2021 22:32
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