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Son of Thunderbeast posted:I actually have no idea, i always assumed it was the new universe. Did araki create three universes? Lol Well in SBR/Jojolion Jotaro is a girl, so Irene worrying about her dad wouldn't really work I guess.
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Dec 5, 2021 20:33
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Ohhh true. Unless maybe Irene's mom is Jotaro now
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Dec 5, 2021 20:35
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Pucci created a universe where neither he nor Jolyne ever exist, congratulations, everyone loses. Idk what else to tell you other than you're wrong. It's ok to not like the ending of stone ocean but to continue to insist that it didn't matter, nothing matters, ignores the text of the work, the subtext, all in favor of pushing a nihilistic reductionist view that isn't supported by the manga because you don't like the ending. What a Wonderful World
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Dec 5, 2021 20:38
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For an ending about the fate of the Joestar bloodline Jolyne and Jotaro both going out selflessly giving up their lives for the sake of others works fine for me. Jolyne's death is badass precisely because she knows going into it there's absolutely no way she can win, if there were one time that would warrant bringing back the Roundabout ending that'd be it
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Dec 5, 2021 20:40
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Yeah, it's a sad end for our friends, but they still gave their lives for a better future and managed to succeed. They weren't able to wrap everything up neatly, but their actions still mattered.
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Dec 5, 2021 20:42
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I think the Stone Ocean ending would be a bit less divisive if Jolyne wasn't the only MC to die in their part after Jonathan. Aside from Johnny, I guess, but Civil War brings him back to life almost immediately.
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Dec 5, 2021 20:49
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multijoe posted:if there were one time that would warrant bringing back the Roundabout ending that'd be it YES YES YES YES YES
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Dec 5, 2021 20:54
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Momomo posted:Yeah, it's a sad end for our friends, but they still gave their lives for a better future and managed to succeed. They weren't able to wrap everything up neatly, but their actions still mattered. Did they succeed though? At what point is your victory so pyrrhic that not fighting would be a better option?
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Dec 5, 2021 20:55
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I get not liking the ending or finding it divisive, but I wouldn't say everything is in the dumpster. It's not like Pucci wins. I am glad characters from earlier parts did not show up. I can imagine it going one of two ways: 1. They get to do some small thing then disappear from the story, or just hang around but do nothing important. In which case, why even bother having them there. Even worse, they might get killed off too, which would make nobody happy. 2. They become a big part of the story, stealing the spotlight from the new protagonists. The previous Jojo's got to have their own time to shine in their own stories with their own resolution, and it would have sucked a lot if Jolyne didn't get hers (even if its a downer at the end). There is a reason why even Jotaro himself spends most of part 6 as just a motivating factor instead of an active participant. This is Jolyne's adventure.
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Dec 5, 2021 20:56
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:I think the Stone Ocean ending would be a bit less divisive if Jolyne wasn't the only MC to die in their part after Jonathan. Joseph should have died at the end of his part and only lived because it was a funnier outcome and and Gyro was as much the protagonist of SBR as Johnny and bit at the end too. We had some good times in the middle but one of the foundational ideas of the series is that 'walking the path of 'Justice'' is a very risky business
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Dec 5, 2021 20:56
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Brandfarlig posted:Did they succeed though? At what point is your victory so pyrrhic that not fighting would be a better option? It wasn't though, Pucciverse would have sucked and instead there's a brand new world free of the feud between the Joestars and DIO where their successors can live in peace
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Dec 5, 2021 20:58
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Brandfarlig posted:Did they succeed though? At what point is your victory so pyrrhic that not fighting would be a better option? Pucci didn't get the world he wanted so yeah, they succeeded. If they didn't fight then Pucci would have basically made himself god with no repercussion.
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Dec 5, 2021 20:59
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Two Tone Shoes posted:They...escaped their fate by succumbing to their fate? They don't "succumb to their fate," they die. The story distinguishes the two. Arist posted:This feels really cheap and unsupported as an idea by the actual text. Maybe if Emporio wasn't the only character to survive, or at least if we saw the new universe for more than like, three loving pages. Pucci's heaven is a world in which everyone in it knows everything that's going to happen. Everything and everyone (who isn't Pucci) has their life story effectively written in stone. The fact that after Pucci was defeated we barely see the new universe is the text supporting this reading. The cast escaped their fate, therefore we can't tell what happens next.
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Dec 5, 2021 21:23
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I can't separate dying from failure. Near failure at least. Congratulations to alternative Jolyne I guess but the character I knew got murdered. Jotaro also got robbed.
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Dec 5, 2021 21:49
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Schwarzwald posted:Pucci's heaven is a world in which everyone in it knows everything that's going to happen. Everything and everyone (who isn't Pucci) has their life story effectively written in stone. Another way of saying this is that the denouement of Stone Ocean is so threadbare (  ) you could extrapolate literally anything into it because there's equal textual evidence for all of it, which is none. All the stuff you guys are saying is not meaningfully in the story I read. It exists only in, like, implication of implication.
Arist fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Dec 5, 2021 |
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Dec 5, 2021 21:58
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Arist posted:Another way of saying this is that the denouement of Stone Ocean is so threadbare you could extrapolate literally anything into it because there's equal textual evidence for all of it, which is none. All the stuff you guys are saying is not meaningfully in the story I read. It exists only in, like, implication of implication. That's what the pros call an 'open ending'
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Dec 5, 2021 22:01
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The cast dying was a last minute change on Araki's part and I think that this amount of discussion years later proves it was a good idea, an ending more like part 3 wouldn't have been nearly as interesting
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Dec 5, 2021 22:05
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Arist posted:It exists only in, like, implication of implication. Emporio's stand literally holds the memories of an old destroyed world. Emporio is literally the equivalent of his stand for the new world.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:07
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Those are semi-interesting ideas that are conveyed extremely poorly.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:10
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It's weird that people get so mad when you criticize the ending that feels semi-designed for the audience to react negatively to
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Dec 5, 2021 22:11
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bobjr posted:This is what happens when you don't bring Koichi when there was that fan manga of jotaro dropping off an infant jolyne for josuke to babysit i found the premise completely unrealistic because he would have 100% entrusted koichi with that task
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Dec 5, 2021 22:11
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Arist posted:It's weird that people get so mad when you criticize the ending that feels semi-designed for the audience to react negatively to It's not criticism to tell lies about the thing you don't like
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Dec 5, 2021 22:14
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I think people are just disagreeing with your criticism and aren’t at all very mad
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Dec 5, 2021 22:16
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hatty posted:I think people are just disagreeing with your criticism and aren’t at all very mad FirstAidKite posted:It's not criticism to tell lies about the thing you don't like
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Dec 5, 2021 22:17
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Like, lmao, gently caress off saying I'm "telling lies."
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Dec 5, 2021 22:18
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Arist posted:Like, lmao, gently caress off saying I'm "telling lies." Arist posted:because there's equal textual evidence for all of it, which is none. All the stuff you guys are saying is not meaningfully in the story I read. It exists only in, like, implication of implication. e: lack of understanding or unwillingness to understand does not erase what is there
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Dec 5, 2021 22:19
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Do I have to manufacture a glowing neon sign that reads "in my opinion" and ship it to your house
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Dec 5, 2021 22:21
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kite your feelings about the ending do not make it objectively correct, nor does someone disagreeing with you make them a lie-teller
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Dec 5, 2021 22:31
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Arist posted:Another way of saying this is that the denouement of Stone Ocean is so threadbare ( The story that goes hard on literalizing "fate is a regimented prison" ending the story (regiment) after killing a the literal warden imposing fate and leaving a literal prison isn't "no textual evidence." If it were any more blatant they have to print it in blinking red text!
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Dec 5, 2021 22:37
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Aurora posted:kite your feelings about the ending do not make it objectively correct, nor does someone disagreeing with you make them a lie-teller Their opinion is that people are saying things about the ending that are based on nothing but speculation and that there is nothing there to back it up. I said they are wrong, because they are. It's ok to not like the ending. That's fine. Them not liking the ending or the text or not wanting to engage with the text does not mean the text isn't there and does not mean that the people who do engage with the text are engaging with something that doesn't exist.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:41
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I don't care for Stone Ocean's ending but saying it was designed for people to react negatively to it is silly.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:41
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You guys are going all-in on "these ideas are in the story" which, whatever, I'm sure they are. What I'm saying is that these ideas are not presented well to the audience, especially at the end. Also, my point was ultimately that to go "the story just loving ending immediately after the climax with no followthrough to communicate any of its thematic ideas is proof of those ideas being present" is... kind of ridiculous! It reads like retrograde construction of arguments from a preexisting conclusion. Not saying people are doing that, it just feels like a very weak premise. SyntheticPolygon posted:I don't care for Stone Ocean's ending but saying it was designed for people to react negatively to it is silly. I guess I just don't think Araki is dumb enough to think "people are really gonna like me killing off all of my protagonists in one panel."
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Dec 5, 2021 22:46
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The ending shows that now the entire joestar line and friends get to exist in a world where Dio doesn't exist and doesn't haunt their entire family/the world forever. They died to create an alternate universe where they don't have to constantly be worrying about stand users coming to kill them, they can just live as normal people, and the world isn't in danger because of vampires or people who are in love with vampires
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Dec 5, 2021 22:48
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Arist posted:I guess I just don't think Araki is dumb enough to think "people are really gonna like me killing off all of my protagonists in one panel." I think Araki figured it was a strong thematic ending to the story he was telling with that stuff about gravity and fate and poo poo. The whole Made in Heaven fight is lame and bad but I don't think Araki was working from the idea "Wow, everyone's gonna hate this"
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Dec 5, 2021 22:53
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I'm not sure Araki has every really given a poo poo what other people think about his creative choices, outside of a "what I find boring to write/draw will be boring for someone else to read" kind of way. It made thematic sense to him, take it or leave it. It's not like it's the first or last time that's happened.
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Dec 5, 2021 23:00
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Xad posted:The ending shows that now the entire joestar line and friends get to exist in a world where Dio doesn't exist and doesn't haunt their entire family/the world forever. They died to create an alternate universe where they don't have to constantly be worrying about stand users coming to kill them, they can just live as normal people, and the world isn't in danger because of vampires or people who are in love with vampires I don't think anyone doesn't understand this. I'm pretty sure we're all on the same page as to what Araki was trying to say. Personally I don't like it because it has the same impact as "It was all just a dream..." Like you could change the ending to Jolyne waking up and realizing she dreamed all of parts 1-6 and none of it actually happened, but now she and her family can live free of worry about DIO etc. because they never existed anymore, and it has the same impact. I think Araki'd only really need to change one thing to make the ending a lot better (imo): have Jolyne be the sole survivor and the only one who remembers everything that actually happened. I still wouldn't be crazy about it but having Jolyne be the sole bearer of the burden would feel like a better and more appropriate ending than shoving it all on Emporio and have the Joestars escape everything completely unscathed
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Dec 5, 2021 23:00
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:I don't think anyone doesn't understand this. I'm pretty sure we're all on the same page as to what Araki was trying to say. if there's anything i've gathered over time it's that there's absolutely plenty of people who don't get jack poo poo about it and think it was just done out of spite
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Dec 5, 2021 23:08
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unrelated but jolyne getting the dark determination in one of the first few episodes ruled
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Dec 5, 2021 23:12
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What year did stone ocean take place in? I wanna say it was 2012 to go with the end of the world thing but I can't remember if it was 2012 or 2011.
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Dec 5, 2021 23:15
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Xand_Man posted:There are a few things in Part 6 that make it obvious it's a dude writing a story that just happens to have a majority female cast, and the Anasui/McQueen portrayal of stalking as a bit of harmless fun is definitely one of them. ??? McQueen literally tried to murder Ermes he wasn’t portrayed as “harmless” at all the main villain of the part calls him sick and evil
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Dec 5, 2021 23:15
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