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One thing I think is worth remembering is that the Good Ol' Days didn't exist in a vacuum. A lot of the earliest games were intentionally obtuse either to encourage players to work together or to sell guidebooks depending on how negative you like to feel. When you discuss exploration that is an important factor because most people who played these games early probably would shell out the cash for a guidebook if they got stuck. Once the internet started getting bigger that was replaced by Gamefaqs and other sites which effectively offered explanations on how to go places or find secrets. The 'true experience' of playing older games isn't just the game because that isn't how they were designed. Information was contained in the manual, some games came with fold-out maps or insanely thick instruction manuals, guidebooks were an expected resource if you were willing to shell out the cash, and things like Famitsu and Nintendo Power specifically focused on giving maps/hints/etc to games For all the people who like to go "Old games were better, they didn't hold your hand so much" they often forget that was because they intentionally obfuscated things (or just had bad design.) When discussing playing Final Fantasy it's easy for people to forget they dropped $15 on the Official Guide To Final Fantasy III or their friend on the playground told them this rumor about how you can TOTALLY recruit this super strong character by getting a game over against a random enemy. You can say "Well that wasn't part of the game" but to be honest it was. Developers have gone on record as stating that guidebooks were considered and designed around. Hell ask anyone who worked on physical guides, that poo poo was often intentional marketing. (See the hilarious FF9 PlayOnline bullshit.) The idea that gamers these days are babies who need their hand held ignores that gamers in the old days were babies who needed their hand held too, just in different ways. And our DLC was "Drop entirely too much money to find out how to get out of a dungeon + some artwork and maybe interviews" instead of "Drop entirely too much money to wear a pretty hat."
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Feb 5, 2022 01:23
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Got to make old games super hard so they end up having to rent them several times. Some even got made intentionally harder so you had to rent them many times.
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Feb 5, 2022 01:32
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Scalding Coffee posted:Got to make old games super hard so they end up having to rent them several times. Some even got made intentionally harder so you had to rent them many times.
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Feb 5, 2022 01:39
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ninety five loving us dollars for lufia 2 you bet your rear end i rented that 4 times for $20 total
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Feb 5, 2022 01:41
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Shabadu posted:ninety five loving us dollars for lufia 2 you bet your rear end i rented that 4 times for $20 total I rented it once over a long weekend, printed out a bunch of gamefaqs stuff at the library and binged it over 1 weekend man I would kill for a Lufia 2 Pixel Remake e: I even made it to the bottom of the Ancient Cave 
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Feb 5, 2022 02:05
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Hellioning posted:The only point of Jachol is a piano (and I suppose the first time you can get a ninja suit in a shop). Like I get your point (at least I think I do) but bard was not exactly your DPS bread and butter in the previous two games (especially considering you might not have even played either game, especially since III wasn't released in the west until after V, twice). Istory is more worthwhile, I agree, though again you get a bard song. Also you don't actually have a bard yet. Ninja and Summoner. While the Mage Masher's not super-exciting in and of itself outside of 4JFs, it is the optimal at least offhand for Ninjas (depending on how many of the also-optional Mains Gauche you found) until world 2. I'd also argue that someone with good genre and series knowledge by specifically 1991 standards is going to be excited by the Ashura even though they can't equip it yet, since each previous FF games had at least one of katanas or knight swords be extremely special, and it's the first one of either you see in 5. But the key point I'm making is that the idea is very annoying in a particular mindset where you know a big-budget, flashy game has a specific thing you need to do to see all the plot and you know the plot is the point. Someone who's actually new to games isn't going to be sure whether there's a strict single plot, an open-ended set of vignettes, alternate plots based on their actions, or just a number of tools in an open world which they can refine their understanding and mastery of. Not knowing where to go to progress the plot, yet feeling the need to progress the plot, isn't the default human state, it's the state of someone already trained by a common, sometimes hegemonic, but never universal conception, a frustration trap for those who have played games but only ones that worked like that, rather than those who have played no games at all. Which is why the kulturkampf lines laid down in the late '90s through early '00s, to assume that anyone who discounts that frustration is themselves assuming ImpAtom posted:that gamers these days are babies who need their hand held strikes me as so confused. Minecraft, the canonical ~game for babies~ from 2010 or so on, the one that's wildly popular as edutainment or a gift for a young relative who's just gotten their first console, is a game that operates on what's being presented as grognard rules: you must see what's over the next hill yourself rather than having the game point you there, because it's only algorithmically generated when you get there. So whatever the value or lack thereof this approach is, it's not linked to maturity, not even generational except in the respect of having been more prevalent for some generations and less prevalent for others with no fixed trend. Those who like it can't be bitter old men when they're outnumbered in their camp by tens of millions of preteens; those who dislike it can't be championing the needs of less-genre-savvy players when the players who are still working on genre savviness in tying their own shoes are quite satisfied by it. To take a categoric view of it, to consider it an accessibility question in the same lines as the very real problems with poorly-legible text or sound or color only cues, is an uncomfortable conversion of the tastes which coalesced in particular eras into eternal, universal signifiers. So I accept that you may have found that open-endedness frustrating, certainly don't mind games that consciously avoid it at all, but also welcome it as a hint of variety for people who may have different backgrounds or tastes and might prefer something different, or even elements of both in one package, and will do so until those are the dominant metaphor, at which point I'll then be pleased when I find a comparatively-rare cohesive and scripted experience. Mandoric fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Feb 5, 2022 |
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Feb 5, 2022 02:10
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ImpAtom posted:The thing about glowing arrows is that basically every game that has them and isn't a linear line has the option to turn them off. Including them hurts nobody. I think people are afraid that a game company will get lazy and rely too much on quest arrows without giving the player both options. To use the example of Morrowind vs Oblivion/Skyrim that was mentioned, Morrowind didn't have quest markers but NPCs would give you directions where to go (and sometimes would be unsure and give you a vague lead). The design of Morrowind backed this and you'd have ways to find out where to go (like road signs and stuff like that). It's totally fine if a mod or remake adds optional quest markers to Morrowind, you lose nothing by turning them off. Oblivion changed this and made the quest design entirely dependent on quest markers. It's totally acceptable for an NPC in that game to say "Hello Hero of Kvatch. I lost my dog. Can you find it for me?" And nothing else, because a quest marker will pop on the other side of Cyrodiil showing exactly where you need to go. Skyrim follows this. If the player removes quest markers in those games, they are completely hosed. There's nothing else to guide them. Bethesda did not give options to the player, they sabotaged one way of playing in favor of the other. FFXIV has both types of quests, to bring this back to Final Fantasy. Most work like Oblivion/Skyrim and you are dependent on the markers. And then once upon a time the game will ask you to please pay attention to the dialogue because the next quest demands exploration. So i think people are afraid because they like free exploration but think Squeenix would be a Bethesda and only support one way of playing. Frionnel fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Feb 5, 2022 |
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Feb 5, 2022 02:27
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Minecraft is Legos. The point of the game is not to beat it. It tosses you in a playground. Saying "people like Minecraft" ignores why Minecraft is different. Also Minecraft videos and tutorials are insanely popular. Like they are a massive part of its success The fact you assume I don't like games that let me get lost is on you however. I love poo poo that surprises me. I just am aware what I like isn't always what is the best for anything but niche. I grew up on hard games, I fuckin' loved the days before everything was datamined two weeks before the game is out. I think it's fun to feel overwhelmed. I am not saying this because it represents the games I most enjoy playing. I'm saying it because retroactively pretending that the average person playing a game enjoys feeling frustrated is in direct contradiction to everything we've seen through the history of gaming. Frionnel posted:I think people are afraid that a game company will get lazy and rely too much on quest arrows without giving the player both options. I absolutely get that but it's worth noting that is Bethesda. To use an example of another terrible company, fuckin' Ubisoft has made "You can play the game without any markers" a literal selling point for their last few Assassin's Creed and other games are doing similar. It isn't even about good company vs bad company. It's just depending on how you want to design, and if cookie cutter rear end Asssassin's Creed games can be played that way I don't think it's worth stressing out at the idea of everything being that way. Bethesda just kinda sucks. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Feb 5, 2022 |
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Feb 5, 2022 02:28
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Gaius Marius posted:There was an invisible monster that killed my whole party. Sometimes the vanish dooms you!
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Feb 5, 2022 02:35
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ImpAtom posted:I absolutely get that but it's worth noting that is Bethesda. To use an example of another terrible company, fuckin' Ubisoft has made "You can play the game without any markers" a literal selling point for their last few Assassin's Creed and other games are doing similar. It isn't even about good company vs bad company. It's just depending on how you want to design, and if cookie cutter rear end Asssassin's Creed games can be played that way I don't think it's worth stressing out at the idea of everything being that way. Bethesda just kinda sucks. Just in the interest of being fair, Bethesda didn't make that change completely out of lazyness. They made the decision that Oblivion would be fully voice acted while also blowing their entire budget on Patrick Stewart and Sean Bean, and removing NPC directions let them cut the number of lines needing to be written and voiced. So uhm, incompetence and lazyness. But i don't know anything about Assassin's Creed. Did Ubisoft actually make it viable and fun to play the game without markers? Frionnel fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Feb 5, 2022 |
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Feb 5, 2022 02:45
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Frionnel posted:Just in the interest of being fair, Bethesda didn't make that change completely out of lazyness. They made the decision that Oblivion would be fully voice acted while also blowing their entire budget on Patrick Stewart and Sean Bean, and removing NPC directions let them cut the number of lines needing to be written and voiced. Surprisingly yes. The NPCs tend to give directions that are at least reasonably based on landmarks and stuff and they focus enough on trying to make the areas 'realistic' that you can puzzle things out. You do have the ability to scout with magical eagles of course but that's kinda different from "GO HERE NOW." AC has a lot of problems but at very least if you want to explore a reasonably fun version of an ancient area it does it well.
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Feb 5, 2022 02:47
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ImpAtom posted:Minecraft is Legos. The point of the game is not to beat it. It tosses you in a playground. Saying "people like Minecraft" ignores why Minecraft is different. Also Minecraft videos and tutorials are insanely popular. Like they are a massive part of its success I'm taking you at your own word, that you think they're niche. They're quite obviously not, and in any case "what you can do with these tools" discussion--apart from not actually giving you direction, which was how we got onto this--would be very similar to how FF5 would work if it it were truly aimless and we could only share job combos.
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Feb 5, 2022 02:56
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holy poo poo https://twitter.com/YunalesckaGames/status/1489498506909741058?s=20&t=vZp4e9Fh6oQf-KBvsbciGw
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Feb 5, 2022 03:49
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drat, those look good.
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Feb 5, 2022 03:55
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I just finished FFVII Remake and despite the fact that its nothing but insane time travel nonsense the only thing that struck me as truly unbelievable was Biggs surviving. You could have left Biggs dead and no one in the world would care, and he doesn't even have the contrived excuse of not being directly on the tower like Wedge did. Also there's something inherently funny about killing the anthropomorphic concept of fate and getting 1400 gil out of it. It's not even a big amount for NG+ or anything, fate was just carrying around some pocket change.
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Feb 5, 2022 04:04
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Snow Cone Capone posted:holy poo poo This is suspicious in such a promising way. You wouldn't release high-quality figures from a cult classic 90s game for nothing, surely? There's something else bringing this into attention?
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Feb 5, 2022 04:07
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Please let it be a port of Final Fantasy Tactics on the Switch.
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Feb 5, 2022 04:09
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They're releasing it for a lot of money. Stuff far more obscure than a PS1 FF game gets pricey merch all the time. Heck, weren't people just talking about a Vagrant Story fig a bit ago?
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Feb 5, 2022 04:09
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Figures aren't canon, they have noses.
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Feb 5, 2022 04:11
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Cleretic posted:This is suspicious in such a promising way. You wouldn't release high-quality figures from a cult classic 90s game for nothing, surely? There's something else bringing this into attention? Sorry but they put out Xenogears and Vagrant Story figures last year too.
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Feb 5, 2022 04:31
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Cleretic posted:This is suspicious in such a promising way. You wouldn't release high-quality figures from a cult classic 90s game for nothing, surely? There's something else bringing this into attention? The Nvidia GeForce leaks brought a FFT Remaster to light. Then there was a play test survey that went out around the same time asking questions related to a bunch of tactical games while specifically mentioning the FFT DS games, the PSX version, and the iOS/Android version. People thought it was weird the same game was mentioned so many times in a general survey, so here’s hoping.
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Feb 5, 2022 04:40
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FFT should be a FF14 minigame
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Feb 5, 2022 04:40
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Watching FF7 and FF7R reviewer Tim Rogers guide his partner through playing The Last of Us right now. Seeing a relative neophyte to AAA games getting absolutely lost and turned around every 10 minutes in an ultra-linear, highly signposted game, and remembering the earlier conversation that anyone who needs navigation aids in games is weak and ruining things for everyone else
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Feb 5, 2022 05:29
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Super No Vacancy posted:FFT should be a FF14 minigame Lord of Verminion Tactics
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Feb 5, 2022 05:32
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pretty soft girl posted:Does PS4 still hold up? I've heard so many good things about it but I've never gotten around to playing it. I finally played through all three chapters of shining force 3 last year so I could definitely stand to scratch that Sega rpg itch some more I mean this is going to be heavily biased because of nostalgia but yea, I'd say PS4 holds up. It does a lot really well, like the already mentioned comic book style cutscenes, it has combination techs like Chrono Trigger, it's a pretty huge game, the soundtrack is Genesis AF and slaps, and it has a great cast. The biggest problems with it I think are going to be necessary grinding, and the dungeons are pretty long and some of them are can be a little confusing. It also has a ton of references to the other 3 Phantasy Stars so some of that won't hit if you don;t have any experience with them. I want to say PS4 is on the Sega Genesis Collection so it's pretty easy to get a hold of. Shabadu posted:ninety five loving us dollars for lufia 2 you bet your rear end i rented that 4 times for $20 total Lufia 2 is loving awesome too. It's really amazing how much better it is than the first Lufia, and the Ancient Cave was awesome when you were a kid and got a few games a year. Shame about the bizarre map bugs that came with the US version. Gaius Marius posted:Having the one sabotaging the work be a nobody Octopus is just baffling. Yikesaroo.
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Feb 5, 2022 05:33
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I just remembered this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZJxYLoun7g
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Feb 5, 2022 05:33
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Electric Phantasm posted:I just remembered this I wish we really had this
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Feb 5, 2022 05:34
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Electric Phantasm posted:Lord of Verminion Tactics this is island sanctuary
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Feb 5, 2022 05:44
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NikkolasKing posted:FFXV? That was the best thing about teh game. Lol at its main plot. FFXV has a plot? I mean, it's bros road tripping their buddy to his wedding and enjoying some quality monster hunting while occasionally some guys drop out of the sky to try and kill them? Also maybe there's a war? I dunno, I'm only on chapter 9 (just arrived in not-Venice) and it seems like most of the story is happening off screen. CharlieFoxtrot posted:Watching FF7 and FF7R reviewer Tim Rogers guide his partner through playing The Last of Us right now. Seeing a relative neophyte to AAA games getting absolutely lost and turned around every 10 minutes in an ultra-linear, highly signposted game, and remembering the earlier conversation that anyone who needs navigation aids in games is weak and ruining things for everyone else I found this an excellent look at how not understanding the "language of games" can make them very difficult for people not versed in them. It's similar to how conjugating definite articles in German is easy if you study a bit and are exposed to it a lot, but if you're a native English speaker and have zero idea what the difference is between the "dative" and "genitive" cases are... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax7f3JZJHSw
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Feb 5, 2022 05:58
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Cleretic posted:This is suspicious in such a promising way. You wouldn't release high-quality figures from a cult classic 90s game for nothing, surely? There's something else bringing this into attention? Like I enjoyed FFT as much as the next guy, it was basically my introduction to SRPGs as a kid, but none of this means anything and you're all reading tea leaves.
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Feb 5, 2022 06:00
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They released an Ashley Riot play arts figure not too long ago. If you don't recognize that name that's okay, because the game sucked and was bad But the point is we're not getting Vagrant Story Redux or anything
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Feb 5, 2022 06:11
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Super No Vacancy posted:this is island sanctuary Is this something that's gonna be available right away or do I need to get through Endwalker first?
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Feb 5, 2022 06:12
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Electric Phantasm posted:Is this something that's gonna be available right away or do I need to get through Endwalker first? from its very nature, I pray to the twelve they only do something like limit it to level 15 and do whatever unlock quest (we don't know yet)
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Feb 5, 2022 06:15
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Electric Phantasm posted:Is this something that's gonna be available right away or do I need to get through Endwalker first? You'll probably need to get through it first, and it's not going to be out until at least 6.1, March or later.
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Feb 5, 2022 06:18
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Commander Keene posted:Like how they wouldn't make those high-quality models for that Chrono Cross crossover event in that gacha game if they weren't going to announce something? There are absolutely going to be Chrono Cross and FFT remasters and they will be released on the Switch Pro.
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Feb 5, 2022 06:46
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Toph Bei Fong posted:FFXV has a plot? Well, I'm afraid I have to warn you that there is only plot left after this point. And surprise surprise, it's not very good and the worst part of the game by leaps and bounds. There are a few bright spots here and there, though. But yes, FFXV is Bros Go Fishing and Hunting. Especially fishing. I love that minigame so drat much.
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Feb 5, 2022 06:57
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I'll give the VI crew credit, they're at least smarter than P4's clue crew seeing them actually question if Gestalt is full of poo poo with the peace talk. Too bad their still just going to do exactly what he needs them to do, after Kefka literally moments ago told them Gestalt predicted their moves and was already using them. I really wish the game would stop trying to make me use Locke. I didn't like him already, but finding that he crippled his girlfriend and then had some weirdo keep her body in his basement is a bit loving much. Also the end of the Magitek facilty was highly anticlimactic, I'm in the heart of the empire give me a worthy fight. Instead I get some timed narrative fight in a garbage chute and evil arms? C'mon
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Feb 5, 2022 07:08
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Gaius Marius posted:I really wish the game would stop trying to make me use Locke. I didn't like him already, but finding that he crippled his girlfriend and then had some weirdo keep her body in his basement is a bit loving much. That isn't actually what happened. There was an accident that gave her amnesia and her dad took the chance to run Locke off and Locke was blaming himself. Then while Locke wasn't there the Imperials invaded and she was caught in the crossfire and Locke's keeping her on magical life support looking for a way to save her.
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Feb 5, 2022 07:14
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NikkolasKing posted:But yes, FFXV is Bros Go Fishing and Hunting. Especially fishing. I love that minigame so drat much.  
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Feb 5, 2022 07:24
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Literally laughed out loud playing the Yuffie FFVIIR DLC when they revealed the Fort Condor minigame. Does it suck as much as the original Fort Condor minigame? Is that even possible?
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Feb 5, 2022 07:27
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