READ OP! War in Ukraine: a distressed blender making too many margaritas at once

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alex314: Nov 22, 2007

This hateful declarations won't stand!

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:31

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 05:14

Shes Not Impressed: Apr 25, 2004

https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1501233820850339847?s=20&t=d0XJON9exDxCJI0FPrSPZg

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:31

Koos Group: Mar 6, 2013

Neurolimal posted:

I mean, there's another option to come to terms with the discrepency between what everyone with professional experience is saying vs. what Twitter/Bellingcat/Ministry of Defense is saying. That being wars are not won at a granular level, and that videos of a helicopter being downed or a tank being captured does not make up for losing territory, being surrounded, and having no secure supply lines nor stockpiles.

This was the same issue the old nazis had; the belief that they were noble and fierce fighters, besting Russia handily in skill, and were merely devoured by the hordes of personnel. In reality the soviets were better at an operational scale, allocated their resources correctly, and put more weight on tactical gains than propaganda victories & individual soldier feats. History is a circle.

In what specific ways would you say Ukraine is like Nazi Germany, other than of course the point you've already made about their strategy against Russia?

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:34

KitConstantine: Jan 11, 2013

That Italian Guy posted:

Good to hear.

Also to give an idea about EU petrol prices after the start of the war...over here,was:

1.4€/L in April

1.55€/L in October

1.86€/L today

A gallon of gas is about 4$ in the US and it's about 8.1$ over here

Unfortunately, it's not actually fake
https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/1501231883681951746?t=dNho6xUQ3Vo0x59a5bYhVw&s=19

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:35

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

That Italian Guy posted:

Good to hear.

Also to give an idea about EU petrol prices after the start of the war...over here,was:

1.4�/L in April

1.55�/L in October

1.86�/L today

A gallon of gas is about 4$ in the US and it's about 8.1$ over here

That is an apocalypse price what the gently caress

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:36

DandyLion: Jun 24, 2010; disrespectul Deciever

Well I guess this is the painful kick in the pants the rest of us need to start investing in electric

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:38

KitConstantine: Jan 11, 2013

Side note: someone in Latvia making quite a statement
https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/1501233787107262477?t=a9N0SdkaMLtOSy7cwo4S4Q&s=19

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:38

Deltasquid: Apr 10, 2013; awww...
you guys made me ink!

THUNDERDOME

That Italian Guy posted:

Good to hear.

Also to give an idea about EU petrol prices after the start of the war...over here,was:

1.4�/L in April

1.55�/L in October

1.86�/L today

A gallon of gas is about 4$ in the US and it's about 8.1$ over here

Diesel in Belgium hit over 2 EUR / litre. Petrol is a bit lower, also around 1,80-1,90 depending on where you go and whether it�s euro 95 or euro 98 grade

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:39

That Italian Guy: Jul 25, 2012; We need the equivalent of the shrimp = small pastry avatar, but for ambulances and their mysteries now.

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

That is an apocalypse price what the gently caress

I mean, petrol has always been more expensive over here...but it's probably going to be a lot more expensive than it used to be real soon. Three days ago it was more than 2�/L at a pump in Galway.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:40

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

That is an apocalypse price what the gently caress

I assume Europeans tend to consume less gas per capita

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:40

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

That is an apocalypse price what the gently caress

Unlike Americans, Europeans don't spend the majority of their waking hours burning petrol for no good reason, so the prices reflect that.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:42

CSM: Jan 29, 2014; 56th Motorized Infantry 'Mariupol' Brigade
Seh' die Welt in Trummern liegen

This is interesting, on the loss of Kherson:

quote:

...

Despite near-frantic warnings from the White House of an imminent Russian invasion in the weeks before it actually happened on Feb. 24, the initial attack took Colonel Stetsenko�s unit by surprise, he said. His brigade was at a training exercise near the border with Crimea outside a town called Oleshky and only half assembled when it received the order to prepare for battle.

�If we had received the order three or four days before, we could have prepared, dug trenches,� he said.

That delay nearly led to his brigade�s destruction in the first hours of the war, he said.

The Russian force that poured out of Crimea was five times the size of his Ukrainian unit and quickly overwhelmed it. His brigade had no air support and few functional antiaircraft systems, because most had been sent to Kyiv to defend the capital. Much of the brigade�s tanks and armored fighting vehicles were destroyed in the initial attack by Russian aviation.

The brigade�s commander, Col. Oleksandr Vinogradov, had lost touch with military leadership and was forced to make decisions on the fly, said Colonel Stetsenko, who was with the commander throughout. Encircled and suffering heavy losses from strikes by Russian fighter jets, Colonel Vinogradov ordered his remaining tank and artillery units to punch a hole through a unit of Russian airborne assault troops that had positioned itself at the Ukrainian brigade�s rear.

The maneuver allowed the main Ukrainian fighting force to cross a bridge over the Dnieper River and retreat west about 45 miles to Mykolaiv, where it could regroup and link up with other units to continue the fight.

�The fighter jets of the enemy attacked our tanks, several tanks were hit and burned, and the rest remained and did not flee,� Colonel Stetsenko said. �They knew that behind them were other people, and they gave up their lives to break through the bridge to dig in on the other bank.�

The tactic worked, but the costs were steep. By falling back to Mykolaiv, Colonel Stetsenko�s brigade had to sacrifice Kherson, which on March 2 became the first major city to fall to the Russian forces. They had no choice, Colonel Stetsenko said. If they had tried to defend Kherson, Russian forces could have flanked them and cut them off, opening a road to the west, and to Odessa.

...

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/world/europe/ukraine-beats-russia-mykolaiv.html

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:43

That Italian Guy: Jul 25, 2012; We need the equivalent of the shrimp = small pastry avatar, but for ambulances and their mysteries now.

KitConstantine posted:

Unfortunately, it's not actually fake
https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/1501231883681951746?t=dNho6xUQ3Vo0x59a5bYhVw&s=19

That's still a bit unclear imo. We don't see who sent the email; it may be an official UN communication, but we don't know what kind of reach that email had. The article paints it as a "general stance" while it may be something sent by a russophile head of dept to their 5 immediate underlings. We'll see what kind of language the UN uses from now on for their comms.

That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Mar 8, 2022

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:43

Samael: Oct 16, 2012

Deltasquid posted:

Diesel in Belgium hit over 2 EUR / litre. Petrol is a bit lower, also around 1,80-1,90 depending on where you go and whether it�s euro 95 or euro 98 grade

Can confirm, in the UK I have seen �1.50 or so the cheapest and in some areas spiking even to around the �2 mark for a litre of petrol and I don't even live in London which I imagine it's a lot worse. It's getting pretty nuts around here.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:44

Mr. Fall Down Terror: Jan 24, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

That is an apocalypse price what the gently caress

there are a couple different approaches to why one would tax a thing. a lot of the time, taxes are assessed on goods to raise revenue for the state. sometimes however, taxes are used to offset some social cost or to discourage consumption of a good. think of some american states taxing cigarettes at a high level. european countries tend to place a very high tax on gasoline to discourage its use. belgium for example levies a tax of 0.6 euros per liter, which is equivalent to about 2.50 dollars per gallon, and netherlands taxes over three dollars per gallon

the united states depends on cheap gas or else cost of living gets out of control (due to decades of land use consumption patterns that assume cheap gas as an input) so there is more infrastructure to drive costs down as well as american gas taxes being minimal, solely used to fund road maintenance and little else

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:45

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; by Fluffdaddy
(and can't post for 6 days!)

the popes toes posted:

I think this will get walked back. Coming down hard on countries walking the tightrope between starvation and mere hunger (because of fertilizer shortages) isn't a useful bargaining strategy. Nor humane. So this kneejerk reaction will get swiftly moderated I believe.

Trying to find a source on this other than some advisor made a statement. Seems possible but weakly sourced

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:45

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Koos Group posted:

In what specific ways would you say Ukraine is like Nazi Germany, other than of course the point you've already made about their strategy against Russia?

A greater focus on propaganda victories than tangible victories is an obvious one.

For what it's worth, as I said in the Eastern Europe thread, I don't think Ukraine is dominated by nazis. That said, their presence, control over certain areas of the country, involvement in government 'security' affairs, and the proliferation of their ideals (lionizing Stepan Bandera the most obvious one) tends to be understated by those sympathetic towards their plight. But that's more for a general Ukraine/EE thread than the war specifically.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:45

Blitz of 404 Error: Sep 19, 2007; Joe Biden is a top 15 president

steinrokkan posted:

Unlike Americans, Europeans don't spend the majority of their waking hours burning petrol for no good reason, so the prices reflect that.

Wdym no good reason our country is the size of their continent

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:45

Mokotow: Apr 16, 2012

alex314 posted:

I have a couple Cobi sets, they are fine as long as you're not expecting Lego quality.

I have a problem with their �nazis vs Polish underground� building block set for kids aged 3 to 12

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:48

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Nessus posted:

I assume Europeans tend to consume less gas per capita

The worst country in Europe, Luxembourg, uses only a little over half of what the US does apparently. France is about a tenth.

Blitz of 404 Error posted:

Wdym no good reason our country is the size of their continent

It's hosed up that you have to commute cross-country, but that's just the way it is.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:48

That Italian Guy: Jul 25, 2012; We need the equivalent of the shrimp = small pastry avatar, but for ambulances and their mysteries now.

Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:

there are a couple different approaches to why one would tax a thing. a lot of the time, taxes are assessed on goods to raise revenue for the state. sometimes however, taxes are used to offset some social cost or to discourage consumption of a good. think of some american states taxing cigarettes at a high level. european countries tend to place a very high tax on gasoline to discourage its use. belgium for example levies a tax of 0.6 euros per liter, which is equivalent to about 2.50 dollars per gallon, and netherlands taxes over three dollars per gallon

the united states depends on cheap gas or else cost of living gets out of control (due to decades of land use consumption patterns that assume cheap gas as an input) so there is more infrastructure to drive costs down as well as american gas taxes being minimal, solely used to fund road maintenance and little else

This is a very good point. Ireland for example has a 55% tax rate on gas, so the increase in price is compounded. Note that the 1.77 price is a bit outdated as the price is rising visibily day after day:

EDIT: this was with oil at 94$/barrel :v:

That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Mar 8, 2022

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:49

Barrel Cactaur: Oct 6, 2021

Neurolimal posted:

A greater focus on propaganda victories than tangible victories is an obvious one.

For what it's worth, as I said in the Eastern Europe thread, I don't think Ukraine is dominated by nazis. That said, their presence, control over certain areas of the country, involvement in government 'security' affairs, and the proliferation of their ideals (lionizing Stepan Bandera the most obvious one) tends to be understated by those sympathetic towards their plight. But that's more for a general Ukraine/EE thread than the war specifically.

Okay how are they in control of certain areas of the country (barring "dead guy was a hero" takes without other policy)? Genuine question.

Also it's entirely possible to declare a temporary reduction in those gas taxes to keep it below a target price, though many states depend on that revenue outside the punitive portion.

Barrel Cactaur fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Mar 8, 2022

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:50

Son of Rodney: Feb 22, 2006; ohmygodohmygodohmygod

Blitz of 404 Error posted:

Wdym no good reason our country is the size of their continent

Yes, and? Roughly the same amount of population as well. How is this linked to the US using almost 4x the amount of gasoline per Capita than Europe?

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:50

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

i think i saw prices for gasoline at around E2,40/L in the netherlands

i have a car that i try not to use, but im really trying not to use it now

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:51

Dante: Feb 8, 2003

Alchenar posted:

If Ukraine survives this with territory mostly intact and can settle the border issue then I think NATO membership probably got a hell of a lot more likely. A) because popular sentiment in Europe is going to make it a lot harder to block, and b) because frankly Ukraine will get money to rebuilt its armed forces and Russia will not.

This was all predicated on a rapid Ukrainian collapse. Putin needs to keep going until he gets something he can call a win and doesn't have any off-ramps but there's no way any future Russian leader will ever contemplate something like this again, particularly if Ukraine is in NATO.

Any scenario where Ukraine can join NATO after this would basically mean a full Russian collapse and Putin out of power, which is great, but that's basically the best case scenario that looks unlikely as Putin looks to be secure. Maybe the most realistic option is that the war becomes to economically costly for Russia they pull troops back either entirely or to certain regions, and it becomes another one of the frozen conflicts in the region while Ukraine is militarized by a steady flow of western arms and aid to dissuade Russia from a repeat.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:51

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Blitz of 404 Error posted:

Wdym no good reason our country is the size of their continent

Driving across the continent to get to work as one does

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:51

FishMcCool: Apr 9, 2021; lolcats are still funny; Fallen Rib

That Italian Guy posted:

This is a very good point. Ireland for example has a 55% tax rate on gas, so the increase in price is compounded. Note that the 1.77 price is a bit outdated as the price is rising visibily day after day:

Think the local pump is over �2 per litre now. I feel smug with my EV right now, though obviously, electricity prices are also bound to go up.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:52

That Italian Guy: Jul 25, 2012; We need the equivalent of the shrimp = small pastry avatar, but for ambulances and their mysteries now.

Barrel Cactaur posted:

Okay how are they in control of certain areas of the country (barring "dead guy was a hero" takes without other policy)? Genuine question.

Ironically, Crimea and 2014 had a big impact in the level of nationalistic fervor in UA.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:52

Shifty Pony: Dec 28, 2004; Up ta somethin'

quote:

Also to give an idea about EU petrol prices after the start of the war...over here,was:

1.4�/L in April

1.55�/L in October

1.86�/L today

A gallon of gas is about 4$ in the US and it's about 8.1$ over here

Sure but the top three selling vehicles in the US are pickup trucks with real world fuel economies around 12-16mpg (19.6-14.7 l/100km).

Our automotive industry has been convincing people to keep buying stupidly large vehicles that they don't in any way need and those people are going to really feel it.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:53

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

That Italian Guy posted:

This is a very good point. Ireland for example has a 55% tax rate on gas, so the increase in price is compounded. Note that the 1.77 price is a bit outdated as the price is rising visibily day after day:

I feel like you could do something with these gas taxes to offset market instability. Like, just have the taxes go up if prices go down, and down if prices go up, so any change is lessened.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:53

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Shifty Pony posted:

Sure but the top three selling vehicles in the US are pickup trucks with real world fuel economies around 12-16mpg (19.6-14.7 l/100km).

Our automotive industry has been convincing people to keep buying stupidly large vehicles that they don't in any way need and those people are going to really feel it.

Good, gently caress them

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:54

a pipe smoking dog: Jan 25, 2010; "haha, dogs can't smoke!"

KitConstantine posted:

New maps just dropped.

Comparing current Russian positions vs March 1st. The fourth image directly compares where Russia has made advances vs where Ukraine has pushed them back
https://twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1501213722634764296?t=D7ofp6tOHD3VY-ngZPrwnw&s=19
Most uncontested Russian gains are in the south and further east, but it hasn't been a uniformly uncontested advance.

Note: the lines are darker on newer maps because the creator got complaints that the old ones were hard to read. The darker red doesn't indicate higher levels of control

What's with the weird Ukraine advance/salient in the north east? That just looks like a dumb move when they are struggling to hold the line elsewhere.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:54

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

Blitz of 404 Error posted:

Wdym no good reason our country is the size of their continent

I mean being big doesn�t mean our cities have to be built so everything�s far apart or that we have to buy trucks and suvs as grocery getters.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:54

That Italian Guy: Jul 25, 2012; We need the equivalent of the shrimp = small pastry avatar, but for ambulances and their mysteries now.

Shifty Pony posted:

Sure but the top three selling vehicles in the US are pickup trucks with real world fuel economies around 12-16mpg (19.6-14.7 l/100km).

Our automotive industry has been convincing people to keep buying stupidly large vehicles that they don't in any way need and those people are going to really feel it.

Fair enough, my current car (A rather new VW Polo) has a 1L/65hp engine :v:

EDIT: I was surprised how modern engines can keep a decent driving feel with such compact specs, coming from a 200X 2L turbodiesel VW Golf.

That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Mar 8, 2022

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:54

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

KitConstantine posted:

Side note: someone in Latvia making quite a statement
https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/1501233787107262477?t=a9N0SdkaMLtOSy7cwo4S4Q&s=19

For context: this is hung right across the Russian embassy, whose front door has a sizeable reflective area. Here's the view you get, trying to enter the Russian embassy:

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:54

Seamonster: Apr 30, 2007; IMMER SIEGREICH

A Buttery Pastry posted:

France is about a tenth.

The French burn diesel like its going out of style tho

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:55

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

a pipe smoking dog posted:

What's with the weird Ukraine advance/salient in the north east? That just looks like a dumb move when they are struggling to hold the line elsewhere.

An operation to relieve Kharkiv, and certainly not dumb, seeing as it was the most heavily shelled and most endangered major city at the time, and it worked.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:55

Mr. Fall Down Terror: Jan 24, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

Shifty Pony posted:

Our automotive industry has been convincing people to keep buying stupidly large vehicles that they don't in any way need

this is all consumer demand, american automakers have ceded the market for economical sedans to japanese automakers, and remain profitable selling stupid cultural signaling trucks to people who make a lifestyle out of consuming ridiculous amounts of gasoline

i have no sympathy

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

I mean being big doesn�t mean our cities have to be built so everything�s far apart or that we have to buy trucks and suvs as grocery getters.

age is more important than size in determining how spread out a city is. americans do prefer larger, heavier vehicles though and it is extremely dumb

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:55

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Deltasquid posted:

Diesel in Belgium hit over 2 EUR / litre. Petrol is a bit lower, also around 1,80-1,90 depending on where you go and whether it�s euro 95 or euro 98 grade

~2.20 EUR/litre around here in Germany right now. Combined with the heating and power bills it's a pretty hefty blow for a huge chunk of the population.

I guess everything will now depend on politics being able to actually produce some credible progress on decoupling from Russia and decarbonization. People are willing to cut down to some extend, but the sacrifice needs to be for some concrete and realistic long term goal.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:55

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 05:14

DaysBefore: Jan 24, 2019

Son of Rodney posted:

Yes, and? Roughly the same amount of population as well. How is this linked to the US using almost 4x the amount of gasoline per Capita than Europe?

Yeah isn't that just because of the inherent unwalkability of suburbs? You have to drive everywhere in the suburbs - and even some cities depending on how hard planners went on urban redevelopment in the 60s - hence more gas use. It's not like workers are commuting from Chicago to Dallas for their 9-5.

# ? Mar 8, 2022 17:56

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > READ OP! War in Ukraine: a distressed blender making too many margaritas at once

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