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Bholder posted:no, but let us lie to ourselves that just giving them weapons, patting them in the back and say "beat the russians for us" and expect everything to go well for them is incredibly naive. "For us"??? This isn't some cold war proxy war. Ukraine is pleading for assistance against an aggressor. This isn't a civil war - it is a country being invaded. Do not judge as if it were a symmetrical conflict with both parties sharing responsibility for the conflict. It is a war of conquest by a regime that is openly communicating revanchist expansionism, rejection of human rights, rejection of international law and already threatening multiple other countries that they're next for invasion. If anything it is immoral that the rest of Europe is not doing *more* to help Ukraine, because Ukrainians are dying by the thousands right now to stop a fascist despot from rampaging across Europe. A regime that helped bring Trump into power. A regime that is actively supporting polarization and extremism.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:21
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Bholder posted:Are we seriously going with the nazi comparisons? When both groups are white and the two cultures are quite close and similar? ....uh, do you think the Nazis didn't send Germans to the camps or something?
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Mar 13, 2022 22:22
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PederP posted:"For us"??? This isn't some cold war proxy war. Ukraine is pleading for assistance against an aggressor. This isn't a civil war - it is a country being invaded. Do not judge as if it were a symmetrical conflict with both parties sharing responsibility for the conflict. It is a war of conquest by a regime that is openly communicating revanchist expansionism, rejection of human rights, rejection of international law and already threatening multiple other countries that they're next for invasion. What you think NATO gives weapons to Ukraine because they truly care for their sovereignty? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 13, 2022 22:23
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Bholder posted:What you think NATO gives weapons to Ukraine because they truly care for their sovereignty? Not directly, it's a combination of not wanting Russia to grow more powerful and the demands of public opinion in NATO nations (which, in turn, is motivated by a variety of factors including concern for Ukraine's self-determination) Doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:26
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Bholder posted:What you think NATO gives weapons to Ukraine because they truly care for their sovereignty? YES
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Mar 13, 2022 22:26
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Bholder posted:What you think NATO gives weapons to Ukraine because they truly care for their sovereignty? NATO isn't giving weapons to Ukraine. Member countries are. Including my own, because we do care for the Ukrainian people and their right to not be invaded and massacred by war criminals. And because we're embarrassed that we can't intervene directly due to the risk of nuclear escalation.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:26
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PederP posted:NATO isn't giving weapons to Ukraine. Member countries are. Including my own, because we do care for the Ukrainian people and their right to not be invaded and massacred by war criminals. And because we're embarrassed that we can't intervene directly due to the risk of nuclear escalation.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:27
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1503108437642821638 https://mobile.twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1503109102012182533 guess is the deal won’t go anywhere. I still think the most workable option would be taking recognition of crimea, referendum in donbas, pledge to disband Azov or something. He then blames his henchmen for "special operation" taking longer then necessary, declares mission accomplished.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:27
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Bholder posted:What you think NATO gives weapons to Ukraine because they truly care for their sovereignty? Not all NATO countries are providing military aide. Not all countries providing military aide are in NATO. hth.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:28
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https://twitter.com/GuardianUS/status/1503081374915440644
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Mar 13, 2022 22:28
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Everyone is a nazi except putin here's a 10,000 word ramble on how the FSA, Ukraine and anyone else who is an enemy of Russia uses hospitals and civilians as shields against their tyranny Azov was using the children's cancer center as a mustard gas depot
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Mar 13, 2022 22:32
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Nessus posted:The attitude of 'submit to an invader because they will surely win anyway, so fighting back just means you get two rounds of devastation instead of one,' has a sort of implicit angle where this is perhaps true of "the invaded nation, as an entity," but is very much less true for, for instance, minority groups the invader disapproves of. The "roll over and submit" poo poo is tiring and I wish it weren't posted. But one of the strangest things about this conflict is the instant liberalization and, for the lack of a better word, "westernization" of Ukraine in the minds of foreigners. Do you think Ukraine is really so much better about minority groups than Russia that an invasion makes it dangerous for them to exist? Political dissidents and Ukrainian ultranationalists are going to have unique problems. But unfortunately, Ukrainians also loving hate LGBTQ people. And so does Georgia and Moldova and Armenia and Belarus and Kazakhstan and so on.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:32
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A month ago Russia willingly asking to become a Chinese proxy in a proxy war with the West over Ukraine would have seemed the Clancyest of Clancychat yet here we are. What a timeline we live in. Also as a general rule the INVADER asking for military assistance after the war has already started has to be just deeply embarrassing.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:34
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Tweet linking to a Guardian article about war crimes against rural Ukrainian population. https://twitter.com/_EmmaGH/status/1503111085435535367?cxt=HHwWjoCylbDkj9wpAAAA Something to keep in mind about this story: rural populations in Ukraine are more likely to be primarily Ukrainian speakers. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Mar 13, 2022 |
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Mar 13, 2022 22:34
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mobby_6kl posted:Well finding an acceptable solution which didn't involve Putin looking like a loser idiot was always the challenge, considering the situation he got himself into. Putin would never accept a free referendum in the separatist areas of Ukraine because he would lose. Polls consistently show large majorities of Ukrainians don't want them to break away. One poll from 2017 has 80% in the whole country and 73% of people in Donbas want to remain in Ukraine.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:34
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OddObserver posted:https://twitter.com/_EmmaGH/status/1503111085435535367?cxt=HHwWjoCylbDkj9wpAAAA Another thing to keep in mind: Russia has a history of ethnic cleansing in EVERY conflict they've engaged in during the last 20 years, and Putin's goal in invading Ukraine is to eliminate Ukrainian cultural ideals and replace them with Russian ones. Take that, combined with the documented black bagging, torture, and likely execution of 'undesirables' that 'Russia has a list to capture' and you are getting dangerously close to genocide.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:36
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mobby_6kl posted:Well finding an acceptable solution which didn't involve Putin looking like a loser idiot was always the challenge, considering the situation he got himself into. I think best option for Putin is to do a very superficial attack against NATO in outrage over some stupid poo poo, while declaring "Come fight the glorious might of Russia, western dogs! We warn you that attacks against Russian territory or cities will be met with retribution, and we warn you that we will respond against escalation but we will not bring about the apocalypse!" Then when NATO and Ukraine send the Russian forces packing, call for a ceasefire in the name of the poor civilians being hit by reckless NATO attacks. At the peace-table, demand Donbass and Crimea. Get told you can't have Donbass. Demand Crimea and whine to China in private. Get Crimea and go home telling the people how you had almost liberated Ukraine from the nazis, but then the NATO nazis started bombing Ukrainians and Russians, so you had to make the smart decision. But you will rebuild and get revenge on those Nazis later. Nah, probably not a realistic option - but it's either some insane brinkmanship like that, take Kyiv and sue for peace or get completely humiliated. I think they're trying for Kyiv right now. If it fails? Crazy brinkmanship stunts are up next, I think. And no, I do not think there is any risk of a nuclear escalation. Nor that NATO will just be threatened into letting Putin do whatever.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:36
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:The "roll over and submit" poo poo is tiring and I wish it weren't posted. But one of the strangest things about this conflict is the instant liberalization and, for the lack of a better word, "westernization" of Ukraine in the minds of foreigners. Do you think Ukraine is really so much better about minority groups than Russia that an invasion makes it dangerous for them to exist? Political dissidents and Ukrainian ultranationalists are going to have unique problems. But unfortunately, Ukrainians also loving hate LGBTQ people. And so does Georgia and Moldova and Armenia and Belarus and Kazakhstan and so on. If Putin brought out the Good Army and won, would he execute every gay person in Ukraine? Shoot every Ukrainian Orthodox cleric? No, of course he wouldn't. He probably couldn't if he wanted to. Could life become much much worse for a queer person in Kyiv if Kyiv was under Russian military authority? Or a trans person? Or someone who could be found online? Worse enough that it might seem like a very good idea to consider a quick relocation to Warsaw or Berlin? Very likely. Even the lists that appear to exist, these would probably not lead to every person on those lists being killed. Many would simply be watched, or threatened, or put in jail for a bit. But probably some would be killed... and how are you going to handicap those odds in your head?
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Mar 13, 2022 22:38
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mobby_6kl posted:Well finding an acceptable solution which didn't involve Putin looking like a loser idiot was always the challenge, considering the situation he got himself into. One of the reasons I don't really buy that Putin is being driven by the need to look strong to Russian audiences is the fact that they've left reality behind some time ago when it comes to their propaganda. Russia could announce that they conquered Kyiv this morning and Ukraine agreed to imprison all the nazis in their government and army. It would be just as true as all the other poo poo they've been saying, either you believe the whole lot or you already know how badly Putin hosed up. Not that much of this war has made rational sense, but this is just another thing that I don't fully understand.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:38
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1503108437642821638 https://mobile.twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1503109102012182533 guess is the deal won’t go anywhere. I thought the Ukrainian negotiator corroborated that there was meaningful progress tho.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:38
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:The "roll over and submit" poo poo is tiring and I wish it weren't posted. But one of the strangest things about this conflict is the instant liberalization and, for the lack of a better word, "westernization" of Ukraine in the minds of foreigners. Do you think Ukraine is really so much better about minority groups than Russia that an invasion makes it dangerous for them to exist? Political dissidents and Ukrainian ultranationalists are going to have unique problems. But unfortunately, Ukrainians also loving hate LGBTQ people. And so does Georgia and Moldova and Armenia and Belarus and Kazakhstan and so on. Er, there are actual pride rallies in Ukraine. And yes, while at lot of the population would rather see them gone, in Ukraine the police is at the rallies to protect them from the outsiders. Whereas in Russia, if you try to organize one the police will show up to beat the poo poo out of you. Yes, there is a rather loving massive difference. And this is not some loving hypothetical either. When the Russians rolled up, they came with lists, and took the people on those list away. LGBT activists were on those lists. Many of those people have not been heard of or seen since. So gently caress right off with your inane both sides bullshit.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:38
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1503108437642821638 https://mobile.twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1503109102012182533 guess is the deal won’t go anywhere. Didn't Zelensky's advisor say that it sounded like the Russians were actually listening to the proposals? Also I don't see how Bellingcat views this as a vague threat https://twitter.com/Podolyak_M/status/1502981938277191683
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Mar 13, 2022 22:39
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:The "roll over and submit" poo poo is tiring and I wish it weren't posted. But one of the strangest things about this conflict is the instant liberalization and, for the lack of a better word, "westernization" of Ukraine in the minds of foreigners. Do you think Ukraine is really so much better about minority groups than Russia that an invasion makes it dangerous for them to exist? Political dissidents and Ukrainian ultranationalists are going to have unique problems. But unfortunately, Ukrainians also loving hate LGBTQ people. And so does Georgia and Moldova and Armenia and Belarus and Kazakhstan and so on. I mean you aren't wrong about smoothing out rough parts but that's a really weird example. Ukraine has issues with LGBTQ people but has been on a trend upwards towards acceptance and inclusivity. They still aren't great but they've done things like allowing gay/bisexual men to donate blood before the US did and have actual legal protections in place, whereas Russia has been trending backwards and seen an increase in violence and harm to LGBTQ groups. People blame the former on wanting to join the EU or whatever but that doesn't change things. You are absolutely going to be worse off in a Russia-controlled Ukraine then you are in Ukraine, to the point where it may go from "kind of lovely" to "unlivable." When you are LGBTQ unfortunately you often have learned to deal with "kind of lovely" but that doesn't mean you're going to feel the same way under a new government.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:40
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Do you think Ukraine is really so much better about minority groups than Russia that an invasion makes it dangerous for them to exist? Political dissidents and Ukrainian ultranationalists are going to have unique problems. But unfortunately, Ukrainians also loving hate LGBTQ people. And so does Georgia and Moldova and Armenia and Belarus and Kazakhstan and so on.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:40
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ImpAtom posted:I mean you aren't wrong about smoothing out rough parts but that's a really weird example. Its no secret to that Russia is well liked among Evangelicals for their negative treatment of LGBTQ issues. Ukraine, which not much better, has largely started toward progressive views of LGBTQ.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:41
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The ever elusive equal of two evils argument
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Mar 13, 2022 22:42
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Nessus posted:I'm not gonna valorize Ukraine beyond "they had a democratic election and their democratically elected leader is putting his rear end at least kind of on the line." But there are degrees of such things. Yeah, and this is why it's so infuriating when posters talk about how, since Russia wouldn't wipe out every last LGBTQ individual, political opponent, etc., that it still isn't going to be so bad that it justifies Ukraine continuing to resist. Apparently anything less than 100% cleansing of a targeted group, warrants capitulation, even if a significant number of individuals will suffer. But hey, they won't ALL suffer! Edit: Tuna-Fish posted:So gently caress right off with your inane both sides bullshit. This is a bit harsh - I think there has been some overlooking of Ukrainian internal issues, and I think it's absolutely something that needs to be addressed in the future, but during an active invasion by Russia that seeks to end Ukraine's existing sovereignty in its current form, is probably not the time to do so. Canned Sunshine fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Mar 13, 2022 |
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Mar 13, 2022 22:44
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PederP posted:"For us"??? This isn't some cold war proxy war. Ukraine is pleading for assistance against an aggressor. I think it's clearly both. "We" are not just helping because they need help. We help because it's good for us.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:45
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Ukraine is so much better not just for minorities of all kinds, but increasingly for absolutely everybody, Russia isn't just an ultra conservative hellscape, it's a paranoid dictatorship that is an existential thread to anybody within its domain with any inklings of independent thought. Not being at the mercy of a brutal police state every waking moment of your life should be an obvious "thing".
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Mar 13, 2022 22:47
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KingColliwog posted:I think it's clearly both. Yeah, but it's not an impressive observation, it's literally just how international relations work. Nations help each other out of some level of self interest.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:47
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Listen. War? It's bad. And that's why genocide is actually okay; it's not war. The invaders have decided it's time for you to die, line up now. Isn't this better than fighting?
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Mar 13, 2022 22:48
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Chalks posted:Yeah, but it's not an impressive observation, it's literally just how international relations work. Nations help each other out of some level of self interest. Only the worst, most malevolent actors should be allowed to act, everybody else should just commit a collective suicide out of anxiety over potentially doing an interest.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:48
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SourKraut posted:Yeah, and this is why it's so infuriating when posters talk about how, since Russia wouldn't wipe out every last LGBTQ individual, political opponent, etc., that it still isn't going to be so bad that it justifies Ukraine continuing to resist. Yeah gently caress this. Russia as it exists today is a reactionary society attempting to revert our lives back to an era resembling the Congress of Vienna. The world should resist this with everything it has. Anything short of a full scale violent military resistance against Russia is basically defeatism and collaborator bullshit that nobody here should countenance. There is no negotiating with Vladimir Putin. He only understand violence and he should he violently punished.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:49
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https://twitter.com/axios/status/1503126471682019332 So the power plant is safe again. Hopefully.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:52
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Douche Wolf 89 posted:The ever elusive equal of two evils argument Coupled with, "they are culturally similar" is an argument Europe has heard before can't remember when.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:55
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steinrokkan posted:Ukraine is so much better not just for minorities of all kinds, but increasingly for absolutely everybody, Russia isn't just an ultra conservative hellscape, it's a paranoid dictatorship that is an existential thread to anybody within its domain with any inklings of independent thought. Not being at the mercy of a brutal police state every waking moment of your life should be an obvious "thing". 2012  2021  Russia probably wouldn't put gays and ukrainain speakers in camps but there's no way it would be nice for anyone involved.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:55
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mobby_6kl posted:I think there's no need to pretend that Ukraine isn't a poor shithole (I'm allowed to say that okay) but Ukraine never invaded anyone and has been trying to improve things through alignment with western europe. drat Malta, making moves.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:57
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mobby_6kl posted:I think there's no need to pretend that Ukraine isn't a poor shithole (I'm allowed to say that okay) but Ukraine never invaded anyone and has been trying to improve things through alignment with western europe. It's a poor shithole, but not nearly a totalitarian poor shithole, unlike a certain other place, IMO, which is something with fighting for. To bring it back to Godwin, I wouldn't argue for Nazi Germany to annex Russia to teach them about the economy of modern agricultural methods.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:59
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sniper4625 posted:drat Malta, making moves. Montenegro is showing the neighborhood the way, as well. Didn't know that.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:01
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Yeah, I wonder what's up with Malta. Also Belgium topping the list of respecters of human rights is, uh, an interesting turnaround from their colonial past to say the least. Edit: Whoops, looked closer and realized the map was specifically for LGBTQ rights, my bad.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:01
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