|
Seen this floating around but unable to ascertain if it is contemporary or from years ago? https://twitter.com/DelftXyz/status/1502779217771171841
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 03:36 |
|
|
Willo567 posted:Didn't Zelensky's advisor say that it sounded like the Russians were actually listening to the proposals? Also I don't see how Bellingcat views this as a vague threat I mean, what else are the advisors going to say? They don't lose anything by saying "Oh it looks like they're finally listening, and we aren't giving up on any of our red lines" where saying "they clearly aren't negotiating in good faith but we are going to keep wasting our time" sounds worse. Staying at the table is better for Ukraine. As for the threat - I think the idea is "We'll come to an agreement in two to three days...or else there won't be an agreement on the table any more" The thing is the negotiations between 'advisors' don't really matter. Putin is all that matters. He's a supreme dictator with a very small circle that he actually listens to and none of them are at the negotiating table. All these takes saying "Putin can back off and just blame his advisors for misleading him!" assume that Putin is okay with appearing to be misled and is willing to change course. The fact that he has the heads of his spy agency under house arrest for lying about how easy it would be to take Ukraine doesn't make me think that's a very palatable option for him. Putin wanted this war. He wants to conquer Ukraine. Any agreements that stop short of that are likely going to be a hard sell, especially if he still has people in his ear telling him that they can turn this thing around.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:08
|
|
|
the popes toes posted:Seen this floating around but unable to ascertain if it is contemporary or from years ago? Yeah, that's the other main concern right now: Russia keeps implying that this will not be their only operation, so all the Eastern Europeans countries not in NATO or even otherwise are freaked out.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:09
|
|
|
Reuters is reporting that the Chinese US embassy deny having heard of the request for military equipment, and emphasize that "The high priority now is to prevent the tense situation from escalating or even getting out of control."
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:10
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Yeah, that's the other main concern right now: Russia keeps implying that this will not be their only operation, so all the Eastern Europeans countries not in NATO or even otherwise are freaked out. many conservative commentators and analysts with close links to the bush administration were pretty open about iran being next after iraq, of course, that never happened. russia isn't a monolith.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:11
|
|
|
PederP posted:They know NATO will never fire the first nuke People here always say this, and I think we have good reason to believe it's true, but considering the apparent endemic levels of misinformation being fed upwards in Russia.... I'm not sure they believe this.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:12
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Yeah, that's the other main concern right now: Russia keeps implying that this will not be their only operation, so all the Eastern Europeans countries not in NATO or even otherwise are freaked out. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:12
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:many conservative commentators and analysts with close links to the bush administration were pretty open about iran being next after iraq, of course, that never happened. russia isn't a monolith. I get what you're trying to say but Iran had every possible reason to be concerned about that fear and TBH still does.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:12
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Yeah, that's the other main concern right now: Russia keeps implying that this will not be their only operation, so all the Eastern Europeans countries not in NATO or even otherwise are freaked out. Seems as though NATO expansion to present day membership might have been useful decisions for the newest members.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:12
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:The "roll over and submit" poo poo is tiring and I wish it weren't posted. But one of the strangest things about this conflict is the instant liberalization and, for the lack of a better word, "westernization" of Ukraine in the minds of foreigners. Do you think Ukraine is really so much better about minority groups than Russia that an invasion makes it dangerous for them to exist? Political dissidents and Ukrainian ultranationalists are going to have unique problems. But unfortunately, Ukrainians also loving hate LGBTQ people. And so does Georgia and Moldova and Armenia and Belarus and Kazakhstan and so on. I don’t think they get “westernised” a lot. Newspapers are full of opinion columns like “whoa, did you know these Russian orientals have cinemas?” that, if anything, show the opposite beliefs. That said, on your question - for minorities just take a look what happened to Crimean Tatars after Russian occupation. Displaced Tatars hardly want more of the same, and same goes for other Ukrainian minorities. LGBT rights? Measurably better than in Russia, and a lot of other Eastern European countries, some EU members including. I struggle to identify a disparaged group that has nothing to lose under Putin’s yoke.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:13
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:many conservative commentators and analysts with close links to the bush administration were pretty open about iran being next after iraq, of course, that never happened. russia isn't a monolith. Yeah but you also have a country actively lashing out, we'll see.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:15
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I get what you're trying to say but Iran had every possible reason to be concerned about that fear and TBH still does. And there have been plenty of media pieces on Fox using graphics to spitball horrifying Pax America ideas using maps.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:15
|
|
|
Just saw this floating around. No idea who they are, proably the usual dozen useful idiots russian agents managed to find in a dumpster Concerned Citizen posted:many conservative commentators and analysts with close links to the bush administration were pretty open about iran being next after iraq, of course, that never happened. russia isn't a monolith. Iran would've been next if Iraq wasn't such a disaster. So I think it's safe to say the baltics are safe 
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:18
|
|
|
the popes toes posted:Seen this floating around but unable to ascertain if it is contemporary or from years ago? This is from Friday I think. I saw a lot of posts about it yesterday. In other news the Melitopol government and people in Melitopol are reporting that a 200-vehicle column was taken out by Ukrainian forces 2.5 hours ago. https://twitter.com/IntelCrab/status/1503126946372362240?s=20&t=4DxIfQbsZoc5wIdK0fjcrg https://twitter.com/IntelArrow/status/1503131071277379591?s=20&t=4DxIfQbsZoc5wIdK0fjcrg Not yet visually confirmed because it's night time so we'll have to see what morning brings
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:18
|
|
|
KitConstantine posted:I mean, what else are the advisors going to say? They don't lose anything by saying "Oh it looks like they're finally listening, and we aren't giving up on any of our red lines" where saying "they clearly aren't negotiating in good faith but we are going to keep wasting our time" sounds worse. Staying at the table is better for Ukraine. this. i think Ukraine is open to various obvious concessions like letting Russia keep crimea and their lovely rump states. but i doubt they will sign off on disarmament or other stuff. also no matter what putin does now he is hosed and will look weak as gently caress domestically and i doubt the sanctions going away right now. nor are many western corps coming back. CommieGIR posted:Yeah, that's the other main concern right now: Russia keeps implying that this will not be their only operation, so all the Eastern Europeans countries not in NATO or even otherwise are freaked out. yeah. i will be the gross american dickhead armchair brain and say Putin will never stop until his army fully implodes as does his economy and he is either turned into the king of a dying isolated state or dead in some room somewhere with a rag in his mouth when some part of the goverment crack pings and does him in to save themselves. Putin will keep pushing and pushing and going farther.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:19
|
|
|
the popes toes posted:Seems as though NATO expansion to present day membership might have been useful decisions for the newest members. i personally do not think the invasion of ukraine would have ever happened if we had decided not to enlarge nato. any hopes of maintaining the rapprochement between the west and russia were effectively erased by the decision to offer a bunch of countries, essentially, security guarantees for bases. there was no rational reason to offer those countries guarantees other than as a check on russia, so it was (correctly) interpreted as a hostile action designed to degrade russia's security. and that then proceeded to embolden russian hardliners who saw this as clear-cut evidence that the west had no intention of ever allowing russia to become powerful or successful again.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:20
|
|
|
As to the argument that anti-gay and white extremists presence in Ukraine should modify our support. A perspective from https://jewishreviewofbooks.com/articles/963/the-ukrainian-question/ In 1980, when the Solidarity movement confronted the Poland’s Communist regime and its Soviet patrons, Jewish observers were torn between sympathy for its democratic struggle (full disclosure: I was part of it) and concerns about its Catholic and nationalistic ideology, as well as a resurgence of anti-Semitism in some parts of the movement. Even as late as the mid-1990s, when a now-free Poland was lobbying for NATO membership, some critics considered it too stained by anti-Semitism to qualify. Most Polish Jews rejected this opinion (full disclosure: I did too), and the country eventually gained admittance. Twenty-five years after the fall of Communism, Poland—a NATO and EU member, a U.S. ally in Iraq and Afghanistan with a surprisingly resilient market economy and a boringly predictable democracy—has a small but thriving Jewish community, of which most Poles are justifiably proud . . . and an anti-Semitic minority that will not go away. Had we failed in our freedom bid, Poland would probably look like Belarus today—a grotesque Stalinist parody of a state that jails people for standing in the street in mute protest. The people of Ukraine are trying to do today what we in Poland did a generation ago. If they fail, Ukraine will probably look much more like Belarus than Poland.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:20
|
|
|
KitConstantine posted:This is from Friday I think. I saw a lot of posts about it yesterday.  If this is confirmed that's a freaking monumental level of catastrophe.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:20
|
|
|
I'm obviously not going to engage with anyone who just tells me to gently caress off.ImpAtom posted:I mean you aren't wrong about smoothing out rough parts but that's a really weird example. We're mostly aligned here, because I'm not trying to make an argument that Ukraine isn't better on the equality front than Russia. For almost everyone, it is better for your government to be an almost-functional democracy rather than an authoritarian system that habitually murders political dissidents. Putin shuts down activism far more than a Ukrainian government ever will, and yes, there have been decent institutional strides towards acceptance in recent years. If you're a minority facing discrimination, it is clearly better to live in a place where activists that support you are allowed to exist. But outside of Kyiv, you have to keep your loving head down, which is why I am deeply bothered by people playing this up as an existential threat. This is a nation where statements like "homosexuality should be acceptable in society" have single-digit support. Even for minorities, the day-to-day is not likely to look any different under Russian control. I also want to shut down the "why haven't Ukrainians just give up???" nonsense, but it's absolutely wild to me how people have both minimized how bad Ukraine really is with this poo poo while acting like Russia is about to go on a Holocaust because they arrest dissidents. I don't think I'd be bothered by the latter if people weren't doing the former, because sure, Putin is trash.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:20
|
|
|
BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:But outside of Kyiv, you have to keep your loving head down, which is why I am deeply bothered by people playing this up as an existential threat. This is a nation where statements like "homosexuality should be acceptable in society" have single-digit support. Even for minorities, the day-to-day is not likely to look any different under Russian control. I also want to shut down the "why haven't Ukrainians just give up???" nonsense, but it's absolutely wild to me how people have both minimized how bad Ukraine really is with this poo poo while acting like Russia is about to go on a Holocaust because they arrest dissidents. I don't think I'd be bothered by the latter if people weren't doing the former, because sure, Putin is trash. Perhaps they do, but they elected a leader and a government and they have been attacked unprovoked by Russia. It isn't even 'we are securing our new brothers we recognized in the East,' Putin gave a big speech about how Ukraine is a made-up idea Lenin pooped out one day.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:25
|
|
|
Russia will demand that NATO receeds to its pre-1997 borders
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:25
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Yeah but you also have a country actively lashing out, we'll see. Why would Russia want NATO to get involve at this stage? Because that's what will happen if they invade a NATO country
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:25
|
|
|
Not to mention that Ukraine actually has elections and multiple political parties. They're seeking EU membership, which is a pretty big step towards rule of law, human rights, etc. Russia has completely dropped any pretense at democracy. It's not even a one-party system. It's a one-man system. That's really what some people are missing when they're focusing on "let's just end this war and the problems will stop - nothing can be worse than war, right?" The problem with Russia right now isn't just that they rank poorly on various indices of rights, democracy, development etc. It's that they're an expansionist fascist dictatorship brazenly committing war crimes and threatening the world with nukes if they don't get to invade whenever and however they like. There are very few meaningful "but actually" in that situation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:25
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Russia will demand that NATO receeds to its pre-1997 borders this. i think putin is gonna put a bunch of poison pills in the negotiations so it dies and he can claim that it was "good faith".
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:26
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Russia will demand that NATO receeds to its pre-1997 borders Which was, basically, a serious request Putin had made to NOT invade. He demanded NATO retreat to west of the Polish border. Which of course was a non-starter.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:27
|
|
|
the popes toes posted:Seen this floating around but unable to ascertain if it is contemporary or from years ago? I looked into it, and from what I found it seems to be at least a couple of months old. The host is discussing a russian attack plan as 'the West' is envisioning it. We have no such plans, he says. Someone who understands russian or knows more could provide more details. Anyway this seems to be part of russian propaganda. But I highly doubt they would broadcast detailed attack plans. Tarnek fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Mar 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:30
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:
There's video of a Bayraktar strike on what's reported to be an artillery command post, which is part of the claims in the Telegram post so ???  as it's video of a vehicle full of soldiers getting blown uphttps://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1503133936595181574?s=20&t=4DxIfQbsZoc5wIdK0fjcrg
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:30
|
|
|
the popes toes posted:Seen this floating around but unable to ascertain if it is contemporary or from years ago? This was before the invasion, at the height of the 'ha-ha, silly Americans with their fake invasion dates' narrative.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:31
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:this. i think putin is gonna put a bunch of poison pills in the negotiations so it dies and he can claim that it was "good faith". well, if the war is going badly for russia, i don't think this is true. they need a deal.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:31
|
|
|
KitConstantine posted:There's video of a Bayraktar strike on what's reported to be an artillery command post, which is part of the claims in the Telegram post so ??? There doesn't seem to be anything else though, and they are usually quick to post them. It would hardly be the first time some extraordinary claim was made.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:31
|
|
|
Willo567 posted:Why would Russia want NATO to get involve at this stage? Because that's what will happen if they invade a NATO country Domestic reasons... they need to sell the hardship to the Russian people and much easier to do that with NATO involved than explain how fluent russian-speaking Ukrainians are actually Nazis. Plus a lot less Russian cross-border family ties in some of those countries.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:32
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:Just saw this floating around. No idea who they are, proably the usual dozen useful idiots russian agents managed to find in a dumpster https://twitter.com/cpi_usa/status/1232139111235907586 744 Twitter dot com followers and an inactive account, so yeah pretty much
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:34
|
|
|
I don't think I have seen this posted ITT. Great read... https://twitter.com/ramez/status/1502895847301812224
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:34
|
|
|
TheRat posted:There doesn't seem to be anything else though, and they are usually quick to post them. It would hardly be the first time some extraordinary claim was made. Even at the time of the strike it was between 9 and 10pm, so not great photo taking conditions. If it happened and any video/images come out I would guess they will likely come out tomorrow.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:34
|
|
|
ummel posted:https://twitter.com/cpi_usa/status/1232139111235907586 Okay woah if Putin has Gundams everybody is going to need to rethink some things
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:35
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:i personally do not think the invasion of ukraine would have ever happened if we had decided not to enlarge nato. Arguing that a sovereign state should not belong to a purely defensive alliance is based on subscribing to sphere of interest politics: a get out of jail free card to anyone with attractive neighbors. And the rejection of sphere of influence politics, the denial of those politics, would be a welcome 21st century movement forward from 18th, 19th and 20th century imperial ambition and excuses.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:35
|
|
|
KitConstantine posted:In other news the Melitopol government and people in Melitopol are reporting that a 200-vehicle column was taken out by Ukrainian forces 2.5 hours ago. If this is true I really want to see the face of that Oryx guy as he sees that news and starts looking through the photo evidence. Man's gonna need an industrial pallet's worth of Red Bull and headache pills.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:35
|
|
|
radicaldreamer posted:Domestic reasons... they need to sell the hardship to the Russian people and much easier to do that with NATO involved than explain how fluent russian-speaking Ukrainians are actually Nazis. Plus a lot less Russian cross-border family ties in some of those countries. Yes Moscow being reduced to an irradiated crater would be awesome for Putin domestically.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:36
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:well, if the war is going badly for russia, i don't think this is true. they need a deal. Unfortunately i don't think it's bad enough for them yet. They're still camping near Kyiv so they can keep whining about civilians living there while shelling everything around for a while SirTagz posted:I don't think I have seen this posted ITT. Great read... mobby_6kl fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Mar 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 03:36 |
|
|
Telsa Cola posted:I've been mulling this over the past couple days and I honestly believe that some of you people are so, so so god drat white that you just don't understand what happens to people in conquered lands especially when concepts of race and culture are being tossed around. Yeah and I think the assertion that Ukraine is either bad or not deserving of assistance because nazis is the height of western privilege. It’s one thing to post about ideological purity from the safety of your gooncave in a relatively safe western nation but when your country faces an imminent existential threat and cultural genocide I think you’d be justified in accepting whoever is willing to hold a gun to defend their country. Some of the sentiments I’ve seen posted on these forums reek of the sort of puerile black and white analysis I’d expect to see from deadshit conservatives, not leftists.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2022 23:38
|
|
